Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutDecember 7, 1978 o 0 ~ ~ ANDOVER o PARKjRECREATION COMMISSION MEETING - DECNffiER 7, 1978 The Regularly Scheduled ParkjRecreation Commission Meeting was called to order by Chairman MEnd at 7:30 p.m., December 7, 1978, at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Blvd. N.W. Commission Members Present: LeFebvre, Meyer, Nichols & Rogers Commission Members Absent: Anderson & Curtis Also Present: Larry Retzlaff, Chairman, Planning & Zoning Commission Chuck Lund - Lund's Evergreen Estates Preliminary Plat Mike Gair - Al Klous Sketch Plan Tom Or~Aal1ey - Pine Hills Preliminary Plat ORDINANCE #10 AMENDMENT The Commission has reviewed the proposed Ordinance #10D regarding land dedication. Glen Rogers asked if it had to be 10% or land, or could it be a combination of both. Chairman 1Jand read part of the State Statute (MSS. 462.358)....as defined by regulations. The regulations are set by the platting authority, which actually is the City Council. The Council in the past has approved either land or cash, or a combination of both. Noted was there is no percentage figure mentioned in this Statute" but it does state fair market value of the undeveloped land, which is an arbitrary figure. Glen Rogers questioned 9.07.9, Credit for Private Open Space which says the o\v.nerjdeve10per can be given credit. In the r-'case of PUn's, what happens is the cost of maintaining open space and roads becomes so great, ~they are forfeited and thereby become an obligation of the City. Larry Retzlaff agreed and stated this is a model ordinance and does not totally back it. A suggestion by Chairman Mand was that to derive credit for these open spaces, the developer must meet the Comprehensive Park Development Plan in order to obtain credit. Larry Retzlaff thought this should not be spelled out in the ordinance, which would make it a hard and fast law, but rather leave it as a general ordinance and let the platting authority make the decision regarding open space, provided it finds it in the public interest to do so. This would not restrict the Council in the process of determining credit. Discussed was the inadequacy of Ordinance #10 regarding park dedication, which is the reason for this amendment. Chairman Mand thought the numbers under 9.07.12, Dedicated Land, }!inimum Area should be reduced. It is possible to have eight families per acre in a 40 acre tract - or 320 families in a 4 acre park. Larry Retzlaff stated the Metropolitan Council has predicted an average of 4 persons per household in the year 2000, that would mean 1280 persons on a 40 acre tract. Glen Rogers thought the 10% for Commercial-Industrial was high. He, as a taxpayer, would like to see this reduced. His reason was the higher tax base on these types of property. If the City took 10% of the land, that would reduce the amount of taxes paid by these companies. This might also hinder commercial and industrial development in Andover. Larry Retzlaff said on the other hand, large companies have dedicated land, improved and maintained park areas. Credit could be given to this under 9.07.09 - add to 25% of the amount for residential development and up to 100% for commercial-industrial development. MOTION by Rogers, seconded by Meyer, to recommend that the City Council approve Ordinance #lOD amendment with the changes of the dwelling units per acres be 0-5, 10% and 6-over; and under 9.07.09 be 25% of the amount for residential development and up to 100% for commerica1- industrial development. Motion carried unanimously. OLarry Retzlaff said he would make the changes to concur with the above motion. ,- '\ Page #2 Park/Recreation COlIll Jeeting ~.tl.nutes - December 7, 1978 ~ / ., '-) PROPOSED PARK ORDINANCE Larry Retzlaff has also composed a park ordinance. This was discussed at the Park/Recreation /Commission's April 6, 1978 meeting. Several additions and changes were suggested at that time. Larry Retzlaff stated he has a copy of these suggestions, however, several Commission members did not as they were not on the Commission at that time. The present problem is complaints of snowmobiles in the parks at all hours of the night. Steve Nichols reported snowmobiles have been harassing children on the swing set in Northwoods pretending to be running into them. He also expressed concern over the tennis court fence. Since there is no ordinance prohibiting