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HomeMy WebLinkAboutWK January 25, 2005 ~f '\ '--) ,-) ) CilL"-L~-t.- CGv Lu'L/trtt.i\ ~ -l 6 -os 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER, MINNESOTA 55304 . (763) 755-5100 FAX (763) 755-8923. WWW.CI.ANDOVER.MN.US City Council Workshop Miscellaneous Business Items Tuesday, January 25, 2005 Conference Rooms A & B I. Call to Order - 6:00 pm 2. Discuss Taking Back Private Streets - Engineering 3. Discuss Information for Tulip Street NW - Engineering 4. Continue Discussion/Road Improvement Funding Policy - Eng./Planning/Admin. 5. Traffic Impact Studies -Eng./Planning/Admin. 6. Discuss Community Center Advisory Board/Schedule Interviews - Administration 7. Other Business 8. Adjournment ,-, u (J C) ANDOVER CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP - JANUARY 25, 2005 MINUTES A Workshop of the Andover City Council was called to order by Mayor Mike Gamache, January 25, 2005,6:08 p.rn., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Councilmembers present: Don Councilmember Jacobson, Mike Knight, Ken Orttel, Julie Trude None' City Engineer, Dave Berkowitz City Administrator, Jim Dickinson Community Developrnent Director, Will Neumeister Councilmember absent: Also present: AGENDA APPROVAL The agenda was approved as presented. DISCUSS TAKING BACK PRIVATE STREETS City Engineer Berkowitz advised that the Shadowbrook Cove Townhome Association has requested staff give them direction on how to proceed with converting the private streets in their development, which include Butternut Street NW and 142nd Lane NW, to public streets. The Andover Review Committee reviewed the request and responded with six minimum requirements to rnove forward with this request. City Engineer Berkowitz stated the City Council is requested to discuss the request to turn back private streets to public. If the City Council authorizes the turn back, staffwill proceed with the six items listed on the attached letter and bring information back to the Council for formal approval. Councilmember Trude asked if the Public Works Department could plow the narrow streets without impacting the windows, etc. on the homes because of their close setbacks. City Engineer Berkowitz stated staff has reviewed this with Public Works, and they did have concerns that the streets are more narrow than standard, but there are other streets in the city with this width of25 feet as well. City Administrator Dickinson asked if the setbacks of the homes would be an issue. City Engineer Berkowitz stated he does not think they will be. He indicated there is a 50 foot easement, so there is 25 to 30 feet of clearance in most cases. Mr. Dan Lehrer, Homeowner Association President, stated Butternut is actually a hill, so a plow could not go more than 15 mph anyway, and there is also a curve so they would have to go slow. I ~ Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting \._J Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page 2 Mayor Gamache asked if the plows the Association has been using are srnall plows or the size the City uses. Mr. Lehrer indicated they use a landscape service with a plow on a pick-up truck. Councilrnember Trude asked if staff has talked about the area where the street does not connect to the public road. She stated if it could be connected it would be easier for the plows to come in. City Engineer Berkowitz stated the city would have to acquire property to do that, and there are private driveways there for four to six homes, so it is not a likely acquisition. Councilmember Knight asked why the Association wants to make these public streets. Mr. Lehrer stated it has come to their attention that they are paying taxes for this street, without a reduction because it is a private road. He indicated these are the only two private streets in the city, and they do not want them anymore. Councilmember Trude stated she thought when this developrnent was done that the private streets were a selling point, and she remembers there were tradeoffs made because this would be a private street and the City would not have to maintain it. Councilmernber Orttel stated it was obviously a mistake, and no other streets have been approved as private streets since then. (J Councilrnember Orttel asked if parking would becorne a legal issue on the streets. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated it is in the covenants that you cannot park on. the street, and the police department would be enforcing that if they were public streets. Mr. Lehrer indicated there is only one neighbor who may have an issue with no parking on the streets, but it is in their covenants that you cannot park on them. Councilrnember Trude stated that because of the narrowness of the streets they may want to have something in writing that the city does not have liability from rocks being thrown from plows or sprinkler head damage, etc. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated the sprinklers are all in the easement, so it is understood it is the homeowner's responsibility if there is any damage. Councilrnember Trude asked if they have looked at the cost of the fIrst seal coat. Mr. Lehrer stated it would be about $5,000, and the Association will pay for that with money from their street fund. