HomeMy WebLinkAboutWK January 22, 2008
C I T Y o F
0 NDOVE
1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER, MINNESOTA 55304 · (763) 755-5100
FAX (763) 755-8923 . WWW.CI.ANDOVER.MN.US
City Council Workshop
Tuesday, January 22, 2008
Conference Rooms A & B
1. Call to Order - 6:00 p.m.
2. Sheriffs Department City Code Suggestions - Planning
a. Loitering
b. Ultimate Fighting
3. Church in Shopping Center Zone - Planning
4. Open Space Referendum/Commission Update - Planning
0 5. Crosstown Boulevard NW/Crosstown Drive NW Discussion/06-48 - Engineering
6. Discuss Prairie Knoll Park/Parking Lot Expansion (North)/07.;.50 - Engineering
7. Update Super Rink Discussions - Administration
8. Discuss Community Education Opportunities - Administration
9. Other Business
10. Adjournment
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SPECIAL ANDOVER CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP - JANUARY 22,2008
MINUTES
The Special Council Workshop of the Andover City Council was called to order by Acting Mayor
Ken Orttel, January 22,2008,6:00 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW,
Andover, Minnesota
Councilmembers present: Don Jacobson, Mike Knight, Ken Orttel, Julie Trude
Councilmembers absent: Mike Gamache
Also present: City Administrator Jim Dickinson
Director of Public Works/City Engineer Dave Berkowitz
Director of Community Development Will Neumeister
Sheriff's Department Captain Tom Wells
President of Andover Youth Hockey Association Tony Howard
City Planner Courtney Bednarz
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SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT CITY CODE SUGGESTIONS - PLANNING
A. LOITERING
Captain Tom Wells stated that the loitering deals with the businesses across from the middle school
and also in the Downtown Center. The loitering ordinance is more specifIc than just trespassing, as
it would give the power to the business owner and they would not necessarily have to call the police
to resolve the situation. He explained that the business would have a sign they could display as well
that states "no loitering".
Councilmember Trude reported that some cities have dropped their ordinances against loitering as
they are hard to enforce.
Councilmember Knight stated that with loitering, the City would be making the rule and the kids
could not retaliate against the business owners themselves, as it would be a City issue.
Councilmember Trude stated that she could understand if the kids are asked to leave and still remain,
but explained that she would like to eliminate some of the more broad things in the ordinance. She
stated that if someone were standing outside of Tanners talking for ten minutes, they could be
0 arrested.
Councilmember Jacobson reported that the crime would be a petty misdemeanor.
Councilmember Trude questioned the method that would let some people pass and select others that
0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting
Minutes - January 22, 2008
Page 2
were loitering. She explained that fIve minutes is not a long period of time and reported that people
loiter after Council meetings outside of City Hall, or at the baseball fIeld after a game for that
amount of time.
Captain Wells stated that the business would have to have a no loitering sign posted on the building.
He explained that the option to have a sign would be given to the businesses themselves.
Councilmember Orttel clarifIed that it is not against the law right now for people to loiter.
Councilmember Knight explained that if there were six to eight kids standing at the door of a
business, it is going to intimidate people from entering the business.
Councilmember Trude stated that if there were a few ladies standing outside of Target talking, they
would most likely not receive tickets.
City Administrator Dickinson stated that if the business chose not to post a sign there would be
nothing that the officers could do.
0 Councilmember Trude stated that she has seen ten kids standing outside of Target, but explained that
those kids probably have money in their pockets that they are going to spend on the newest
electronics inside the store.
Captain Wells explained that there are also groups of kids that sit inside of McDonald ' s for an hour
and do not purchase anything.
Councilmember Trude believes the businesses should just tell the kids to leave, and thought that this
ordinance would just give the officers a difficult job.
Councilmember Jacobson questioned how big an issue this had become in Anoka.
Captain Wells explained that it is a different story in Anoka, as cruising and loitering were a big
issue there before their ordinance.
