HomeMy WebLinkAboutJanuary 10, 1980
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CROOKED LAKE BOAT RAMP/IMPROVEMENTS PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL HEARING - JANUARY 10, 1980
MINUTES
Pursuant to notice published thereof, an Informational Public Hearing regarding the proposed
Crooked Lake boat ramp and improvements was called to order by Chairman Mand at 7:35 p.m.,
January 10, 1980, at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Blvd, N.W.
Commission Members Present:
Commission Members Absent:
Also Present:
Longbella and Nichols
Anderson, LeFebvre, Meyer and Rogers
Mayor Windschitl, Councilmen Jacobson and Lachinski;
Del Barber, DNR Regional Trails and Waterway Coordinator,
Mike Markell, DNR State Public Access Coordinator,
Ed Neary, DNR Land Acquisition Division,
Ed Feiler and Jeff Gorton, DNR Fisheries Division;
and interested residents
Chairman Mand explained the format for tonight's meeting. He asked those present to come
to the microphone, state their name and address and limit their questions and/or opinions to
five minutes. in order to give everybody a chance to speak.
He then read the notice sent to the Andover residents surrounding the lake, copy attached.
The area lies directly across from Crooked Lake School. There are two small parcels of
land between two City parks. A Comprehensive Park Development Plan was started 4~5 years
ago and the acquisition and development of this site was included in that plan. In 1978
the City applied for a grant to acquire and develop this park area but due to the low ranking,
the project was not funded at that time. Alternative methods were then looked into. When
one of the houses went up for sale, the DNR and other agencies were contacted and the new
grant program was checked. The grant was applied for in 1979; the preliminary application
was approved and ranked No.1. This grant program placed more emphasis on public lake
accesses in the metropolitan area. After contact with the DNR, they became interested and
involved in the project.
Del Barber, DNR, stated they came out and looked at the project and decided what really was
needed. There is a task force between the DNR, Met Council and the State Planning Agency to
set priorities for lake accesses. The DNR is mandated to try and acquire accesses on all
lak~of 100 acres or more in the entire State. This task force was set up to prioritize
lakes as to their recreational value, where the emphasis should be, and who should be the
lead agency to work on acquiring public accesses on the different lakes. Crooked Lake was
one of the lakes placed in the priority grouping and has been assigned as a DNR lake.
Basically, an agreement has been signed between the City of Andover and the DNR whereby the
State would purchase the properties and maintain ownership but turn over the custodial duties.
to the City. There are stipulations regarding public accesses and fish stocking.
Mike Markell, DNR, - State law requires there be a free public access in order for the DNR,
or any other agency, to stock the lake with fish. Crooked Lake is one of 200 lakes managed
for fisheries in the region. They did conduct a complete lake survey this summer and came
up with a number of recommendations. Some of which are:
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1. Encourage an improved public access.
2. Monitor the oxygen level on an annual basis as Crooked Lake has a tendency
to winter kill.
3. Conduct an aerial fish house census.
4. Within 5 years conduct a trail or recreational census. This will tell the
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January 10, 1980
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amount and type of recreational use on Crooked Lake.
5. Take a creel census to determine the type of fish and how many have been caught.
All DNR lakes receive a lake survey on a ten year basis, 'with different censuses being taken
every five years. Should there be a winter kill situation prior to the scheduled survey,
they would conduct tests to determine its extent. Since Crooked Lake has a tendency to winter
kill, they recommend an aeration device be installed. Last year Crooked Lake suffered a
partial winter kill. Although they usually stock fingerlings in the spring, last summer it
was stocked with adult large mouth bass in the hope they would spawn. The northern pike
population appeared to be those stocked in 1975, They recommend to stock 1600 northern pike
fingerlings on an annual basis. In 1965 Crooked Lake was treated with a chemical to eliminate
the fish population. They would recommend that, if the fish population would again deteriorate
to a point where little or no sporting fish are present (overabundance of rough fish), it be
chemically treated for a second time. An alternative would be to reduce the volume of the lake.
At this time the fish population in the lake does not warrant chemical rehabilitation. Their
last recommendation would be commercial fish removal of carp and bullheads.
Chairman Maud - The proposed access is not meant for high speed or high powered boats. It is
mainly an access for small fishing boats, canoes, etc. From the City's standpoint, we are
more interested in the park itself than the actual access to the lake. There is a great
deal of concern among the residents around the lake with extra traffic being generated by
high speed and high powered boats and we have taken some initial steps to look into surface
zoning of the lake. There are many ways this can be done. The DNR is involved in a program
to set up some model ordinances for surface zoning of the lakes in the metropolitan area.
Mike Markell, DNR - Currently the DNR is working on developing some guidelines for water
surface use zoning or surface management. The State Legislature passed a law in 1975 mandating
the DNR to come up with model ordinances. The DNR does not have the authority to zone the
lakes. They have the authority to review ordinances that are drafted by the local units of
government. An exception to this would be cases where there would be a conflict such as
waters between two states. Basically, the surface use program deals with problems that would
already exist on a lake, whether there is an access or not. There are many places in the
metro area that have had zoning for years, such as Lake Calhoun. The goal is to try and get
some uniformity throughout the area. Some of the things that can be considered in zoning
are just weekend zoning of the lake or specific times on the weekends. It's quite liberal,
horsepower limitation is just one facet.