motorized vehicles, the Sheriff's Office cannot tag them. The proposed ordinance will be redrafted and submitted to the Planning & Zoning Commission. Larry Retzlaff stated if problems are found in certain areas of the ordinance, a resolution could be adopted to alleviate the present problem. Mentioned was the fact that law enforcement agencies will not enforce an ordinance of this type unless tlEarea is posted. The secretary was asked to arrange for the purchase of no motorized vehicles signs so they will be on hand when this ordinance is adopted. PINE HILLS PRELIMINARY PLAT Mr. Tom O'Malley presented the Commission with a revised plat stating it was redrawn to take advantage of the reduction in lot frontage from 330 ft. to 300 ft. By redesigning the plan, they gained two lots but had to move the park location. This plat is 63.7 acres, the park now shown is 5.2 acres, or 1.17 acres short. Chairman 1~d commented he feels the City Council prefers either 10% of the land or 10% cash in lieu of land, not a combination, and cited the problems they encountered with the Rum River Forest plat. He also noted there is no possibility of future park expansion as was the case in the original preliminary plat - also the west boundary faces Tulip and the north boundary is 161st, which is a municipal \state aid road, which presents a safety problem. Mr. O'Malley asked if it was possible for )the developer to make some improvements in the park to bring the value of the park to the satisfaction of everybody concerned. Chairman Mand stated arrangements of this type create problems (one being the developer at first agrees to do this and this and somehow it never gets done). He then asked Mr. O'Malley how much Lot 1, Block 1 would cost, thinking perhaps the City could buy it for park purposes, pOs!Jibly on a contract for deed. Mr. O'Malley wasn't sure but thought it would be around $10,000.00. Since they are not planning on starting to develop this property until next Spring, the Commission decided to physically look at the area and suggest parkland. Chairman Mand told Mr. O'Malley recently a developer offered more money than 10% of the assessed market value and the Council accepted the offer. Mr. O'Malley stated he would talk to Mr. Knoll about this and return to the next regularly scheduled meeting. AL KLOUS SKETCH PLAN Mr. Mike Gair representing Mr. Al Klous presented a sketch plan of 31 lots with a county ditch running through on 117 acres located in Section 12. There is no parkland shown on this sketch. Much of the area is low, there are 15 lots which will require fill in order to make them buildable lots. It is their desire to provide cash in lieu of parkland because of the large lot size. However, he understands that Andover is leaning more toward land than money at the present time. The Planning and Zoning Commission has suggested several changes in road locations, configurations and other road related matters. They are revising the plan and Mr. Gair then explained the alterations being done. He asked if the Park/Rec- reation Commission would agree to some high ground and some low ground in a proposed park site, the low area could be considered a natural wildlife area. The Commission advised him Andover has too many swamps called City parks already, plus some designated parks are ) now storm sewer holding ponds. Mr. Gair then asked if the Park/Recreation Commission desired land, would they accept a smaller park with the balance owing to be paid by some development to the park. He advised the problems alluded to earlier in the meeting could be alleviated by a performance bond provided by the developer. The Commission asked N~. r ,... ~ .,..-1-.- - .~ ,,' ,... .. " - ~ (- " ,.....-\ -" n .."" ~.) .,.~ ;- I.. , r , r-. , - " , ,+ . . ~J.r ,: ." . " "+ r. , r ~l ~ - . 