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated they would want the seal coating done this year. Councilrnember Trude indicated the Association needs to understand the standard for plowing may change. She stated when done by a private contractor it is usually completed in two to three hours, and it could take six or eight hours now. Mr. Lehrer stated they have discussed that, and are okay with the possible change. C) The Council directed staff to continue pursuing the steps necessary to make Butternut Street NW and 1420d Lane NW public streets. DISCUSS INFORMATION FOR TULIP STREET NW r, Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting V Minutes -January 25,2005 Page 3 City Engineer Berkowitz advised that at the December 7, 2004 City Council meeting Councilmember Knight requested that staff look into the possibility of paving Tulip Street NW north of 161st Avenue NW to 300 feet north of I 68th Lane NW. Staff researched this and the information that has been gathered includes a resident survey, accident data from January 2000 to December 2004 and the Average Daily Traffic from 2000 and estimated ADT for 2020. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated that fourteen resident surveys were sent out to get feedback and thoughts on the need for Tulip Street NW to be improved. Eleven survey responses were returned. He stated five residents are for the improvement. Concerns include lowering the speed limit, improving safety by straightening out the curve section, the value of an assessrnent to each property and if properties are assessed, what is a fair and proportionate share. He noted that one resident did not check if they were for the improvement or not, but did make comments. The remaining five responses were against paving the gravel section of Tulip Street NW, unless design minirnums are compromised and assessment costs are eliminated. (\ \..J" City Engineer Berkowitz stated that the Anoka County Sheriff's Department supplied staff with accident data from January 2000 to Decernber 2004. The reported number of accidents for this segment of Tulip Street were six in 2000, I in 2001, five in 2002, two in 2003 and two in 2004, however those were only the accidents that were reported, and the neighbors believe there were many more. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated the 2000 ADT was 190 vehicles and the projected 2020 ADT, according to the City's Transportation Plan, is 900. The latest traffic counts show an ADT of 400. He stated the 2020 ADT calculation did not take into consideration what type of impact a large school would have on the traffic volumes for Tulip Street NW. He indicated when the Meadow Creek School proposal moves forward a traffic impact study should be required to determine traffic impacts. Councilmember Trude asked if that traffic study would consider where the traffic is coming from. City Engineer Berkowitz stated staff could set the parameters for the study, and can look at several different intersections to determine where the traffic is from. Councilmember Knight noted that with a high school it is a different type of traffic pattern than with other schools; some go to jobs after school or to friends, and not where they came from in the morning. Councilmember Trude asked if the 2020 ADT assumed that area would be farm land or developed. City Engineer Berkowitz stated that it assumed development, but not a school. C) City Engineer Berkowitz stated that Tulip Street NW from 157th Avenue NW to Valley Drive NW is a designated State Aid Road. A feasibility report was prepared in 1995 to pave the gravel section of Tulip Street NW. The estimated assessments at that time were $5,113 per unit. The only project costs that were proposed to be assessed were non-participating project costs that State Aid will not cover, such as storm sewer improvements that are outside the scope of the specific project. Councilmernber Orttel asked how a unit was determined. City Engineer Berkowitz stated that any /" " Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting " ~ Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page 4 direct frontage benefit with an individual parcel number would be assessed. Councilmember Trude asked if there was any distinction rnade between a single-family modest home and a large track of land. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated there was no difference; they were all treated the same. Councilmember Trude asked if they would need a whole new feasibility study. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated they would. The rules have changed, and he would guess the project would cost more than it did in 1995. Councilmember Orttel asked what the right-of-way issue entails. City Engineer Berkowitz stated one was the curve, which is a big concern for many people. Staff would like to try and straighten the road, which is a problem because there are trees and parkland that provide a nice buffer now. Councilmember Orttel asked if they could lower the speed limit after reconstruction or if it would have to be a rural speed. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated that after construction they would look at the speed, but it probably could not be lowered. (~ '-./ An audience member stated if the road is paved and straightened there will be deaths, noting it is already a drag strip and this would make it worse. Councilmember Orttel thinks some of the speeding is because it is a dirt road. Mayor Gamache stated they may need to have a trail put in if they move ahead with this proj ect. He asked if the neighborhood was aware that they would lose their canopied road if those trees have to be removed. An audience member indicated they were back to where they were in 1995. He is not against paving the road, but if the city puts a drag strip in front of his house it is not a benefit to him. Another audience rnember stated that the last time this was talked about the residents were told if the road was paved they could consider reducing the speed to 35, and asked why that has changed. Mayor Gamache indicated the Council is working with the State Legislature on some areas that have homes that are further apart to try to make them 35 mph, but right now it is a State Law that the speed is higher, and the City does not have control to change it. An audience member stated he is concerned because he has been there for more than 20 years and now he will have a fast track right in front of him. Councilmember Orttel stated a good comparison is 157th Avenue, which he used to live on. He stated when they paved that road it helped the situation, rather than making it worse. C) Councilmember Trude thinks the key is the road is narrower. She stated if they would go to 32 feet with curb, people would go slower. Councilmember Orttel agreed. An audience member asked if the City would look at storm sewer and where the water runoff would go. City Engineer Berkowitz stated that would be part of the feasibility study, and rnost of that () Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page 5 would be picked up by State Aid. He indicated anything in the right-of-way that drains into the storm sewer system is State Aid, and anything outside the right-of-way that feeds into the system would have to be paid by the benefiting property, including oversized pipes if there was a need for them. An audience member asked how this would affect Dehn's property, which is the only property big enough to put a sedimentation pond on. City Engineer Berkowitz stated he did not know, but all that would be answered if they did a feasibility study. If this were to move forward the City Council would authorize the preparation of a feasibility report, and at that time they would have a neighborhood rneeting to discuss the project. After that it would be brought forward for a public hearing which would provide another comment period. Councilmember Orttel asked what the difference is between a State Aid street and a regular street. He questioned if they would require curb on this street. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated the width may be different. He noted that Tulip Street to the south is forty feet wide, and the city standard is 33 feet. He added they would be looking at a B2 curb, which is a drive-over curb, rather than a barrier curb which is B6. o Councilmember Orttel asked if they could reduce the street to 32 feet and not allow parking on it. An audience mernber stated there is no parking now, which was not a problem for the residents of the area. Councilmember Orttel thinks if they could reduce the width it would help keep the speed down. An audience rnember indicated he is worried about the proposal because the speed limit on Tulip Street to the south is 35 mph but people go 60 mph. City Engineer Berkowitz stated they could look at it. He indicated they just did a speed study on Nightingale hoping the speed would go down, but it did not. He stated as the Mayor mentioned they are working on some legislature that would allow them to lower the speed limit in some of these residential areas. An audience rnember suggested putting cul-de-sacs at both ends. Councilmember Trude stated they would lose the State Aid if they did that. City Engineer Berkowitz added it would also be a problern for the developrnent to the north. Mayor Gamache stated the only thing that might be a possibility is if the County decided they did not need full access. An audience member stated the City has a fire barn there, so they would need access. Councilmember Knight indicated if the school goes in they will have to upgrade 161 st Street anyway with safety improvements. Councilmember Jacobson arrived at 6:50 p.m. o Councilrnember Orttel suggested they have the feasibility study done. He stated they could keep discussing it now but they do not have any answers. Staff should keep in mind that the Dehn property is dependent on having clean drainage and clean water. An audience member noted that their nice, rural, quiet road is a garbage dump for everyone; deer carcasses, couches, TV s. Mayor Gamache stated if this project moves forward they would lose some o Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page 6 of the trees, which might eliminate some of the security people feel going in and dumping there. He stated they will have staff do the feasibility study so they have more answers. An audience member asked if there would be street lights. City Engineer Berkowitz stated the residents could petition for some at additional