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HomeMy WebLinkAboutWK January 22, 2008 C I T Y o F 0 NDOVE 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER, MINNESOTA 55304 · (763) 755-5100 FAX (763) 755-8923 . WWW.CI.ANDOVER.MN.US City Council Workshop Tuesday, January 22, 2008 Conference Rooms A & B 1. Call to Order - 6:00 p.m. 2. Sheriffs Department City Code Suggestions - Planning a. Loitering b. Ultimate Fighting 3. Church in Shopping Center Zone - Planning 4. Open Space Referendum/Commission Update - Planning 0 5. Crosstown Boulevard NW/Crosstown Drive NW Discussion/06-48 - Engineering 6. Discuss Prairie Knoll Park/Parking Lot Expansion (North)/07.;.50 - Engineering 7. Update Super Rink Discussions - Administration 8. Discuss Community Education Opportunities - Administration 9. Other Business 10. Adjournment 0 ~A;'I.J~ M Wli~ ;j..-IQ-Q2( 0 SPECIAL ANDOVER CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP - JANUARY 22,2008 MINUTES The Special Council Workshop of the Andover City Council was called to order by Acting Mayor Ken Orttel, January 22,2008,6:00 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota Councilmembers present: Don Jacobson, Mike Knight, Ken Orttel, Julie Trude Councilmembers absent: Mike Gamache Also present: City Administrator Jim Dickinson Director of Public Works/City Engineer Dave Berkowitz Director of Community Development Will Neumeister Sheriff's Department Captain Tom Wells President of Andover Youth Hockey Association Tony Howard City Planner Courtney Bednarz 0 SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT CITY CODE SUGGESTIONS - PLANNING A. LOITERING Captain Tom Wells stated that the loitering deals with the businesses across from the middle school and also in the Downtown Center. The loitering ordinance is more specifIc than just trespassing, as it would give the power to the business owner and they would not necessarily have to call the police to resolve the situation. He explained that the business would have a sign they could display as well that states "no loitering". Councilmember Trude reported that some cities have dropped their ordinances against loitering as they are hard to enforce. Councilmember Knight stated that with loitering, the City would be making the rule and the kids could not retaliate against the business owners themselves, as it would be a City issue. Councilmember Trude stated that she could understand if the kids are asked to leave and still remain, but explained that she would like to eliminate some of the more broad things in the ordinance. She stated that if someone were standing outside of Tanners talking for ten minutes, they could be 0 arrested. Councilmember Jacobson reported that the crime would be a petty misdemeanor. Councilmember Trude questioned the method that would let some people pass and select others that 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 2 were loitering. She explained that fIve minutes is not a long period of time and reported that people loiter after Council meetings outside of City Hall, or at the baseball fIeld after a game for that amount of time. Captain Wells stated that the business would have to have a no loitering sign posted on the building. He explained that the option to have a sign would be given to the businesses themselves. Councilmember Orttel clarifIed that it is not against the law right now for people to loiter. Councilmember Knight explained that if there were six to eight kids standing at the door of a business, it is going to intimidate people from entering the business. Councilmember Trude stated that if there were a few ladies standing outside of Target talking, they would most likely not receive tickets. City Administrator Dickinson stated that if the business chose not to post a sign there would be nothing that the officers could do. 0 Councilmember Trude stated that she has seen ten kids standing outside of Target, but explained that those kids probably have money in their pockets that they are going to spend on the newest electronics inside the store. Captain Wells explained that there are also groups of kids that sit inside of McDonald ' s for an hour and do not purchase anything. Councilmember Trude believes the businesses should just tell the kids to leave, and thought that this ordinance would just give the officers a difficult job. Councilmember Jacobson questioned how big an issue this had become in Anoka. Captain Wells explained that it is a different story in Anoka, as cruising and loitering were a big issue there before their ordinance. City Administrator Dickinson explained that the three places where loitering has become an issue are: Andover Station near the bowling alley, the school building, and the theater; McDonald's on Bunker and Round Lake Boulevards; and between the middle school and the community center. Councilmember Trude believes that this issue would be expensive to defend in court because it is too broad. She stated that the Council could adopt a few sentences of the loitering ordinance that back 0 up the issue of trespassing. She stated that whenever you say that kids are a problem and you do not look at any other age groups, you are looking at a lawsuit. Councilmember Jacobson questioned if there were other loitering ordinances other than the ones that the Council had in front of them. 