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HomeMy WebLinkAboutNovember 9, 1982 C.J L.J ~ ~ ANDOVER ..-\ V REGULAR PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING NOVEMBER 9, 1982 AGENDA Call to order - 7:30 P.M. Approval of Minutes - 10/28/82 1. Comm. #10-82-2 Downtown Deli Amended Special Use Permit Public Hearing 2. Comm. #10-82-5 City of Andover Variance 3. Comm. #10-82-3 Dean Carlson Variance 4. Comm. #10-82-4 Marius Bakker Variance 5. Comm. #6-81-1 Review of Neighborhood Business Zones o .', U l) (J CITY 01 ANDOVER ') , j REGULAR PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING NOVEMBER 9, 1982 MINUTES The regularly scheduled Andover Planning and Zoning Commission meeting was called to order by Chairperson d'Arcy Bosell at 7:32 P.M., Tuesday, November 9,1982 at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard N.W., Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners Present: Apel, Elling, Perry, Randklev, Spotts Commissioners Absent: Anstett Also Present: Dean Carlson; Marius Bakker; Frank Padula; Jerry Windschitl Dean Carlson Variance (Comm. #10-82-3) Dean Carlson, 524 - 157th Avenue N.W. - stated that when he came in to apply for a building permit to construct a detached garage the Building Inspector drew a sketch of Mr. Carlson's property showing where the house is located and where the garage would be located. Mr. Carlson noted that he did not look at the drawing and when he began construction he discovered that the garage is in front of the front line of the house. He noted that the garage is already built. Chairperson Bosell noted that the criteria for variances do not apply in this particular case because there is no hardship created. It was simply a mistake made by the Building Inspector. ,,) ~-I~OTION by Apel, seconded by Randklev that the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council approval of a variance requested by Dean J. Carlson, 524 - 157th Avenue N.W., to construct a detached garage closer to the front lot line than the house for the following reason: The garage is in that location because of an error on the original drawing which was approved by the city Building Inspector. It may be noted that the variance does not fit the requirements of Ordinance 8, Section 5.04. The variance approval is recommended solely on the basis of the error by a City Official. The variance request is pursuant to Ordinance 8, Section 4.05(F). Motion carried unanimously. This will go to the City Council December 7, 1982. Downtown Deli Amended Special Use Permit Public Hearing (Comm. #10-82-3) Chairperson Bosell opened the public hearing. Frank Padula, 4550 - 173rd Avenue N.W. - stated that he would like to put some tables in the Downtown Deli. Commissioner Perry felt there was a question of what the nature of a deli is, so she called different communities and asked how they handle delis. One of the questions she asked was if they had a separate classification for a deli. She then read the following: City of Anoka - have no separate classification for deli; if incidental to a grocery store would have to meet requirements for grocery. A restaurant is allowed in commercial zones, downtown retail and shopping center zones. Allowed by conditional use in highway business zone and , -small business zones. In those areas where a restaurant is not specifically allowed they ~ /nay not allow a full scale restaurant but would consider something on a smaller scale as an -accessory convenience use. City of Blaine - ordinances in Blaine do not distinguish between a deli and a restaurant. It was Kim Briggs' opinion that a limited industrial area should , , . . ,--) . Planning and Zoning Commlsslon Meetlng November 9, 1982 - Minutes Page 2 '(Downtown Deli Special Use Permit, Cont.) , / , ,-.J not allow retail sales which would include gifts, etc. The reasons he gave were because of the setbacks, traffic patterns (large trucks) etc. which exist in a limited industrial area. The traffic generated by a gift shop/deli would not be compatible with those activities allowed in LI. He did not see a problem with a small scale deli serving the needs of employees in the limited industrial area. City of Champlin - No distinction between restaurant and deli in ordinance. The deli they have is incidental to a grocery store and allows no seating of patrons. That deli is governed by the ordinance as it relates to grocery stores. The restaurant they have is by conditional use and makes no reference to seating capacity. In the case of a deli that is not incidental to another use the most restrictive requirements would apply. City of Coon Rapids - no distinction between restaurant and deli in ordinance. Rick Packer stated he would consider it either a restaurant or a fast food establishment. Would have to meet requirements of a restaurant. The main distinction would be different parking requirements. City of New Brighton - no distinction between restaurant and