The hearing was then opened to the pUblic.
Jim Seeman, 13609 Heather St. N.W. - Is there some kind of a guideline that has been
established for a lake the size of Crooked Lake; is there a size or recommendation that
typically has been followed that Crooked Lake would normally relate to?
Mike Markell, DNR - The Department could easily work with the City to come up with anything.
There are several lakes that are in the smaller category that have been zoned and there
are some specific ordinances that have been in effect that have worked very well.
Katherine MilleT, 13020 Crooked lake Blvd. N,W. - What is surface zoning?
~like W~rkell, DNR - The intent of surface zoning is to deal with potential conflicts and
'~Joblems because of use of the lake such as conflicts between the high speed boaters, sail-
Doaters, fishermen, etc, What it does is establish certain types of regulations on the actual
use of the water's surface.
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Katherine Miller - You have referred to the DNR working with the City.
,,- 'rking with two cities or three. Do you find it very feasible to work
'-vnree cities that are amiable to all three and all residents around the
In this case you are
out a situation with
lake?
Mike Markell, DNR - Yes, I think so. There have been some problems that we have been requested
to come in on already. We still have not adopted this model ordinance. We have to go through
the public hearing process and this will probably take place in March or April.
Katherine Miller - Are you then going to have this pUblic hearing with two or three cities
that are involved?
Mike 1ffirkell, D}ffi - The public hearing will be for the general program; then, in terms of this
lake, the City itself would have to request the Department to work with them on this zoning.
Katherine Miller - This does border on the City of Coon Rapids and also she believes the City
of Anoka. (Chairman Mand advised 1rrs. Miller the City of Anoka is not involved,) She foresees
a problem with these municipalities and any other organization that may be involved. Who will
police this zoning? (The local Sheriff's Deparment.) Does the local Sheriff's Department
have a boat that will be on that lake at all times? (No one had an answer.) She doesn't believe
that Coon Rapids has any motorized water vehicles. How are they going to regulate this? She,
as a resident, is going to run into a lot of problems if the access is opened. The weekends
are busy in the summer with just the resident traffic. They have problems with resident traffic.
If they open up a public access to let'in people who don't care, what happens? There is going
to be more trouble. If somebody doesn't have the power, and every law enforcement agency in
this County that she knows of is short of manpower, none of them are trained or capable of
putting a man in a boat from Saturday morning to Sunday night to police Crooked Lake to take
care of the speeders; the water skiers that are going in the wrong direction; the swimmers
that are out too far; the people that are harassing the fishermen. There is too much traffic
for a lake that size right now. They have a boat, their children swim, they water ski, her
husband fishes and already they can foresee a problem. She understands the feelings for
wanting a City park but she, as a resident, would not like it spoiled. If it is going to be
opened, then she wants an assurance in some kind of writing that this is going to be policed
and taken care of because she doesn't want her children killed. There have been children hurt
just from swimming. It is a shallow lake and she has had a water skier come close to her dock,
her children almost got swamped. She reiterated her earlier comments about the lake during
the busy times and wanted assurance that it would be adequately policed. She is living on a
50 ft. lot - if you multiply that by an average of 4 persons per household, there are a lot of
people living on the lake. The lots on the west side of the lake are larger but there is the
same problem. There is not that much area for the amount of residents on the lake. There is
a large Coon Rapids City park that has a large amount of swimming. According to Mrs. Miller,
about three times a week there is a squad car and a rescue vehicle going to that beach because
somebody has gotten hurt diving in because the lake is too shallow or for some other reason.
Added traffic will just increase the risk.
Mike Markell, DNR - It sounds like you already have a problem on the lake and the surface use
zoning is needed whether the access goes in or not.
Mrs. Miller agreed but further stated you shouldn't increase the problem by opening up the
public access. There is one but it is practically unuseable which is probably better for the
size of the lake. To put in a concrete ramp so anybody can launch a boat, this will add to
an existing problem. A park with a picnic area is fine, but open it up to a swimming area and
a public boat landing - the load would be increased and as far as she was concerned, there are
,~o many as it is.
Mike Markell, DNR - That is the intent of surface use zoning and he felt the DNR, Andover and
Coon Rapids could work it out.
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January 10, 1980
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Katherine Miller - Have you gotten a response from Coon Rapids as far as this park? (No.)
,Have they been approached for their response? (No.) Why? 3/4's of the lake is in Coon
/ 'tpids, or at least half is in Coon Rapids.
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Chairman Mand - The park we are proposing is as far away from Coon Rapids as we could possibly
get it. Comments were that that didn't make any difference.
Katherine Miller - Didn't think they used the right approach. Stocking the lake is nice but
they are talking about opening up a pUblic access not just to canoes and small fishing boats,
but to opening an access to power boats. They and several others have power boats and already
have problems. The access as it is has discouraged power boats because of the shallow water.
If it was a matter of 3 or 4 fishing boats a week, she didn't think it would be a big deal.
Chairman Mand - The Sheriff's Office does have boats and a Ranger unit that can patrol the lake.