1_ " \.......) '" ./ Page #3 Park/Recreation Commission Meeting llinutes - December 7, 1978 'Gair to obtain some more definite information from 1~. Klous regarding parkland and was /invited to attend a future meeting. In the meantime the Commission will p~ysically check the location of this proposed plat. LUND'S EVERGREEN ESTATES PRELIMINARY PLAT Chairman Maud advised the Commission, according to the Comprehensive Park Development Plan, which was adopted by the City Council on November 21, 1978, there is a need for a neighborhood park in this area. The Commission members as yet have not received a copy of this plan. Mr. Chuck Lund stated the assessed market value of the land is $70,000.00 but he would be willing to donate $10,000.00 in lieu of parkland. If the City demanded parkland, it would not be economically feasible to proceed with the plat. They are already giving up 3 acres for roads. He went onto explain the costs incurred so far plus he is going to blacktop the roads, which is not required, which will be an additional expense. After the last Park/Recreation meeting, he was under the impression the City would prefer cash in lieu of land since City Hall and Barnes Rolling Oaks parks are nearby. Chairman lklnd explained to him the differences of use between a community park, such as the City Hall site and Barnes, and a neighborhood park. Mr. Lund stated he couldn't understand why the City would want a park when the lots are 2 1/2 acres, there is plenty of room to play in, plus the area is thick with evergreens which would be very expensive for the City to improve. Chairman Mand explained the Commission has to look far into the future, what they decide now will affect the people 15-20 years from now and cited lot splits as an example. 1~. Lund said he was going to put restrictive covenants on the property, one of which there will never be any lot splits. Chairman Mand then asked what would happen when sewer and water came in, could the residents afford the assessments on such large lot frontages? Mr. Lund said if a person built a $100,000-150,000 house in the middle of the lot, they are not going to split the lot and could afford the assessments. According ,to 1~. Lund, this plat is ready to go to the City Council, however, later in the meeting, it was learned ihis plat is on the next Planning & Zoning Commission agenda. In looking over the plat, Glen Rogers noted the lot width. If the plat was redrawn to concur with the present 300 ft. frontage, they could gain two, possibly three more lots. tIT. Lund stated he was not aware of the change in the ordinance. In response to a question, 1~. Lund stated he paid 1!r. Erickson $2,000.00'an acre for this land. The Commission and 1~. Lund then reached a stalemate. The entire Commission was unwilling to accept $10,000 in lieu of parkland and Mr. Lund was unwilling to donate 10% of the land. Chairman Maud advised 1~. Lund the Planning & Zoning Commission and the Park/Recreation Commission are only advisory commissions, the City Council has the final word. He hoped the Commission could come to an acceptable agreement with 1~. Lund in order not to place an extra burden on the City Council. MOTION by Rogers, seconded by Nichols, to recommend the City Council reject monies in lieu of parkland and further recommends park land be dedicated on Lund's Evergreen Estates plat. Discussion: Mr. Lund stated for the record that this has been the most difficult project he has been involved in, nobody can make up their mind. There is a fine line between being picky and reasonable. There is no open land in the plat. He is a small developer; he has a proj ect going in Champlin and one in Ramsey. The one in Ramsey was started two months after Evergreen Estates and it should be through next month. His reasons for money in lieu of parkland are: 1. There is no open land; 2. There are 23 residential lots; 3. It is not more than 1/2 mile to the park at City Hall. It is unfair to him, he cannot afford to give up 2 lots as they are going to be $15,000.00 lots. "You are playing God". Glen Rogers stated no, we are not playing God, we can take land or money, these are our options...the City Hall park is more suitable for adult type games. Chairman Mand said we have to look \t more than just Mr. Lund's plat. The surrounding area might be developed into 1 acre" or even 1/2 acre lots in 15 years. Mr. Lund stated a land developer can't look 15 years ahead. Chairman Mand said that is what we are here to do. Right now we are making an investment for the City. The City now, and in the future, cannot afford to pay $15,000 for :- r . e. ..J. " ~. ,~(; -1' " . ~., ,0 .'" r ~. . _ r.... ',' ", c', -"f, ~. ,- " " " " " , -, Page #4 Park/Recreation Con~ ,'sion Meeting .Minu'bes - December 7, 1978 -/ ,---) 2 1/2 acre lots and with inflation, the prices will rise. Right now, we are faced with the 'assessor's evaluation which is far below actual cost, that is why we had the ordinance /revision on tonight's agenda. Glen Rogers commented