deli in ordinance. A deli was licensed but it was strictly carry-out under grocery store ordinance requirements. If sit down then it would be considered a restaurant (Dave Fridgen noted he definitely would consider a 5 table deli as a restaurant). If the establishement is a combination (like a donut shop) the city determines if the greatest volume is with carry out or sit down and applied the appropriate ordinance. Commissioner Spotts noted that the main purpose of a deli is to go in, purchase the food and leave. Sometimes you have to wait for the food to be prepared though. In that case, why not sit down, have a cup of coffee and wait. He further noted that he went to the Downtown Deli and ordered a chicken which they cook on a rotisserie. He had to wait until it was oackaged up so he sat down and had a cup of coffee. ) '. I 'Frank Padula presented some pictures he had taken of various delis in Anoka, New Brighton, and Soderville. He stated that for security purposes he was not allowed to take pictures of the deli in the Country Store in Red Owl. However, all of the delis have either tables and chairs or stools and counters. He also noted that they are getting older customers who like to sit around and chat. Commissioner Elling asked how many people Mr. Padula was planning to sit at these five tables. Mr. Padula stated that he is asking for up to five tables because if he asked for only three and found a need for more, he didn't want to have to come back for another special use permit. When weather permits, he would like to move some of the tables outside. He noted that the five tables would probably seat 20 people. Chairperson Bosell asked how big the tables will be. Mr. Paduala stated they will be 18 to 20 inches round. Commissioner Perry noted that she would like to see a scale drawing of the building to see if five tables would fit in there. Mr. Padula noted that the area where they plan to put the tables is 10 to 15 feet big. Commissioner Perry asked Mr. Padula how many parking spaces they have for just the deli. Mr. Padula noted that the paved area has 35 parking spaces including those for the liquor store. For the deli alone there are 12 to 15 parking spaces. ~ommissioner Elling asked if Mr. Padula will be enlarging the space any further. Mr. '--~adula stated that if it goes well he will enlarge. Commissioner Elling stated that he meant enlarging the deli. Mr. Padula noted that the deli is as big as it's going to get. At this time the secretary went to get the building permit so the commissioners could see if there was sufficient room for the tables and also to check on the parking spaces. ,~ Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting November 9, 1982 - Minutes Page 3 u ~ tDowntown Deli Special Use Permit, Cont.) John Theiss, 3124 - 164th Avenue N.W. - asked what enforcement provisions there will be in the event someone goes to the liquor store, buys a bottle of whiskey and then goes to the deli and sits at a table to drink their whiskey. Als~ asked who is going to clean up the area when they move the tables outside. Chairperson Bosell noted that the owners of the deli are responsible for keeping the area clean. If there is a problem City Hall will get complaints and they will notify the owners, who will have to clean it up. Regarding the purchasing of a bottle from the liquor store, Chairperson Bosell stated that letting someone drinking on the premises would be a violation of their license and didn't feel they would let that occur. Commissioner Elling felt it would be against their best interests to let that happen. Mr. Theiss noted that none of the other delis mentioned have liquor stores around them. Karen Schelberg, 16135 Vintage Street N.W. - along with the concern about the litter, they have an increased amount of traffic in their development. Chairperson Bosell asked Mrs. Schelberg if she thought the increased traffic has to do with the liquor store and deli. Mrs. Schelberg felt it is the cause. She also stated that there is an increase in the number of broken bottles on the roads. Chairperson Bosell asked Mrs. Schelberg is there is also an increase in the number of broken ;ottles in the area. Mrs. Schelberg stated there is an increase and people are also running stop signs. Chairperson Bosell suggested that Mrs. Schelberg call the Sheriff's Department to report the people running stop signs. Mrs. Schelberg stated that no one wants to call the Sheriff because they would have to sign a complaint and they have vandalism in their area already and don't need more. Chairperson Bosell felt that the increased traffic and people running stop signs live in Mrs. Schelberg's neighborhood because unless you know the area, someone is not going to drive through that area to the deli. She asked Mrs. Schelberg what kind of bottles they are that are broken on the roads. Mrs. Schelberg stated that they are beer bottles. Commissioner Perry was confused on what the