Katherine Miller - Can patrol a lake. She was at a safety committee meeting at Coon Rapids
City Hall about the traffic along Crooked Lake Blvd. She was informed the State did a speed
study and they have deemed that the traffic along Crooked Lake Blvd. is traveling at an 85
percentile of 47 mph which means the traffic is moving faster than the speed zone. Therefore,
their feeling is that the speed limit should be raised. She thinks it should be 30 mph. They
already have an enforcement problem. She was told they don't have a speed problem, they have
an enforcement problem and the reason there is an enforcement problem is due to lack of manpower.
If they can't have ,enough men to control-the traffic, can they feasibly have enough manpower
to patrol the lake in a boat? (Note: Anoka County Park Ranger patrol parks only - they do not
patrol streets.) Somebody is going to get hurt and you'll say "Gee, we made a mistake". Now
is the time to figure out whether there is a mistake being made or not. A park is lovely, but
the lake can't support any more traffic.
Lois Sarantakis, 13306 Gladiola St. N.W. - Agreed with Mrs. Miller. She was wondering who
will police Bunker Lake Blvd. when the children are going to the summer program, traffic into
the park, the ramp and the church, and also who will be responsible for cleaning up the area.
She wonders also if the school realized what the lot is going to look like on Monday morning
after all the beer cans, etc. are left there.
Chairman Mand - The Sheriff's Office is the law enforcement agency in Andover and it would
be up to the Sheriff's Office to enforce the ordinances that exist. As far as clean up, that
would be the City's responsibility. It is not anticipated the school parking lot being used
in the future as there will be parking on the site and traffic will be confined to the site,
Lois Sarantakis - In the summertime when the school is holding their summer programs, will
there be someone out there to guide the children across the street? (This is up to the
people running the school program, School Dist. #11.) Every once in awhile they will send
someone to help them get across the street,after school, but there isn't much traffic at that
time, On Sunday morning there is a lot of traffic due to the churches and with the park and
the ramp, there will be more traffic. (There are 8 spaces on the site.) The overflow is
supposed to go in the Crooked Lake parking lot. She believes kids are going to come to the
park with or without a boat and she can see a traffic problem. Cars are parked on Crooked
Lake Blvd. near the beach whether there are parking spaces available or not. (This isn't
going to be a beach.) Whose to tell them they can't swim when they jump in the water. (This
was never intended to be a swimming area.) Teenagers are going out in boats and jump off
the boats, they do it all the time.
._~~ewart Dahl, 13425 Heather St. N.W. - He has a bone to pick with the DNR as he tried to put
,-/1 a beach at his house. The DNR stated they like to cooperate with cities. He mentioned
lawsuits against the DNR by Pine County and Isanti County and thought Andover was asking for
a lot of problems. Secondly, he wanted to know why a $12,000 boat ramp is needed.
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P/l.ge #5 - Minutes
January 10, 1980
.Chairman Mand - This was included in the Comprehensive Park Development Plan. At that time
/ 1ere was a request by residents of the City to have the access upgraded. The planner felt
'--It was a good idea to put this in the plan. We have received a favorable comment from the
County and it has been discussed by many members of the Park Commission over the past several
years. The whole plan seems to be a logical addition to the park.
Stewart Dahl -
with the park.
had a right to
Personally he feels the boat ramp would destroy the lake and has nothing to do
These are two separate items. He then questioned whether or not Wally Johnson
endorse the project, he has seen nothing signed by Mr, Finch, the Superintendent.
Chairman Mand - The initial contact was with the School District and they indicated it was up
to the Principal of the school involved.
Stewart Dahl - He wanted to emphasize a point. The area now is sufficient for people with
canoes and boats to fish; it is sufficient for the DNR to stock. He feels it will cost a
minimum of $200,000 to buy three houses. The entire City is relatively undeveloped and they
are going to spend basically $6,000 City dollars and $200,000 State dollars for a park. He
would like to talk to a couple politicians about that.
Chairman Mand - The DNR will be purchasing the properties themselves. The grant money is for
the development of the site, landscaping, parking lot and the ramp.
Sue VanValkenburg, 13633 Heather St. N.W. - She lives near the park and feels the park now is
not used. Usually the kids in the area use it for things like smoking. She can see the access
from her house. Even on weekdays, she has seen two or three people lined up to go out on the
lake. Weekends are worse and she agrees with the comments made by the other residents. She
feels the ramp is used as much as it should be used. A large cement ramp is inviting larger
boats. Vfuen the water is high, large boats can and are being launched. She agrees with Mr.
Dahl that the park and the ramp are two separate items. Also, why take tax dollars out of
circulation by condemning or buying these three houses and turning them into public property
for a park that shouldn't be used any more than it is right now.
Tom Funk, 13504 Gladiola St. N.W. - President of the Home Owner's Association - They had a
meeting last night with approximately 50 members present. There were two positive areas
discussed, one, everyone wants fish stocking and, two, it would make it easier for families,
etc. to visit the lake with their boats. The discussion then centered on the negative side.
There was heavy concern for the excessive traffic and also concern about the litter and
general degradation of the lake. He then cited the case at Lake George where people are being
evicted unwillingly. Policing was also a major concern. The general consensus of opinion
was the members of the association were not in favor of zoning that would restrict the ski
type boat totally. They did not know what was included in surface zoning at the time. An
unofficial vote was made by raising hands. Two were in favor, the rest were against the
proposed project.