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 3 Councilmember Trude explained that if people are asked to leave and they do not, they could then be charged with a crime because that backs up the idea that the owner needs help. Councilmember Jacobson stated that if the Council wants to do something with a loitering ordinance, he believes that they should look at other cities that are not so strict. Councilmember Orttel explained that compared to other cities, this ordinance is not very strict. He stated that the previous night there were a group of kids outside of his house that he did not chase away. He reported that the next day there was graffiti near the area where the kids had been. He does not believe the age of the kids' matters. He explained that if 15 year olds are causing problems, the City needs to take care of the issue regardless of age. Captain Wells explained that whenever there is a group of young people gathered together for no reason there is the opportunity for bad activities to take place, such as people selling them drugs. He stated that the City is trying to keep them moving and get those kids into activities so that they have something positive to do. He added that the high school is dealing with some of their issues 0 intemally. He explained that the kids that are loitering are not involved in activities. They are just loitering and coming up with bad activities to participate in. Councilmember Trude stated that in her opinion there needs to be more gravity to the situation other than someone being in one place for fIve minutes. Captain Wells explained that with any execution of a law there is a level of discretion on the part of the officer. City Administrator Dickinson stated that the intent was to put the topic in front of the Council and get things started on the issue ofloitering. He explained that the loitering ordinance that was brought forth as being good and effective was the ordinance from Anoka He advised staff to investigate how other cities word their ordinances on loitering. Councilmember Trude explained that when kids are fIlling out college applications and have to list any crimes they have been convicted of, they might have to list loitering because they stood in front of a business for fIve minutes. Councilmember Knight questioned if officers just move those kids along and not ticket them. Captain Wells explained that the ordinance would just be a helpful tool. He explained that the reason the Anoka ordinance was brought forward is that it is effective and because a lot of kids from 0 Andover go into Anoka who are familiar with the ordinance. He explained that if kids were repeatedly caught for loitering, they would be ticketed. Councilmember Trude questioned whether there is a lot of defiance from kids when talking to the officers. 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 4 Captain Wells stated that the majority of kids are going to leave if they are told to leave. Councilmember Knight stated that kids standing in front of a business will deter some people from entering, therefore the loitering will hurt that business. Councilmember Trude questioned if people lined up in front of a business for days to purchase a new electronic item would be ticketed, since the business is closed and they will be there for more than fIve minutes. Captain Wells advised that those people would have a purpose for standing in front of the building. Councilmember Orttel advised that the police do a lot of warning people instead of giving out tickets. Captain Wells pointed out the barking dog ordinance. He explained that not every time that a dog barks do the police get a call and issue a ticket. 0 Councilmember Orttel suggested that stafflook at the surrounding cities' ordinances for loitering and get some clarifIcation. The consensus of the Council was for staff to look at the loitering ordinances of surrounding cities to find a wording and definition that better suits the City of Andover. B. ULTIMATE FIGHTING Captain Tom Wells explained that this request was generated from the schools because of situations that they have identifIed as problems, and they thought that this ordinance would be helpful in dealing with the problem. He stated that students mostly have been gathering together as a group and watching and/or participating in contest-style fIghting. He reported that students are mostly from the high school, although some of the students are from the middle school. The information they gathered came from the school resource office at Andover High School. Captain Wells stated that the students gather at the area under the railroad bridge overpass for the fIghts and officers have found videos of the fIghting on "You Tube". He explained that other cities have dealt with the issue with an ordinance and found it helpful as a preventative action. He stated that as an assault it is easy to deal with the fIghters, but explained that the ordinance would address the spectators as well. It would be more of a proactive action for Andover, as it is not a huge problem at this point. City Administrator Dickinson stated that he does not hear any opposition on the ultimate fIghting concept. He questioned if any changes need to be made to the ordinance. 0 Councilmember Jacobson questioned the concept of the ultimate fIghting, as it pertained to ultimate fIghting being held in a public or private building or even being present at the event. He stated that when a real problem is identifIed, such as meth, the City should step in. He thought if someone wants to do something in his or her own basement they should be allowed to do that. 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 5 Councilmember Trude stated that right now there is a licensing issue because ultimate fIghting usually goes together with liquor being served she questioned how far the City should go in regulating peoples' lives. Councilmember Knight stated that these kids are usually doing this on the streets and it is placed on "You Tube". Councilmember Jacobson stated that he would like to see a few words changed in this ordinance. Councilmember Orttel stated that he does not have an issue with prohibiting ultimate fIghting in a private building. Councilmember Trude stated that she has not heard of ultimate fIghting being a problem and would like to hear more information from the high school. She would like to see the revised ordinance again before it goes before the Planning and Zoning Commission. 