somewhere there has to be a compromise, we won't accept $10,000 in lieu of parkland, you (Mr. Lund) won't dedicate 10% of the land, we have no alternative but to leave the decision up to the Council. He sympathized with l~. Lund to some degree, he is in the business to make money, but we have to look out for the City's interest down the line, in the future. l~. Lund then stated if you want to get technical, the Supreme Court overruled the latest decision and says the developer does not have to give any 10% of his land as a park. Chairman Mand said with increased population, there will be more demand for open space, parks. If they are not there, the people are going to wonder why; the developer is generating the need for the park, therefore, the developer should provide the parks. ]Ar. Lund reiterated his earlier statements regarding restrictive covenants and that the lots would not be split. Glen Rogers wondered how enforceable restrictive covenants would be in the future and whether or not they would stand up in court. -ADDITION TO MOTION: ...because- the Park/Recreation Commission does not feel the proposed dedication fees on the land were adequate to justify taking cash in lieu of parkland. Motion and addition to motion carried unanimously. Mr. Lund then asked what happens now. He was told the Commission will make their recommendation to the Council. It will be the Council's decision whether or not to accept the $10,000 in lieu of land. Rut! RIVER HOCKEY ASSOCIATION There was no one present representing the Rum River Hockey Association. No action was taken. ,The recent vandalism to the hockey rink switches was discussed. They are in the process of /being repaired. COON RAPIDS ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION The Coon Rapids Athletic Association would like a volunteer from Andover to help research motorbike and snowmobile trails. Bill LeFebvre volunteered. Glen Roger said Coon Rapids has now entirely banned snowmobiles in their City. Edna Meyer remarled the Rum River snow- mobile trail this year is in terrible condition. SITE PLANS FOR PARKS Chairman Mand stated the Commission should start making site plans for the parks. They were going to tie the push button system to the hockey rink but found the warming house heating system is in the same panel. Instead of being able to pick it off in the building, they would have to put in a brand new system which would cost $950.00. However, he felt if the switches were continually vandalized and repaired at a cost over $100.00, maybe it would be wiser to spend the $950.00 now for the push button and timer system. This could be done next Spring after the ground thaws. The reason for the high cost is that~the lights are quartz which take a tremendous amount of current so the switch mechanisms have to be heavy to take the current which makes them expensive. Had there been a site plan for City Hall, the problems with the tennis court lights and now the hockey rink lights could have been avoided. The Commission was also advised by a memo from the Building Official that the warming house was "condemned" this afternoon. The secretary was asked- to request the Senior Public Works uerson to arrange for the needed repairs and additions as referenced by the Building Offica1 at the lowest possible cost. MOTION by Nichols, secon~ Meyer, to adjourn. Respectfully submitted: />(1c~4.p:.- Rae llen Bakke, Recording Meeting adjourned 11:55 p.m. Secretary ".l" '~.' ., .''-1 r. "-1_ I,., __) -,,, r " f" - r '. -, ", " , , , \ 't;iry of AfNJlDO VlER',-1 M E M 0 RAN 0 U M .' TO: Park and Recreation Commission City Council COPIES TO: FROM: Building Official DATE:: December 7, 1978 REFERENCE: Warming House Requirements Group A Division 4 Size: 12 x 20 = 240 square feet Occupant load (7 square feet per occupant) = 34 occupants Exits: Section Doors 3303 (a) (c) (d) General Type of lock or latch (Shall be openable from inside without key or special knowledge) Width and height (Minimum 3' 0" x 6' 8" open 900 with clear width 32") Change in floor levels at doors (The landing shall be not more than 1" lower than the threshold of the doonvay. The landing shall have a length of not less than 5') (h) j Section 5401 (a) 2 Glass and glazing (Door window glass shall be protected with guardrails) Note: Section 3303 (h) and Section 5401 (a) 2 These 2 items must be corrected prior to opening for public use. DLA:dh )