City Administrator Dickinson explained that the three places where loitering has become an issue
are: Andover Station near the bowling alley, the school building, and the theater; McDonald's on
Bunker and Round Lake Boulevards; and between the middle school and the community center.
Councilmember Trude believes that this issue would be expensive to defend in court because it is too
broad. She stated that the Council could adopt a few sentences of the loitering ordinance that back
0 up the issue of trespassing. She stated that whenever you say that kids are a problem and you do not
look at any other age groups, you are looking at a lawsuit.
Councilmember Jacobson questioned if there were other loitering ordinances other than the ones that
the Council had in front of them.
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Page 3
Councilmember Trude explained that if people are asked to leave and they do not, they could then be
charged with a crime because that backs up the idea that the owner needs help.
Councilmember Jacobson stated that if the Council wants to do something with a loitering ordinance,
he believes that they should look at other cities that are not so strict.
Councilmember Orttel explained that compared to other cities, this ordinance is not very strict. He
stated that the previous night there were a group of kids outside of his house that he did not chase
away. He reported that the next day there was graffiti near the area where the kids had been. He
does not believe the age of the kids' matters. He explained that if 15 year olds are causing problems,
the City needs to take care of the issue regardless of age.
Captain Wells explained that whenever there is a group of young people gathered together for no
reason there is the opportunity for bad activities to take place, such as people selling them drugs. He
stated that the City is trying to keep them moving and get those kids into activities so that they have
something positive to do. He added that the high school is dealing with some of their issues
0 intemally. He explained that the kids that are loitering are not involved in activities. They are just
loitering and coming up with bad activities to participate in.
Councilmember Trude stated that in her opinion there needs to be more gravity to the situation other
than someone being in one place for fIve minutes.
Captain Wells explained that with any execution of a law there is a level of discretion on the part of
the officer.
City Administrator Dickinson stated that the intent was to put the topic in front of the Council and
get things started on the issue ofloitering. He explained that the loitering ordinance that was brought
forth as being good and effective was the ordinance from Anoka He advised staff to investigate how
other cities word their ordinances on loitering.
Councilmember Trude explained that when kids are fIlling out college applications and have to list
any crimes they have been convicted of, they might have to list loitering because they stood in front
of a business for fIve minutes.
Councilmember Knight questioned if officers just move those kids along and not ticket them.
Captain Wells explained that the ordinance would just be a helpful tool. He explained that the
reason the Anoka ordinance was brought forward is that it is effective and because a lot of kids from
0 Andover go into Anoka who are familiar with the ordinance. He explained that if kids were
repeatedly caught for loitering, they would be ticketed.
Councilmember Trude questioned whether there is a lot of defiance from kids when talking to the
officers.
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Captain Wells stated that the majority of kids are going to leave if they are told to leave.
Councilmember Knight stated that kids standing in front of a business will deter some people from
entering, therefore the loitering will hurt that business.
Councilmember Trude questioned if people lined up in front of a business for days to purchase a new
electronic item would be ticketed, since the business is closed and they will be there for more than
fIve minutes.
Captain Wells advised that those people would have a purpose for standing in front of the building.
Councilmember Orttel advised that the police do a lot of warning people instead of giving out
tickets.
Captain Wells pointed out the barking dog ordinance. He explained that not every time that a dog
barks do the police get a call and issue a ticket.
0 Councilmember Orttel suggested that stafflook at the surrounding cities' ordinances for loitering and
get some clarifIcation.
The consensus of the Council was for staff to look at the loitering ordinances of surrounding cities to
find a wording and definition that better suits the City of Andover.