address is for the property we are dealing with tonight. She was informed that it is 3131 - 161st Avenue N.W. Commissioner Perry felt that one thing we have to consider is whether or not we want to increase the retail sales in a limited industrial area. One of the reasons she is concerned is because of the article in the paper stating that they are selling gifts, nativity scenes, etc. She also asked that since we allow retail sales, are we going to limit what they can sell. Commissioner Apel asked what kind of limitations we would have and what the purpose would be. Mr. Padula noted that when they applied for a special use permit for the deli, the city amended the ordinance to allow retail sales in a limited industrial area. He also noted that they patrol that whole area and pick up litter and bottles. Some of the stuff he has picked up is stuff they don't even sell. \ \ --Chairperson Bosell noted that part of the rationale for allowing retail sales in limited industrial areas is that there was already retail sales there before the liquor store and deli went in. When we opened it up to retail sales we adopted the definition that was already in the ordinance. As a result, when the deli came in these kinds of things were , \ , ) Planning and Zoning Commissi~Meeting November 9, 1982 - Minutes Page 4 / '(Downtown Deli Special Use Permit, Cont.) \.J allowed. We can put conditions on a special use permit and an amended special use permit. Ordinance 8, Section 7.03 suggests some kinds of things we may want to put on as conditions. u Commissioner Elling stated that he would like to see the size of the parking lot for the del i . Chairperson Bosell noted that the deli has no room for any cooking facilities or industrial dishwashing facilities. They have a three tub sink. With the area they have now, they couldn't even fry hamburgers or cook a pot of chili. She also noted that at Apache Plaza there is a cheese shop that sells cheese. sausage, herring & gifts. In Coon Rapids there is a deli with no cooking facilities and they sell a huge amount of gifts. She felt these types of delis are separate from a restaurant because they have no cooking facilities. A restaurant, in her mind, would have a waitress and a printed menu. Commissioner Perry felt that the delis Chairperson Bosell mentioned do not have the same intensity of industrial traffic that the Downtown Deli generates. She asked if we are going to put in a use that is going to generate cars and walkers in the midst of industrial activity. She noted that this request has continued to escalate from what we began with. Commissioner Apel felt we are looking at normal progress. John Theiss stated that he understands what Commissioner Perry means be escalation. There are a lot of places that have video games. Are we going to have that there also? /", ~~ommissioner Randklev felt that the Planning Commission should know what the parking requirements for this particular use are. Chairperson Bosell stated that the parking would determine the number of tables that Mr. Padula can have. Commissioner Elling asked what kinds of businesses are in the industrial park right now. Chairperson Bosell noted that the following businesses are there: Ace Solid Waste. D & E Cabinets, Riccar Heating, Adcon, Gilbertson Septic Tanks, etc. Commissioner Elling asked if all of these people exit onto Round Lake Boulevard. Chairperson Bosell noted that they all do. JJ's and the deli both exit onto County Road 20. She asked what the Commission would like to see for parking requirements. Commissioner Elling felt we should use the 150 square foot requirement. He would like to see the seating limitations put in also as he feels that is a key issue. MOTION by Elling, seconded by Spotts to close the public hearing. Carried unanimously. Chairperson Bosell noted that Ordinance 8, Section 5.03(C)(7) deals with amended special use permit, Ordinance 8R allows for retail shopping, Ordinance 8, Section 7.03 allows for a Special Use Permit and Ordinance 8, Section 3.02(BBBB) is the definition of Retail Shopping. MOTION by Elling, seconded by Apel that the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council approval of an amended Special Use Permit requested by Frank Padula, doing business as the Downtown Deli located at 3131 - 161st Avenue N.W., pursuant to / "0rdinance 8, Section 5.03(C)(7) under the following conditions: 1) The permit would be \.Jcontingent upon seating of 20 persons maximum and five tables; 2) The Special Use Permit would be reviewed on a yearly basis; 3) A public hearing was held and there was certain opposition to the amended special use permit; 4) That it not significantly affect the health, safety and welfare of the community. Nor would it cause serious or additional , \ U Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting November 9, 1982 - Minutes Page 5 ~_)Downtown Deli Special Use Permit, Cont.) traffic congestion from the existing use; 