Mike Markell, DNR - The DNR has no power of condemnation. They can only buy property on the
open market, and they can't put any pressure on anybody to sell their property. Water surface
zoning does not intend to restrict water skiers or completely eliminate them. The regulations
put in prior to the law have been only restricted to weekend use. In some instances, there
are specific times allotted for open speed on the lake. One interesting point is that the
State of Minnesota does not have any speed limit on water. This is one reason the Legislature
wanted model ordinances set up.
'- ~e Department's view on public accesses is that the public has a right to use public water.
tie recognizes the problem that have been presented and they are valid. The way to deal with
these problems would be through the zoning process. There are approximately 134 boats on the
lake now. With the addition of 8 parking spaces, they don't feel the lake traffic would
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increase that much. However, with the addition of the school parking, that may lead to
an excessive amount, but this use coul~ be restricted. Based on studies, they are only
'-'3king for 50% of the water's surface for public use. The water is public water and that
'-L~ why the Legislature passed the law mandating the Department to purchase accesses on lakes
over 100 acres in size.
Bob Miller, 13020 Crooked Lake Blvd. N.W. - 50% of the lake is unuseable, it isn't that big.
You can't put 134 boats on that lake. Does the DNR have a study of how many boats can be
on an area of lake like ours at one time and feasibly not pollute it or do anything to it
when it is that shallow and has the problems that it has?
Mike Markell, DNR - A study has shown that power boats use approximately 20 acres of lake
surface. It is pretty much self-regulating. A 30 to 40 acres lake can handle 30-40 fishing
boats.
Bob Miller - Thought the access should remain as it is and the $200,000 should be put to better
use.
Mike Markell, DNR - They have 35-40 lakes they are working on right now; they haven't singled
out Crooked Lake.
Bob Miller - Crooked Lake has a beautiful and adequate public
contends they have a suitable access for the size of the lake.
a quarter of a million at the end of a swamp.
park and beach right now and
"You are talking about spending
Gloria Frederickson, 13641 Heather St. N.W, - She lives next door to the park and has two
questions. 1. You don't maintain the park now. ,Where are you going to get additional help
to maintain three more lots? Three years ago a iree fell, four weeks later it was removed.
It gets cut maybe twice during the summer, there is no weed control. They have put sod in
and it gets overrun by the weeds. 2. Park use - There has never been a group for good down
there. At night, yes, kids are smoking. In the winter there are snowmobiles. There is no
control and no patrolling at all.
Chairman Mand - Explained it doesn1t take that much more time to mow a large park than it does
a small one, most of the time is spent traveling to and from, and admitted there has been a
problem with maintenance. We are getting equipment and manpower on a gradual basis to maintain
these sites.
Gloria Frederickson - Wanted to know from the DNR if they would put it in writing that there
will be just eight parking spaces or would they come through and cut all the trees and blacktop
the whole thing over.
Del Barber - The eight parking spaces is currently in' the agreement between the City of Andover
and the DNR. That is the limit, minimum and maximum, it shall be eight sites.
Art Sloth, 13624 Gladiola St. N.W. - He was for the project in the beginning. At last
night's meeting he was one of the two that voted yes for the park and the plan. He still
wants to say yes but wants the City to realize the concerns. He questioned 8 spaces only
drawing in 8 people. The boat traffic on the lake will increase but he is still basically
for the idea. He feels there should be some regulations as there are problems already.
Chairman Mand - Before the DNR or anyone else was contacted, one concern was extra traffic on
the lake and how can it be controlled. He was told surface zoning could be used to control
" ':., and he does appreciate the people I s concerns.
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Question from audience - Do you live on the lake? (No, I do not.) You don't have to live with
it, we do.
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P!J.ge #7 - Minutes
January 10, 1980
Jim Sandstrom, 13008 Crooked Lake Blvd. N.W. - He doesn't understand the concern part. He
~ )preciates the public wanting to use the lake but who are we concerned about? The 200 people
~hat live around the lake who are concerned about the water, or the 8 people who are going to
use it on the weekend. $200,000 for 8 parking spaces or 8 people. No one from northern or
southern Minnesota or Minnetonka are going to come to see Crooked Lake. There is a problem
now, why isn't there more concern about the people that are taking care of the lake? He's
talked to fisherman not living on the lake and they don't mind getting their boat in there
at all. When the ramp gets there, it won't be fishing boats that will use it and there won't
be just 8 boats. They will be lined up and down Bunker Lake Blvd. There is no way to control
it.
Carl Stromer, 13336 Gladiola St. N.W. - He is the closest person to the water skiers on the
lake and he is frightened to death over the amount. There is a jump on the lake and one
person wanted to hold a jump school last summer. He had a few questions. What other lakes
in Andover are suitable for a park? (None.) Why is it necessary for Andover to have a park
on the lake, thre are a lot of areas for parks that are not on lakes, like Minneapolis.
(Parks and lakes go together.) Who is going to police that and who will pay for the policing?
The Sheriff's Office doesn't have that much money. (They are under contract to the City.)