0 The consensus of the Council was that staff should revise the Ultimate Fighting Ordinance and bring it back before the Council prior to the review of the Planning Commission. CHURCH IN SHOPPING CENTER ZONE - PLANNING City Planner Courtney Bednarz advised that a church is asking to go into the Hanson Commons Center, and the City currently limits churches to residential districts. He explained that the Council could amend the code to allow the church into one or more commercial districts. He reported that the key item would be parking. The church believes that if there was not sufficient space at the shopping center, they could come to an agreement with Oak View Middle School to use their lot across the street. Councilmember Trude questioned if the parking is calculated by square footage and if they would be short on parking just based on the formula Mr. Bednarz replied that the parking is based on the formula, but the parking for the shopping center is never more than half full. Councilmember Jacobson stated that the building was built for a shopping center and questioned ifit currently met fIre codes. Mr. Bednarz replied that they may have to modify the doors, but it would have to meet the fIre codes. 0 Councilmember Trude stated that the issue is that when a church has an assembly or gathering the parking is usually really intense during that session, but they would still need to follow codes. Councilmember Jacobson stated that a shopping center really is not designed for church use, and 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 6 questioned why they are not looking into other public facilities such as schools or community centers. Bill Reinhart, an associate pastor at United Methodist Church, stated that this would not be a relocation of their church. He explained that rather than growing bigger in Coon Rapids, the church has decided to grow more into Andover and is looking for a building where they can gather. He stated that the church is currently holding a service in the school, which is not visible to the public. He explained that they would like to be visible and serve the public in a community way. He advised that the primary service would be held on Sunday. He also advised that the only changes that would need to be made to the building would be the removal of a segment of wall and to install the remainder of the floor covering. Councilmember Trude questioned the square footage of the area Mr. Reinhart replied that it is the largest space in the center at 2,600 square feet. He explained that the cost to rent this space is higher, but also explained that the cost for a church to rent a school is also quite high. He stated that since a church does not exclusively serve youth they have the second 0 highest fee for rental of schools. Mr. Reinhart stated that the leased space in the center would cost twice as much as the rental of the school, but the church is also getting 24-hour access to the space for after school activities and other programs. They have had a positive response from other businesses in the center; both Chanticlear and the coffee shop have positive outlooks on the church leasing that space. Councilmember Trude brought up the subject of parking again and questioned whether he is worried about families fInding adequate parking for the services. Mr. Reinhart felt that there would be sufficient parking for the services. He added that there are three meeting spaces in the area they can use as classrooms and also handicap bathrooms. He explained that the church would never be at full capacity when the shopping center is busy. He explained that for Bible study there are groups of 30 people and peak occupancy for services would be from 8 a.m. to 12 p.m. He advised that the fIrst business to open would be the tanning salon at 10 a.m., which does not require a lot of parking. Councilmember Trude stated that Subway also receives a lot of business from local sporting events. She questioned if they are counting all the spots for the shopping center for the church. Mr. Reinhart agreed that there might be more congestion from 11 a.m. to 12 p.m. for Subway. Councilmember Orttel questioned if the management of the shopping center had given the church 0 permission to use the parking. He stated that there would be more than enough spots in the lot and the division between businesses is up to the management of the site. Mr. Reinhart explained that the church sees this space as a stepping stone and not a long-term space. He stated that the owner of the shopping center is willing to write a three year lease for the space, 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 7 and they hope to get enough momentum in the community in that three years to then move to the next level in Andover. He explained that it would be difficult to do that without a permanent visible location. Councilmember Knight questioned what type of sign the church would have. Mr. Reinhart replied that they would conform to whatever signage the shopping center uses. He explained that a church is a service, just like the other buildings in the shopping center. Councilmember Jacobson stated that he does not think that a church should permanently be in a shopping center, but has no problem with the temporary use. Councilmember Orttel stated that if a shopping center were designed for a church he would not have a problem with the permanent use either. He questioned if a church could be within 1,000 feet of a liquor store, and also if there will be a problem when the proposed restaurant is built in that area Mr. Bednarz advised that it would be within 1,000 feet. 0 Mr. Dickinson advised that it would not be a problem. Councilmember Trude believed that the Council should look at the code. Councilmember Jacobson advised that the Council could always do a waiver for the restaurant. Mr. Bednarz questioned if the Council wants to address the temporary nature in the use or via a conditional use permit. He advised that the Council might be better off addressing it in the conditional use permit because then it is just that one church that is specifIcally allowed. Councilmember Orttel advised that they should send this to the Planning Commission and have it reviewed as a conditional use permit. Councilmember Trude questioned if the church was successful would they be able to break the lease early. Mr. Reinhart advised that the lease is very easy to terminate. He explained again that they do not want to take their Coon Rapids parish over to Andover, they just want to start another parish in Andover. Councilmember Knight questioned when the church would like to start. 