5) It would not seriously depreciate the surrounding property values. . '. o Commissioner Spotts asked if it would be advantageous to add that it would allow consumption of self-service food on the premises. That would eliminate the person called a waitress. Commissioner Apel felt that would be redundant. What if Mr. Padula wants to bring some- thing over to an elderly person seated at one of the tables. Commissioner Spotts concurred with Commissioner Apel. Vote on motion: Yes - Apel, Elling, Randklev, Spotts, Bosell; No - Perry This will go to the City Council on December 7, 1982. Marius Bakker Variance (Comm. #10-82-4) Marius Bakker, 16409 Crosstown Boulevard N.W. - stated that he would like to build two buildings, one an agricultural building and the other one for general storage, on the land he has available. The buildings would be in front of the front line of the house. Commissioner Spotts asked whose pipeline runs across the property. Chairperson Bosell noted that it is the Minnesota Pipleine. Mr. Spotts then asked who wide it is. Mr. Bakker stated that it is 30 feet. chairperson Bosell asked Mr. Bakker if he planned to start any businesses in either of the .two buildings. He replied that he does not. He stated that his dream is to have a total estate, that is why he is having the property graded and landscaped. MOTION by Perry, seconded by Elling that the Andover Planningmd Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council approval of a variance from the requirements of Ordinace 8, Sections 5.04 and 4.05 (F) requested by Marius Bakker, 16409 Crosstown Boulevard. Because of wet, marshy conditions, a wildlife pont and pipeline, other areas of the property are not appropriate for building. Motion carried unanimously. This will go to the City Council on December 7, 1982. Recess 9:10 - Reconvene 9:20 City of Andover Variance (Comm. #10-82-5) Jerr Windschitl, 2312 South Coon Creek Drive- stated that the reason for this item appearing on the agenda is because t e Clty ounCl as had it on their agenda several times. The city did issue a sign permit in error. The Planning and Zoning Commission should review it and make their objective recommendation as to what happened. Chairperson Bosell asked how this item came to the City Council's attention. Mayor Windschitl stated that when the Special Use Permit for JJ's Liquor was before the Council for its annual review, there was an objection to the sign advertising liquor and it was on a parcel of land it should not be on. . , ,~hairperson Bosell asked the mayor who the person objecting was Bruce Perry. as to what did or didn't take place on the objection was from. Mr. Windschitl noted that He then went on to say that the question then came up this. /- , Pl . d Z . C . . \...M) . annlng an onlng ommlSSlon eetlng November 9, 1982 - Minutes Page 6 ( , \.J '(City of Andover Variance, Cont.) , --./ Frank Padula - stated that because of the situation he would like Commissioner Perry to remove herself because of a conflict of interest. Commissioner Perry stated that the reason the question was asked by Mr. Perry was because a letter had been sent to JJ's by the city stating that the sign was not property placed. She further stated that she saw no problem with her stepping down during this discussion. Commissioner Elling stated that there are two problems here - one, that Vicki issued a sign permit and two, a man from Pepsi told him that the sign was put up on April 27, 1982 and the permit was issued on April 28, 1982. Mr. Padula felt that this information was incorrect. He stated that while Sign Crafters were installing the sign, he asked them if they had gotten a permit and they said no, they never get permits for signs in outlying areas. He and Mr. Reimann then went to City Hall to obtain a permit. The permit was issued the same day as the sign was installed. Commissioner Elling asked Mr. Padula if he had talked to the property owner on the other corner about placing his sign there. Mr. Padula noted that he had talked to him; however, he will not allow anyone to put a sign on his property. Commissioner Spotts noted that this particular property is strictly residential and according to the ordinance no sign can be within 75 feet of a residential district. (~r. Padula noted that he had the sign removed because someone Chairperson Bosell stated that the City Council is looking to as to what direction to take on this. through a rock through it. the Planning Commission Commissioner Elling noted that he is hard pressed to see the difference between this variance and the one for Dean Carlson. Mike Pallow, 16071 Narcissus Street N.W. - stated that the sign looks like hell. You drive past it before you even see it. Stated that he can see it out of his back window. Commissioner Elling felt that this should have come in as a special use because it has nothing do to with a hardship. Chairperson Bosell stated that the City Attorney is the one