cost. The audience member stated that cars slow down when his lights are on, and he often puts on his garage lights to deter them. An audience member asked when the school would be built. Councilmember Jacobson stated it looks like it could start in 2006, with opening in the fall of2007. City Engineer Berkowitz stated if this street construction is considered staff would need to re-evaluate the Capital Improvement Plan. He indicated the feasibility report will take some time to go through the process and do a good, quality job. They could determine the project scope by the end of this year and plan for construction in 2006 if the Council decides to move ahead. City Administrator Dickinson stated that to fit it into the current year of the State Aid schedule would be difficult. City Engineer Berkowitz agreed, stating it would likely be 2006, or 2007 if the dollars were not available until then. C) An audience rnember stated that there is also a low lying area, and in 1995 there was talk that they would have to dig down eight feet and build up bedrock twelve feet for the road. City Administrator Dickinson stated there are now ways to build roads that may not be as expensive a process. An audience member asked if the school should pay for part of this project. Mayor Gamache indicated the Council will have to look at the schools plan and make that determination. Councilmember Orttel asked what the traffic counts are for the school. Councilmember Jacobson indicated they were still in a state of flux. He stated in another year they will have more answers, but he believes they are looking at 800 to 1200 students. Mayor Gamache indicated the process will be that the request to do a feasibility study will come to the City Council for approval, and that process will take six or more months. After that there will be a neighborhood meeting to see what the plan says, and then a public hearing in the fall after the City Council accepts the feasibility study. An audience member asked who they should direct additional input to should they have any. City Engineer Berkowitz stated it should come to him. Councilmember Orttel questioned how they could put an urban road through the middle of an organic farm. He thinks it would make sense to talk to that property owner now before they get too far into the plans. o An audience member indicated that the road needs may be more expensive because of the organic farm, and he does not want to have to pay extra for what that property owner needs. Councilmember Orttel stated those are the questions they need answers for, and it would be better to check it out now rather than fmding out later. / ~ '\ "'_J CJ o Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page 7 Couocilmember Trude asked if the City has options on width with a State Aid street. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated they will have to research it and see. He stated now the gravel portions are about 22 feet, and he knows you have to have a minimum of twelve feet per drive lane, so a 24 foot minimum would be required, then curbs. An audience member asked how long it will take for the construction. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated they can usually do it over the summer and fall months, with some landscape reconstruction possibly carrying over to the next year. CONTINUE DISCUSSION/ROAD IMPROVEMENT FUNDING POLICY City Administrator Dickinson advised that this topic was discussed in November of 2004. The Couocil indicated at that time that improvements to the transportation system need to be planned and paid for by utilizing three funding sources assessments, tax levy, and developer proportionately making payments. He indicated at the last meeting it was determined that there were two additional sources that need to be added to the list; couoty and state aid. City Administrator Dickinson stated that the Couocil may recall that staff made the case that as demands on the City and County road network increase, needed improvements such as upgrades to intersections and widening of roads are needed. He indicated that also the City and County need to make plans to allocate adequate resources to allow transportation issues to be taken care of before they build up to a level of service that is considered unacceptable. City Administrator Dickinson reviewed a matrix that shows where the discussion left off in November. As new development is approved, the City and/or the County typically require the County road improvernent be made at the time of construction or a permit will not be issued. In the past few years, the County was making recommendations that a given plat be approved subject to required intersection, turn lanes or shoulder improvements on the County roadway. He stated as a part of the plat approvals, the City calculated the proportionate amount that was attributable to the development and the developer was required to pay as a part of the plat approval, or in some cases makes the entire improvement on their own. He indicated this will likely continue to be recommended for future developments where there are specific needed improvements and can be sustained with a nexus test. City Administrator Dickinson advised that to take this one step further, there are sections of new roadway in the City that are collector or arterial roads that are not contained within a given plat that may also need to be expanded/improved and staffis asking if the funding should be looked at in the same way. For example, a road that is outside the plat that is greatly affected by the new development rnay need to be upgraded or improved. He stated one situation that comes to rnind is the intersection of Crosstown and Nightingale that is affected by all the latest increases in traffic caused by the Woodland Estates developments. Councilmember Orttel asked if the City has a legal right to assess if it is outside the development. (--.... Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting '-) Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page 8 City Engineer Berkowitz indicated that Maple Grove has been having traffic assessments for twenty years. He indicated now they are doing County roads and paying for them because they have this assessment. City Administrator Dickinson noted that four or five years ago the Builder's Association did go after Maple Grove, but Maple Grove prevailed. He stated other cities have been taken to task, but Maple Grove has not. He indicated as the Council is aware, Andover was also taken to task, but prevailed. Councilmember Orttel stated he is aware that Ham Lake is assessing for off-site improvements, but he is of the understanding that Anoka County will just ignore them because they have the money to make improvernents by themselves. Councilmember J aco bson stated the County collects taxes for roads and some of that money needs to come back to the City. Councilmember Orttel agreed, stating Andover is one of the largest cities in the County now. What bothers him is that the County can decide they want a light, and the City does not have a choice, but when the City approaches the County the County still makes the decision. Councilmember Jacobson stated they need to approach the County Commissioners on reciprocity. () Councilmember Orttel indicated that five years ago the City should have gotten these things in the County plan. City Engineer Berkowitz stated they have made some progress on that, but they need to get ahead of the game. He stated they may have to spend a little money to put plans together to bring to the County, which could speed up the process of receiving funding. He indicated the Northstar Commuter is a perfect example of this process, but there is a risk the City would take. City Administrator Dickinson stated he had a very good conversation with Elwyn Tinklenberg, who was the Public Services Manager and the State Transportation Commissioner the highway system. He noted Mr. Tinklenberg is on hire with the North Metro Mayor's Association. He stated Mr.Tinklenberg described how the system is metered so they do not bring traffic to one area until the next area is ready for it. Councilmember Jacobson stated the question is how to fund the streets. Councilmember Orttel stated they have approved an assessment to pay for this. City Administrator Dickinson noted that staff will continue to bring to the Council a recommendation that the development pays a proportionate amount, and also that traffic impact studies are completed. Councilmember Orttel asked if those studies should not be done for a bigger area rather than by plat. City Administrator Dickinson stated that going back to their original plan they would recommend a trunk road fee, which is probably how Maple Grove is doing it. He indicated it is only considered an irnpact fee if you cannot identify a nexus of how the development will benefit. He stated Eagan got r'\ into trouble because they had a road impact fee that they would collect from developers and used "...../ those monies to improve the other side oftown. He stated the city does something similar with the park dedication fee to determine the appropriate fee per unit. Councilmember Orttel asked how long after the development is completed other improvernents have (;. Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting . ,j Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page 9 to be made. City Administrator Dickinson showed an example of the concept they are trying to portray, relating it to park dedication fees. Councilmember Jacobson asked if staff is saying they can levy or use money from developers for road improvements because everyone uses the main roads. Councilmember Knight asked if they would fmd a number that is reasonable and apply it across the city. Councilmember Trude asked if that would not make developers go sornewhere else. City Administrator Dickinson indicated it could, but homeowners may have a lower tax fee than other cities that are paying for the road repairs through taxes. Councilmember Orttel asked how long they could hold the money allocated to a particular street before they rebuild the street. City Administrator Dickinson indicated there should be no limit on the timeframe, but the money would have to be allocated to a particular street. Councilmember Orttel stated with sewer the City in the past did not let developers build further out until the sewer trunk was ready. He asked if that rationale could be applied to the roads as well, and not let Woodland build until the road is there. /-, , ) ,~ -..I Community Development Director Neumeister cautioned against mixing examples. He stated with the Woodland they cannot charge all those around the development because most of the area is built out. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated the rural reserve would be the perfect place to start this; large areas ofland where they can show the impact to the roads around it. Councilmember Orttel asked about unbuildable land. He stated things change and sometimes the land becomes buildable. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated that it would be similar to area charges; they would not charge for unusable land. Councilmember Jacobson stated they are talking about intersections here, not streets. He indicated staff is saying they can get some money from several developments, bond for some of the money and maybe if more development cornes in later the city can pay it back. Councilmember Orttel stated he does not like the idea because the County should build the roads, but they are not doing it. Councilmernber Jacobson agreed. He stated it seems fair that on major County roads that the County have a cost-sharing plan. Community Development Director Neumeister indicated that in Maple Grove they have had to have 50% of all County road funds in hand because the County would come in and say they are doing it now. The City had to be ready with their portion of the funds. (. ) City Engineer Berkowitz indicated that staffhas heard that if the plans are ready to go, the County \. ~ will fmd the money. Winslow Holasek expressed concern that Andover is 90% developed, and now the City is going to ask the last developers to pay for the rest of the city. City Administrator Dickinson indicated staff ) C~) ) / '\ o )0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page 10 would like to use a multiple number of funding sources for these improvements. He stated they have to use a fair development standard. He indicated they could get funds from grants, the County, tax levy, developers and proposed trunk road fees. Councilmember Trude asked if the developers and trunk road fees are not the same thing. She asked if what they are saying is they will ask the developer to do a traffic impact study, and if the development will put the street over an acceptable level of service they will start talking about fees. Mayor Gamache indicated that one thing he always hears when out campaigning is that people do not want their taxes raised, but they are okay with it if it is to improve the roads. Councilmember Jacobson asked how much they would be looking at to do plans. City Engineer Berkowitz stated for a road reconstruction and to put in a signal, the plans would be about $50,000. Mayor Gamache asked how staff would determine how much to charge per developer. Councilmember Orttel stated it would have to be by use. Mayor Gamache asked if there could be a situation where a developer would have to pay twice if phases of a development impact more than one major road. City Administrator Dickinson stated they would hope to get to a place where the City would say they will pay a percentage, and the developer has to pay the rest. He indicated it would be based on acreage, so the last developer was not stuck with the whole bill. Mayor Gamache asked how they would determine the cost to Woodland. City Administrator Dickinson stated they do not know, yet, and rnore analysis is needed. Councilmember Trude stated she is willing to say they should extend the impact of traffic off the parcel, but she is not ready to say they should charge a trunk road fee. City Administrator Dickinson stated they can eliminate that, but the Council has to be prepared to spend money on plans, and use a tax levy to do that. Community Development Director Neumeister stated that is what Blaine did; they paid 10%, and the County paid 90%. He stated they had someone advocating on their behalf one on one with the County Commissioners not at public meetings, and got the County behind them. Community Development Director Neumeister stated the County will have to get involved at some point, and that is where the federal grants corne in. He indicated it helps to lower the costs so the County is rnore willing to get into the deal. Councilmember Orttel stated the problem he has with not basing a fee on the amount of acreage is that developers would be buying land without knowing what the fee would be. He indicated it amazes hirn that the City of Ramsey has a charter that says if you want to develop a mile away from the trunk line you have to pay for it, and it works because the times are good. Community Development Director Neumeister stated the developers are buying the land cheaper because it is a mile away frorn the trunk line. "\ r\ ) \J )0 )0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page II Councilmember Jacobson suggested they authorize staff to look at master planning intersections, and get plans to the County. Also to look at a formula for developrnent when it comes in on how the City could assess each developer for road improvements off the parcel but related to the development. He further suggested that staff look at a levy of I or 2 percent, and how much that would bring the City. He suggested they look at the County putting in