How much are they paid? (About $100,000.00 a yearj Who will pay for the lawsuits when the
falling water skiers get injured? Who gave Crooked Lake School authority for parking? He
wondered if Mr. Johnson was playing politics in order to get elected to something and didn't
think he, (Mr. Johnson) had any authority to give the school's parking lot up. In the summer,
they put pontoons out in the middle of the lake for swimming. For what purpose is the
DNR buying these houses? There are 11,000 lakes in the State of Minnesota. How can they
afford to put $200,000 into one little lake? Who is going to pay for the yearly upkeep of the
lake. He then mentioned the noise on the lake early in the morning and late at night. There
is not a person who had a boat on the lake that would be safe from vandalism or theft if this
project goes through. Several people in the audience agreed with him.
Chairman l~nd - stated he didn't see where that would change from the situation they have right
now, there is an access at present.
Tom Funk - There has been a lot of talk about 8, 10, 15 boats coming to the lake as visitors.
He differs with the opinion that the added traffic wouldn't be a problem. When you get
4 boats going from sunup to sundown, there isn't much room on the lake. The people on the
lake tend to discipline themselves. The people using the park will go, go and go because
there isn't anything else to do.
Person in audience - They have a canoe which can't be used on Saturday or Sunday because of
the power boats.
Chairman Mand - Most of the comments boil down to a problem that already exists. The
audience agreed.
Lois Sarantakis wanted to hear what the person from Coon Rapids had to say as she has heard
of the problem on paving 133rd and didn't think cities cooperated too much.
Rick Packer, Coon Rapids City Planner - The City, to his knowledge, has not been asked for
input. He was aware of the project through the State Planning Agency as Coon Rapids has
also applied for a grant. (Was the City (Coon Rapids) concerned about the lake when they
ran their sewer into the lake?) They are not running any sewers into the lake now, they
_were. They were private septic systems but they have extended the trunk line and are now on
F :le City system. (I'm talking about storm sewers. You didn't consult anybody about that.
'-lbat is one of the worst pollutants to the lake there is.) Storm sewers have always been a
big problem no matter where you put it. We run it into the ]A1ssissippi and into the creeks.
He was not employed by the City of Coon Rapids when the storm sewer was run into the lake and
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could not justify the reasons.
r--1rl Stromer - felt all this was falling on deaf ears. How much money does the DNR have
'-Chis year to put into lakes?
Mike 1furkell, DNR - 3.8 million state-wide. In response to another question, $200,000
for Crooked Lake is a little on the high side.
Person from audience - Years ago before the public access, the DNR came out and stocked it.
The way the access is now, what kind of program can you do for the lake as against what is
proposed?
Ed Feiler, DNR - At the present time, according to the guidelines set up by the Metropolitan
Council, what exists there does not constitute a public access. It will not be stocked as
it is. (Then this year you stocked it against State law?) Yes.
Toxification of lakes was then explained. The need for this is to try and get rid of the
rough fish in order.to obtain a large game fish population.
Person from audience - What is your definition of a public access?
Ed Feiler, DNR - Adequate parking, one parking space for every 20 acres of lake, for lakes
in the metropolitan area.
Carl Stromer - In the metro area, aren't some lakes like Cedar Lake, Lake of the Isles and
Lake Calhoun restricted from boat ramps?
Mike Markell, DNR - Yes, some are. The City of Minneapolis has entire ownership around the
lakes and they then have the right to control the use of the lakes. The same applies to the
boundary waters canoe area, the Forestry Service owns the land.
Carl Stromer - suggested to put restrictions on Crooked Lake.
Chairman Mand - This is one of the reasons for this hearing tonight.
Break - 9:10 to 9:20 p.m,
Phil Frederickson - felt there was no place in this park to park a car. They are talking
about making a nice park for the Fredericksons, He claimed no one was going to come to a
park they have to walk two miles to get to and down Bunker Lake Blvd. Until you get parking
space, not for the boat landing, but for the park, it won't be used. Until it is landscaped
and developed, he doesn't see where they are accomplishing anything. He does not want to see
the City of Andover to lose control of those three pieces of property, They should not be
owned or maintained by the DNR.
Chairman Mand - The agreement between the DNR and the City of Andover lays out terms and
conditions for the use of the parcels. If the DNR purchases the sites, it is only reasonable
that they will maintain ownership.
Carl Stromer - Then they will have complete control of the lake. Someone is going to be
responsible for maintenance, whose going to pay for that?
_Stewart Dahl - asked the DNR if they are going to go ahead and purchase those properties no
: 'ltter what the City does?
,------/
Del Barber, DNR - That's a good question right now. We do have a mandate to purchase accesses
adequate on every lake. We have already started work on this one and it is very likely we
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will pursue the project further, whether it be with the City of Andover, or whether it be
.strictly DNR.
~ewart Dahl - In other words, we have no say in it anyway.
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Del Barber, DNR - I'm not say' we wouldn't back off but it would be very questionable whether
we would or would not at this 'Point.
Mike Markell, DNR - Our main purpose is to work closely with local governments. We don't
like to come in and ramrod something through. Whether we purchase this access or not, this
lake is still on the priority list for an improved access. The law does not require us to
hold public hearings.
Stewart Dahl - appreciates the DNR telling the truth. They don't have to hold any public
hearings, but they are here. They aren't mandated to specifically buy the land but they will
anyway. If you do buy those lots, or one of them, you will then own that property and can
then build a ramp down to the lake.
Mike Markell, DNR - That is true.