who said it should be a variance. Mr. Windschitl stated that one of the key items is the question of the issuance of the permit. Also, the permit was issued after the fact. Chairperson Bosell asked Mr. Padula if he had any documentation from Sign Crafters showing when they installed the sign. Mr. Padula said he did not. He also mentioned that he had many favorable comments regarding the sign. He told the City Attorney that he would take the sign down. Commissioner Apel told Mr. Padula that we treated him badly on some issues and better on others. He asked Mr. Padula to just take the sign down. , '1 '-I~r. Padula stated he would not drop this because one person brought it up and he has to go through with it. Chairperson Bosell stated that she would like to continue this item until the next meeting so Planning and Zoning Commissi~~eting November 9, 1982 - Minutes Page 7 (City of Andover Variance, Cont.) , , .'-/~hat Mr. Padula could obtain documentation from Sign Crafters as to when the sign was actually installed. She asked the secretary why the owner's name on the sign permit was listed as JJ's Bottle Boutique rather than P & R Properties. The secretary could not recall why it was listed as such. '--) Commissioner Spotts noted that the portion of the permit that Mr. Reimann signed states the following: 'I hereby certify that I have read and examined this application and know the same to be true and correct. All provisions of laws and ordinances governing this type of work will be complied with whether specified herein or not. The granting of a permit does not presume to give authority to violate or cancel the provisions of any other state or local law regulating construction or the performance of construction.' Mrs. Padula noted that this was done on a building permit, not a sign permit. This item will be continued to November 23, 1982. Review of Neighborhood Business Zones (Comm. #6-81-1) Commissioner Elling stated that there was some discussion about rezoning some of the Neighborhood Business property that had never been developed. He noted that he received the assessment rolls on these properties from City Hall. There are some differences in the way these properties were assessed. Back in 1976 the NB lots were assessed the same as the residential lots. In 1980 they were assessed the commercial rates. That will be a determining factor as to what we can rezone. ~~hairperson Bosell asked what the Conroy property was assessed at. Commissioner Elling stated that he was assessed $16.10 per front foot for streets and 7.7~ for storm sewer. The ones we should look at are Nemeth's, the old Hockey Inn, the lots north of the Speedy Market and Conroy's property. Out of these, we have to consider people like Mr. Nemeth. He has intentions of doing something on that property. Chairperson Bosell stated that on Conroy's property, all the grading, filling, etc. that has been done would have had to be done if he was going to develop it as residential. She asked what harm there would be in doing nothing. Commissioner Elling felt there would be none; we could be opening a can of worms. Single Family Homes W/Apartments Commissioner Elling noted that at the last City Council meeting the amendment to the ordinance passed on a 3/2 vote; however, for an ordinance change a 4/5 vote is required. He noted that he suggested to the Council that the Planning Commission look at this item again. Chairperson Bosell noted that the Minnesota Planning Agency is having some workshops and one of the topics is accessory apartments. She suggested that we wait until after the workshop to see if they have any new information. Mr. Windschitl noted that if you have a requirement of the owner being part of the building, how do you know when a property is sold under a contract that there is a new owner. , ~ -~ommissioner Apel stated that is regulatory enforcement. Mr. Windschitl stated that if you have annual review of a Special Use Permit you could have the owner show proof that he lives there. The other major concern is that people will Planning and Zoning Commissio)". ,~eting November 9, 1982 - Minutes Page 8 , .(Single Family w/Apts, Cont.) "~implY convert their homes so they will sell easier. If you have a lot of conversions taking place, you could turn a whole block into multiples. . ) \.../ Commissioner Apel thought that the purpose of this was to allow people some place to live. This item will be on the November 23rd agenda. Janett Eveland Rezoning The secretary raised the question of whether Mrs. Eveland will have to pay an additional $150.00 fee to rezone her property in the Urban Service Area to agricultural preserve. Mr. Windschitl suggested looking at the City Council minutes as this was discussed at that time and he felt that the decision then was that she didn't have to pay it. MOTION by Randklev to adjourn. Meeting adjourned at 10:55 P.M. Respectfully submitted, [L"tU:IJ ,)iCki Volk, Commission Secretary )