at least 10% when the improvements are abutting County roads. Councilmember Knight suggested they get a legal opinion on this subject. Councilmember Jacobson agreed. Councilmember Knight stated it would be nice to have a meaningful discussion with the County so they make progress on the County's participation. City Administrator Dickinson noted that most cities assess for some of the cost for new roads and reconstruction. City Engineer Berkowitz stated it would save the City $100,000 in funding if they assessed 20% of the road costs. He indicated right now they only assess for curb. Councilmember Knight indicated people will accept a levy, but they will not accept an assessment. He stated it is not worth $100,000 a year. He thinks the cost is much less obtrusive in a tax levy. Councilmember Jacobson stated they need to have this discussion on camera rather than in a work session so people know what the Council is doing when they start talking about the tax levy. Mayor Gamache noted one more intersection that should be added to the list is by the Fire Station. City Engineer Berkowitz agreed it would be good to have a right in/right out in that location. He added that Maple Grove's per acre charge, which is about $9,000, includes sorne water charges. He noted that when they are talking about developing plans and shelving them with the County, the Council needs to understand the plans may sit for two or three years. Councilmember Orttel asked if the County would require that their people do the plans. City Engineer Berkowitz stated staff will discuss that with the County, but with the County's supervision they may allow the City to complete the plans. Councilmember Trude stated they should have a meeting with Blaine, as they did with Coon Rapids. Councilmember Orttel agreed, saying Lino Lakes would be another city to consult with, since some of the same developers are looking at Andover's rura1 reserve. City Engineer Berkowitz stated if they are going to talk with the County Commissioners they may want to talk about other funding sources, to let the County know the City is not asking them for all the funds. Councilmember Orttel stated before they go too far it may be wise to call in some of the bigger developers in the city and let them know what is being proposed. City Administrator Dickinson stated staff is keeping them appraised. TRAFFIC IMPACT STUDIES \ ,~ J " ) ) (J ) ~) Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 25, 2005 Page 12 Community Development Director Neumeister advised that traffic impact studies are an important tool to determine the impact a new development or commercial site will have on the transportation systern. He stated when inadequate attention is given to the location and design of access, and feedback does not occur between site design and traffic engineering, that there can be inadequate access capacity, on-site congestion, congestion on the public street system, high accident experience or limited flexibility to adjust the design or operation to future changed conditions. Community Development Director Neumeister explained that staffhas provided an example from the City of Brooklyn Park describing what their thresholds and requirements are for a traffic impact study. He noted that when they did the EA W for Andover Station North, part of that was a traffic impact study. He indicated that study said they needed several specific things, both on and off-site. City Engineer Berkowitz stated that what staff is thinking is requiring a traffic impact study from a large commercial site or from large residential developments. He indicated the school would go as far as Round Lake Boulevard and 16151 if they were to complete a traffic irnpact study. He stated staff is not saying they would require the school to pay for all the areas identified in the study, but it would identify the needs. Community Development Director Neumeister indicated if the Council was to adopt a policy of requiring a Traffic Impact Study based on exceeding a threshold number of trips per day or trips in a peak hour, then the developers rnust hire a qualified consultant to prepare it, and the needed roadway improvements would become a requirernent of the developer. The developer would be required to post the necessary surety to guarantee their installation before the development may proceed. He gave an example of Sophie's Manor, where staff would have been able to determine an appropriate fair share for the developer to pay. Councilmember Orttel thinks it is better to do a large area rather than a lot of small areas and aggregate them, but he does not know how they would fund that. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated there is a threshold set, but he agrees if the developer is only doing a small portion at a time they may not get a study. City Administrator Dickinson stated they could have it in the development agreement that the developer cannot phase past a certain point until a traffic study is done. Councilmernber Jacobson asked how much a traffic impact study costs. Community Development Director Neumeister explained the process to create a traffic impact study, noting that the more extravagant ones can cost $1,500 to $3,000. Councilmember Trude stated for large commercial sites that cost could be higher. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated that many large development companies, such as Ryan Companies, do them for all of their developments; however the City has not required seeing them in the past. Community Developrnent Director Neumeister stated another one that went through is Fairbanks Shopping Center. He indicated that because requiring a traffic impact study is not currently in the City's policy, they were unable to request one from the developer, even though it would have been beneficial for that development. He stated that having a policy that requires a traffic impact study gives the City more leverage. . - ..'\ I " ) Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes -January 25,2005 Page 13 Community Development Director Neumeister advised that he asked the traffic engineer frorn Brooklyn Park what would have happened if that city did not require traffic impact studies, and was told a lot of the necessary road improvements would have fallen on the taxpayers. Councilmember Jacobson indicated if you require this at the time of development you are adding a big fee that developers are not aware they will pay. Community Development Director Neumeister stated that is why staff is recommending they require this in the platting process. Councilmember Trude asked if the developer would be required to make all of the improvements identified in the study. City Engineer Berkowitz stated that goes back to determining a proportionate share; they would only make them pay for their share of the improvements. He noted that for the community center the County required the City to do a very limited traffic impact study. Community Development Director Neumeister stated it is a reasonable request because it meets the 'but, for' test, and will allow staff to look at what is a reasonable portion. He indicated they keep trying to pay for the sins of the past, and staff is trying to take a more proactive approach. '0 Councilmember Trude stated she agrees with staff's recommendation. She believes it identifies what is needed, and what the City does with that information is up to them. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated one thing they need to keep in mind is they may have a developer that only does 30 homes at a time. They need to find a way to have these studies done for smaller developrnents also. Councilmernber Trude stated that when comparing the two policy examples provided by staff, she prefers the Brooklyn Park policy. DISCUSS COMMUNITY CENTER ADVISORY BOARD / SCHEDULE INTERVIEWS City Administrator Dickinson advised there are seven applicants for the Council to interview to fill three seats. He stated the YMCA representative will be Linda Blackmore. He noted the hockey association said they would appoint a representative, but if the Council wants to choose that representative they can do so. Councilmember Trude stated she would request the hockey association president fill the seat, and if he is unable to do it he should appoint someone else. City Administrator Dickinson stated they did have one applicant who is an Andover business owner but not a resident. )0 Councilmember Jacobson asked if the duties of this board had been defmed so these applicants know what they are getting involved in. City Administrator Dickinson stated staff is working on that, and will have it before the interviews. Councilmember Orttel stated he would like to find out who on the Park Commission is interested ~- , I '. .i I ' "l \ .' > ( ") Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes -January 25, 2005 Page 14 and interview them as well. City Administrator Dickinson suggested the interviews be held at the February 22,2005 workshop, as the agenda for that is quite short. OTHER BUSINESS City Engineer Berkowitz indicated that at the last meeting they talked about 1487 -148th Lane NW, which was a lot split. It was stated at that meeting that city sewer is required if under 2 Y:z acres, but the ordinance is not clear on city water. To extend the water they would have to bypass a lot with a well that was split earlier. Councilmember Orttel suggested they extend the water but not make the owners they pass hook up now. This is why he believes the pipes need to be brought to the end of each property. Community Development Director Neumeister stated they need to rnake sure the ordinance is clear, and that all the requirements of the city are being met even ifit is a simple subdivision. City Engineer Berkowitz noted this one may get interesting because there will be some people with sewer but no curb, sorne will be getting curb, and some getting water but not hooking up, etc. City Administrator Dickinson stated he received a call today from Congressman Kennedy's office stating he will be at a meeting at the Fire Station to present a check for $120,000 to Chief Winkle for Homeland Security turn-out gear. He noted that Congressman Kennedy has been very proactive on federal funding and getting money back to his districts. ADJOURNMENT Motion by Orttel, Seconded by Knight, to adjourn the Special Andover City Council Workshop. Motion carried unanimously. The meeting was adjourned at 9:05 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Karen Bucklen, Recording Secretary