Stewart Dahl - So the City's intention is to put a ramp on the lake so they then can
"control" the access in the hope you won't build your own ramp.
Mike Markell, DNR - We have an agreement with the City and have to honor that agreement at
this time.
Katherine Miller - reiterated her earlier comments regarding more than one unit of government
being involved and wanted to lmow if there would be a public hearing on this.
Del Barber, DNR - Again, the State does not require a pUblic hearing.
Chairman Mand - Technically, a public hearing has already been held. This was included in the
Comprehensive Park Development Plan and a hearing has been held on this plan. Although
separate notices were not mailed to every resident in Andover, the legal requirements were
met by publiShing the notice in the Anoka County Union.
Katherine ~A1ller - felt, as a courtesy, notices should have been published in the Coon Rapids,
Blaine and Anoka papers. If a public hearing is not held, there might be some legal
ramifications. She thought the DNR should have an agreement with Coon Rapids as those
residents will also be affected.
Mayor Jerry Windschitl - stated the two issued should be divorced. If nothing was done
about the ramp, he ffiked how many feel there is an existing problem on the lake and needs
some surface zoning. (About 6 or 7 people raised their hand.) To his lmowledge, there has
never been a formal complaint from either the residents or the Sheriff's Office as to problems
on the lake. Comments from the audience were they police themselves. Stewart Dahl stated
he felt most of the residents fear surface zoning which would restrict them.
Mayor Windschitl also commented that to his lmowledge there has always been cooperation between
the City of Andover and the City of Coon Rapids and explained the history of l33rd Ave. Also,
the City of Andover has attempted to keep storm water out of the lake. With the l33rd project,
he hopes they can-run the water backwards, away from the lake.
C)ere was some disQussion between Mayor Windschitl, Mrs,. Miller and several others regarding
Goon Rapids storm water and Andover raw sewage before sanitary sewer was available. Other
comments made were a repeat of what was said before the break. In response to a question,
Mayor Windschitl explained the Park Commission will review the comments made tonight and make
Page #10 - 1linutes
J!lluary 10, 1980
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a recommendation to the City Council. This subject will require Council action by a majority
vote. However, it is his understanding that all governmental units could be opposed to the
/-;oject but the DNR, by State law, could still put it in.
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Del Barber, DNR - That is correct. It is not necessarily what we are going to do.
Jim Seeman, 13609 Heather St. N.W. -In fairness to the DNR, this has come up several times
in the last couple of years. There have been numerous phone calls to the DNR asking what do
we have to do to get stocking - what do we have to do to get mucking - weed clearance. The
answer has been an improved access. There has been a need for DNR participation in our lake.
He thinks this is the key question, it should be divorced from the park land per se. The
lake surface issue should be resolved first and then the access question can be addressed.
He is in favor of a public access and doesn't feel he has the right to deny his neighbors
nor his fellow man the right to the lake. Fairly firm guidelines have to be set up and at
that point in time the DNR can take their recommended action on the access.
Tom Funk - Since an agreement has been signed, it sounds like a marriage and not a divorceable
thing any more.
Mayor Windschitl - The agreement was put together as a part of the grant application to make a
determination if the money would be granted to the City. There have been no final papers
signed as far as committing the City to the project~
Chairman Mand - One of the reasons for having this hearing at this time was to find out if we
had a package we could even put together. We didn't even lmow if we could go ahead with the
project at all. We had to find out if we could get funding from the State, Federal funding
and funding from the DNR. We wanted to find out these things before we held a public hearing
on it.
Jim Seeman - Is lake survival, aeration, weed control, etc. tied into the access as much as
the stocking aspect?
Mike Markell, DNR - The only thing I lmow we are restricted from doing specifically without a
public access is the stocking of fish.
Duane Ullrich, 13517 Heather St. N.W, - Does $12,000 have to be spent to provide a suitable
access.
Del Barber, DNR - A public access can be a crushed limestone rock, one suitable that you can
get in there with any vehicle pulling a boat trailer. It does not have to be a 6" concrete
ramp, 12' x 40' long where you could launch a 20' cruiser. This we would certainly discourage
because we are looking just at the fishing and sailing aspect.
Chairman Mand - We have no final site plan yet. This project is still in the preliminary
stages. The cost estimates are ballpark figures, The type of boat ramp is not locked in
yet. That is why we want some input from you as to what you want to have.
Policing was again discussed. Mrs. Miller wanted assurance that someone from the Sheriff's
Office or Coon Rapids Police would be there. Mayor Windschitl advised the Sheriff's Office
would have jurisdiction over the lake if zoned. The cities involved can suggest what to
put into a surface zoning ordinance. The Anoka County Board would be the board that actually
adopts the regulations. Mrs. Miller was then given a copy of the model zoning ordinance for
the associations reviewal. Mayor Windschitl further explained ordinances of this type come
r 'fore the Planning & Zoning Commission in a draft form. Public hearings are held. They
'lil~e whatever revisions they feel necessary. It is then placed on a City Council agenda.
The Council make their recommendations and obtain needed legal advice. These agendas are
always published in the newspaper.
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Page #11 - Minutes
January 10, 1980
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John Bordwell, 12856 Crooked Lake Blvd. N.W. - is in favor of some type of zoning and
- some type of access to improve fishing. However, he feels what kind of regulations should
~e known before any definite decisions are made.