0 Mr. Reinhart advised that the space is open for lease right now and the concern that the church has is that it will be leased to another business. He explained that the church has been working this past year on developing relationships with the business owners in the shopping center and have made a foothold in the community. He stated that their intention is not to go into the shopping center and 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 8 just look after their own interests. Councilmember Trude advised that they might want to consider the other types of businesses that could come into the shopping center, as it may effect whether they would want to be there. Mr. Reinhart reported that with their occupancy the shopping center will be full and the leases for the other businesses are longer than that of the church. He advised that he lives a couple blocks away from the shopping center and has a vested interest in the community as well. The consensus of the Council was to send this issue to the Planning Commissionfor review at their next meeting. OPEN SPACE REFERENDUM/COMMISSION UPDATE - PLANNING Mr. Bednarz advised that the Commission helped to update the Comprehensive Plan, worked with the conservation district, and also created a method for evaluating property. 0 Councilmember Jacobson questioned why item nine, regarding public access, was so far down on the list as he thought that would be an item that the Commission would really consider. Mr. Bednarz reported that a lot of discussion took place over several meetings. He advised that the top priority was what was already on the land, and that public access may put that item over the top when ranking it. Councilmember Trude agreed that public access should have more points. Councilmember Orttel stated that the Commission might have based some of the ranking system on the ability to gain grant money. Councilmember Jacobson stated that if that is what the Commission is doing, there might be a problem. Councilmember Orttel explained that if the City does not get grant money, they would not be able to do anything. Councilmember Knight stated that there are more problematic things to consider because the process is so subjective for everyone. Councilmember Trude questioned item seven, regarding the natural watershed scoring system, as she 0 thought that land was already protected by the federal floodplain. Mr. Bednarz advised that he could talk with the Commission and see about possibly taking points from item seven and adding them to item nine. He advised that he would take this information back to the Commission as feedback. 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 9 Councilmember Trude questioned the position with grants at this point. Mr. Bednarz stated that the grant that the Commission is looking into is through the DNR and has a March 31 st deadline for applications. A preliminary application would need to be in by the end of January with a teaser of what the money will be used for. Councilmember Trude pointed out that this grant would be for 2009 and if the Commission misses this cycle they will be putting this off even further. She explained that it would then be at the four- year mark from when the voters fIrst approved the Open Space Referendum. Mr. Bednarz advised that this grant is competitive and there are people out there that already know what they want to use the money for, whereas we would be submitting a generic application. He explained that the Commission would like to apply the criteria citywide and see what land floats to the top. He explained that might put it out another year. Councilmember Jacobson stated that they should not just put something out there to get a grant. 0 Mr. Dickinson stated that if the dollars presented themselves the City could use them. He explained that the issue would be meeting the Open Space Referendum and fInding a buyer that would work with that. Mr. Bednarz stated that the Commission would like a joint meeting with the Council as soon as possible. Commissioner Holasek, from the Open Space Advisory Commission, advised that the scoring the Council is looking at is an average. He explained that item nine has a wide range of points. Mr. Dickinson stated that the Commission has put together a nice matrix for scoring. He stated that in looking at the grant, they will get prepared for it but advised that he would not get their hopes up that they will fInd that parcel. He believes they will fInd a seller; the issue will be pricing. He added that the Commission is a very technical group and may need some outside facilitation to move the discussion and make it broader. He stated that trying to put something together and fmalize it between now and March may be like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD NW/CROSSTOWN DRIVE NW DISCUSSION/06-48 - ENGINEERING 0 Mr. Berkowitz stated that the accident reports for that area were: 2007 had one accident, 2006 had one accident, 2005 had four or fIve accidents, 2004 had seven accidents, 2003 had seven or eight accidents, 2002 had eleven accidents, and 2001 had twelve accidents. He stated that the fact that it went from twelve accidents down to one really surprised him. Part of that might be a lot of near misses or accidents that were just not reported. The concern is the right turn lane and that they 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 10 cannot see cars going straight or they decide to go straight instead of turning. He also stated that left turns from Crosstown Drive are a concern. Councilmember Orttel stated that traffic backs up on Crosstown Drive to the store from people trying to turn left. Mr. Berkowitz advised that the County has said they can put together a drawing showing right in and right out, or put a median right down the middle of the road. He added that it would be B4 curb that a fIre truck would be able to jump, but the fIre chief does not like the idea of jumping a curb with a $300,000 truck. He believes they should do the median right down the middle. Councilmember Orttel suggested that they should outlaw left turns and make it local traffic only. He explained that way people would still be allowed to go north. Councilmember Jacobson stated that if signs could solve a problem it would be cheaper than anything else would. 0 Mr. Berkowitz stated that they began this a few months ago and the County now wants to apply for federal funds. He explained that they would most likely put a median on the road, as they are more concerned with preventing one death than how the people that live in that community will be affected. In his opinion there should be a study done to see how that is going to affect those people. Councilmember Orttel agreed that they should try to put the signs up fIrst. Mr. Berkowitz stated that the County is going to look for some kind ofletter to come from the City. He explained that maybe they could propose a designated right turn lane and no left turn signage. Councilmember Jacobson clarifIed that the Council is not saying they do not want the money to fix this intersection, they are just saying that they do not want to fIx it in the way the County would like. DISCUSS PRAIRIE KNOLL PARKIPARKING LOT EXPANSION (NORTH)/07-50 - ENGINEERING Mr. Berkowitz stated that last fall they had discussed the lot expansion. It will cost about $10,000 to complete this project. He explained that by connecting the two lots it would cost an additional $5,000 because there is a three foot grade change between the lots. Councilmember Trude explained that if the lots were connected, it would give people more room to look for parking spots. 0 Councilmember Orttel agreed that if the lots were not connected, people would see a spot in the other lot and would not be able to reach it. Mr. Berkowitz confIrmed that the Council would like to join the lots at the additional cost. He 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 11 advised that this issue would go to the Park Commission for review. UPDATE SUPER RINK DISCUSSIONS -ADMINISTRATION Mr. Dickinson reviewed that at the November 27th workshop meeting, the issue of the City of Andover reserving ice time at the Blaine Sports Center Super Rink was discussed. He believes that they got further in the agreement than was expected. They have an agreement that the City Attorney and the Hockey Association are all comfortable with. In order to get priority scheduling, the rink requires a deposit. Councilmember Jacobson confIrmed that the rinks in this area do not have enough time available. Mr. Howard, President of the Andover Youth Hockey Association, advised that this agreement would replace the time that they use at the Super Rink right now. Councilmember Jacobson pointed out that the deposit is $250,000 and questioned if there is an agreement with the Hockey Association stating that they are responsible for the ice time. 0 Mr. Dickinson replied that they do not foresee a problem with the Hockey Association, and does not see that organization going away. He explained that the City is responsible. He advised that there are a lot of calls for ice time and if the Hockey Association does not take the time, there are a lot of other organizations that would use the time. Councilmember Jacobson questioned if this will be looked at as favoritism towards hockey and not other sports. Councilmember Trude pointed out that the City built a million-dollar facility at Andover Station for other sports. Mr. Dickinson stated that the City pays the money up front. He explained that if the City decides to build their own rink they could get the money back at the end of the agreement, or they could chose to renew the agreement at the end of the two-year term. Councilmember Ortte1 advised that the Council should move forward on this. He advised that even if the Hockey Association does not use the ice time, there are other organizations that will use the time. He added that the most the City would be out in this agreement would be the interest on the deposit. The consensus of the Council was to move forward on the agreement with the Super Rink 0 DISCUSS COMMUNITY EDUCATION OPPORTUNITIES - ADMINISTRATION Mr. Dickinson stated that the reason this item is on the agenda is that is requires us to talk with community education and the school district to utilize the fIelds, so that they are not underutilized. 0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - January 22, 2008 Page 12 Councilmember Knight advised that the City could maintain the fIelds during the summer and the school could maintain them during the school year. Councilmember Orttel added that even if the City had to rent the fIelds it would still be worth it. Councilmember Trude stated that in community education staff works with staff. She thought it would be better for City staff to address that staff rather than the Council sit down with the school district. Mr. Dickinson stated the City has let the school district use their fIelds for free. The City plows Sunshine Park for early morning drop-off for elementary students, and has done other things to put us in a favorable position. The City is in a position to remind the school district of what we have done for them and request this in return. The consensus of the Council was to proceed on this issue and try to secure an agreement. 0 Motion by Councilmember Jacobson, Seconded by Councilmember Knight, to adjourn. Motion carried unanimously. The meeting adjourned at 8:15 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Amanda Staple, Recording Secretary 0