A question arose as to whether the DNR could sell fish. They advised they are now allowed to
sell fish. There are private hatcheries where fish can be purchased for stocking purposes
after obtaining a DNR permit.
John Evans, 13208 Gladiola St. N.W. - felt it was a black and white situation, do nothing or
do the whole thing. Possibly there are cheaper alternatives. He also mentioned the litter
which gets thicker in the area of the public beach and questioned maintenance.
Phil Frederickson - asked if there was going to be any dredging. The answer was no. He
again stated there is no room for parking for people using the park. The agreement states
in part that you cannot hinder anybody using the lake with parking in there.
Del Barber, DNR - The reason that was put in there was so that it would not interfere with the
public access. As far as using it for the picnic grounds, he could see no problem during the
week.
Chairman Mand suggested additional angle parking spaces near the picnic area.
Carl Stromer was concerned over fishhouses and snowmobiles in the winter.
Chairman 1Jand - There is an ordinance prohibiting snowmobiles in parks, in fact all motorized
vehicles are restricted in parks. You have to go through the park to get to the lake.
Mayor Windschitl - The water itself is public water. If the project goes through, he would
like to see certain hours set and a gate installed across the ramp such as done in Bunker Hills.
Councilman Lachinski - stated the residents have brought forth some pros and cons to the
proposed access and have done well. He thanked the DNR and Park Commission for their efforts.
The City of Andover does not have a great deal of funds to develop parks, and it is always
looking for outside funds to improve parks. This project was brought before the Council many
times and they recognized there was no possible way the City could afford to go ahead with a
project of this nature. He feels there is a problem of control specifically in the area of
speed boats. If that problem can be dealt with, then he thinks it would be a good project.
One point he feels hasn't been coveredis the nuisance problem that currently exists to the
two residents on either side of the access now.
Duane Ullrich, 13517 Heather St. N.W. - commented one way or another, the taxpayers will end
up paying for it.
Councilman Lachinski - stated if it were not for the DNR purchasing the houses, the City could
not afford the project. Water and parks naturally go together in terms of preference of use.
If it was upgraded and maintained, it would be used. He thought the association could come
up with some good ideas on how to control the access and the lake. If it is found that it
would be impossible to control, he felt it would be a "no goll situation. (The traffic problem
on Bunker Lake Blvd. was again mentioned.) Councilman Lachinski stated the Park Commission
has taken the safety factor into consideration. Also, they are looking at the project as a
return on investment, It is expensive, but when you figure how far people have to go to reach
water to go fishing, that costs money too. Personally he didn't feel $200,000 was justified
__on this project but at some point in time, perhaps 20-25 yea~ the three lots would probably
C~nd up park property through default as they are too small to rebuild on.
Wally Anderson, 13445 Heather St. N.W. - stated the City could wait.
Page #12 - Minutes
;Tanuary 10, 1980
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Chairman Mand - We have to look at the City as a whole. The majority of the residents do not
live on the lake and these people have some right to use the lake.
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'-l~ry Randall, 13256 Gladiola St. N.W. - asked if the DNR's main concern was to put fish in
the lake. She was told this was a concern but fishing is not the only recreational use. The
lake is too shallow and they have been told for years by the DNR that it will never be a good
fishing lake. They have had three winter kills. The DNR then explained they are recoJIl.mending
an aeration system, the cost of which is usually paid by the local unit of government. At
present there is no money available to the State for these systems. The law is such that if
monies were made available, it is possible to get State financing. Mrs. Randall felt it was
too much money to spend on a lake that shallow because the fish are going to die anyway.
Ed Feiler, DNR - explained it does not winter kill that often. This summer they found
nine year old northern pikes. Some years there is only a partial kill, depending upon the
oxygen level in the lake. Bullheads, bass and blue gills are the first to go. They also
found young bass.
Jim Seeman - wanted to know the DNR's and the City's time schedule.
Mike Markell, D}ffi - stated they will still continue negotiating with the landowners to purchase
the property.
Chairman Mand - would like to see the problem of surface zoning resolved as soon as possible
and before the acquisition is complete and the project totally committed,
Wally Anderson commented he felt the problem of the park and ramp should be looked into first.
Several members of the audience agreed with him. Chairman Mand felt the residents wanted a
private lake. Mrs. Randall stated it isn't private as there is a public access to the lake
now. One person stated a 150 h.p., 16-18' boat was launched from that access every weekend
last summer.
Del Barber, DNR - At this site, in order to launch a boat that size, you have to go out 20 ft.
in order to get to a depth of 2 1/2 ft. There was some discussion over whether or not a boat
that large could be launched at the site.
Public informational hearing closed at 10:30 p.m.
Chairman Mand thanked the residents for their comments and input and hoped the problems could
be resolved.
In response to a question, Del Barber advised the ramp was taken out of the Coon Rapids park
because it was too close to the swimming beach and created a safety hazard.
MOTION by Nichols, seconded by Mand, to adjourn. Hearing ajourned 10:33 p.m.
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PROPOSED CROOKED LAKE BOAT RAMP
The City of Andover has applied for a 50% Federal grant and a 25% State
grant to construct a boat ramp at the north end of Crooked Lake, The
State Planning Agency ranked the preliminary application #1 in priority.
Andover's share of the cost would be $6,450,00, the State grant would
be $6,450.00 and the Federal grant would be $12,900.00.
There are two small separated City parks at this location. Negotiations
are under way between the Department of Natural Resources and several
property owners to purchase the properties between the parks creating a
larger park. The small houses will then be removed or relocated.
The proposed development includes a boat ramp, an access road, a parking
site plus a few picnic tables. Future development would be the installation
of picnic grills and possibly toilet facilities as there is sanitary sewer
available in this area. Due to the size and location of the park, it will
remain a passive area.
Anoka-Hennepin School District #11 is planning on conducting classes in
boating and water safety through their Community School, Summer School and
regular school programs.
By providing a suitable access to the lake, it will aid the Anoka County
Sheriff's Office in providing faster water rescue service should the need
arise. At the present time there are no improved boat accesses on the lake.
The development of the park will cause an increase in traffic to the area.
Although the full impact of this is not known, it is not expected to create
a problem. Crooked Lake School has given permission to use their parking
lot as an overflow lot. Measures are being taken to control boat size and
motor horsepower by surface zoning the lake. This spring the DNR stocked
the lake somewhat. They will restock the lake once this project is under way
in order to improve fiShing.
A Joint Powers Agreement has been signed by the City of Andover and the
Department of Natural Resources. This was necessary since the DNR will
maintain ownership of the parcels they purchase. The City will be
responsible for the maintenance of these parcels. This project has
received approval from the Anoka County Board of Commissioners as it is
in keeping with the County's comprehensive plans for public accesses.
Representatives from the Department of Natural Resources will be present
at the informational hearing to answer any questions you may have.
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Wes Mand, Chairman
Andover Park Commission
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M E M 0 RAN 0 U M
TO:
Park Commission
COPIES TO:
FROM:
R. Bakke
DATE::
1-22-80
REFERENCE:
Misc.
3:30 p.m., 1-22-80, I have just finished page #10 of the minutes from the hearing on
1-10-80 and am afraid if mailed tomorrow they won't get to your house in time. Please
come a little early on the 24th to read minutes as they are on the agenda. Some people
from the Coon Rapids Park and Recreation Commission will be here and possibly a planner
and some residents....
Rum River Hockey Assoc.
Last fall Rose Richmond told Ray the hockey rink at City Hall wouldn't be used at all.
We now understand she is not involved in scheduling.
On 1-3-80, Paul Horsch said they would not help maintain rink.
The second week in January, Lyle Molskness of the association offered his and possibly
others services to help flood and maintain.
Monday morning Roger Anderson told the Mayor Pat Lindquist got a copy of the hockey
schedule the previous Monday, 1-14-80. No such copy was received.
4:45 p.m., 1-21-80, d'Arcy Bosell had a schedule in her possession and a copy was made.
The ice has thawed and broke a few times during the month, the last break being yesterday.
It seems to be holding today because it is colder.
Depending upon the weather, the City is maintaining Northwoods, Red Oaks, Quickstrom,
Shady Knoll and the two at City Hall. Last year only City Hall was flooded and maintained
by staff. There have been many complaints over the fact the hockey rink is not in good
condition or flooded. People do not understand you cannot flood and keep water in rinks
when the temperature is over 32 F. Enough said!!!
AGENDA - 1-24-80
1. Crooked Lake Boat Ramp P. H.
2. Rum Hi ver Hockey Assoc.
3. Equipment purchases - (current catalogs have been received.)
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Jlrzoka-$!e~~epirz cJrztkperztkrzl School CdJisllicl 110_ 11
/~rooked lake Elementary School
'_J2939 Bunker Lake Blvd. N. W.
Anoka, Minnesota 55303
Wallace R. Johnson, Principal
~no'a. d'finnuota :5:5303
Phone: 755.4020
1/10/80
Lewis W. Finch, Superintendent
Alvin Salmela, Assistant Superintendent
S. M. Cleveland, Assistant Superintendent
TO: Whom It May Concern
FROM: Wally Johnson, Principal at CLS
RE: Stocking Crooked Lake with Game Fish
On occasion in past years various teachers at Crooked Lake School
used the lake, Crooked Lake, as an educational/recreational site and
experience for some of the students, Le., students and teachers took an
hour or so and caught sunfish, rough fish, etc., as a fun/learning exper-
ience during the school day. They also studied the lake and shore en-
vironment.
As we look into the future it would be nice if CLS students had
an opportunity to catch game fish, etc. We do consider the lake as
part of the local learning environment and would hope to use it far more
extensively in the future for educational/recreational purposes.
Presently the CLS parking lot is available during June, July, and
August and on week-ends for cars and boat trailers to use. This affords
a measure of safety for those who use the public access to the lake.
I would ask the DNR and other levels of governance to take into
consideration the educational/recreational concerns of Crooked Lake School
as the various levels cooperate to develop the north end of the lake for
public use, i.e., recreation and education.
I am aware of some strong feelings in opposition to the preceeding
paragraph, but I believe reasonable people can work out regulations and
enforcement to guard against abuse.
I am sorry I could not be at tonight's meeting, but a previous
committment in Minneapolis keeps me from attending.
Thank you for consideration of these views.
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