B. ULTIMATE FIGHTING
Captain Tom Wells explained that this request was generated from the schools because of situations
that they have identifIed as problems, and they thought that this ordinance would be helpful in
dealing with the problem. He stated that students mostly have been gathering together as a group
and watching and/or participating in contest-style fIghting. He reported that students are mostly from
the high school, although some of the students are from the middle school. The information they
gathered came from the school resource office at Andover High School. Captain Wells stated that
the students gather at the area under the railroad bridge overpass for the fIghts and officers have
found videos of the fIghting on "You Tube". He explained that other cities have dealt with the issue
with an ordinance and found it helpful as a preventative action. He stated that as an assault it is easy
to deal with the fIghters, but explained that the ordinance would address the spectators as well. It
would be more of a proactive action for Andover, as it is not a huge problem at this point.
City Administrator Dickinson stated that he does not hear any opposition on the ultimate fIghting
concept. He questioned if any changes need to be made to the ordinance.
0 Councilmember Jacobson questioned the concept of the ultimate fIghting, as it pertained to ultimate
fIghting being held in a public or private building or even being present at the event. He stated that
when a real problem is identifIed, such as meth, the City should step in. He thought if someone wants
to do something in his or her own basement they should be allowed to do that.
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Minutes - January 22, 2008
Page 5
Councilmember Trude stated that right now there is a licensing issue because ultimate fIghting
usually goes together with liquor being served she questioned how far the City should go in
regulating peoples' lives.
Councilmember Knight stated that these kids are usually doing this on the streets and it is placed on
"You Tube".
Councilmember Jacobson stated that he would like to see a few words changed in this ordinance.
Councilmember Orttel stated that he does not have an issue with prohibiting ultimate fIghting in a
private building.
Councilmember Trude stated that she has not heard of ultimate fIghting being a problem and would
like to hear more information from the high school. She would like to see the revised ordinance
again before it goes before the Planning and Zoning Commission.
0 The consensus of the Council was that staff should revise the Ultimate Fighting Ordinance and bring
it back before the Council prior to the review of the Planning Commission.
CHURCH IN SHOPPING CENTER ZONE - PLANNING
City Planner Courtney Bednarz advised that a church is asking to go into the Hanson Commons
Center, and the City currently limits churches to residential districts. He explained that the Council
could amend the code to allow the church into one or more commercial districts. He reported that
the key item would be parking. The church believes that if there was not sufficient space at the
shopping center, they could come to an agreement with Oak View Middle School to use their lot
across the street.
Councilmember Trude questioned if the parking is calculated by square footage and if they would be
short on parking just based on the formula
Mr. Bednarz replied that the parking is based on the formula, but the parking for the shopping center
is never more than half full.
Councilmember Jacobson stated that the building was built for a shopping center and questioned ifit
currently met fIre codes.
Mr. Bednarz replied that they may have to modify the doors, but it would have to meet the fIre codes.
0 Councilmember Trude stated that the issue is that when a church has an assembly or gathering the
parking is usually really intense during that session, but they would still need to follow codes.
Councilmember Jacobson stated that a shopping center really is not designed for church use, and
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Page 6
questioned why they are not looking into other public facilities such as schools or community
centers.
Bill Reinhart, an associate pastor at United Methodist Church, stated that this would not be a
relocation of their church. He explained that rather than growing bigger in Coon Rapids, the church
has decided to grow more into Andover and is looking for a building where they can gather. He
stated that the church is currently holding a service in the school, which is not visible to the public.
He explained that they would like to be visible and serve the public in a community way. He advised
that the primary service would be held on Sunday. He also advised that the only changes that would
need to be made to the building would be the removal of a segment of wall and to install the
remainder of the floor covering.
Councilmember Trude questioned the square footage of the area
Mr. Reinhart replied that it is the largest space in the center at 2,600 square feet. He explained that
the cost to rent this space is higher, but also explained that the cost for a church to rent a school is
also quite high. He stated that since a church does not exclusively serve youth they have the second
0 highest fee for rental of schools. Mr. Reinhart stated that the leased space in the center would cost
twice as much as the rental of the school, but the church is also getting 24-hour access to the space
for after school activities and other programs. They have had a positive response from other
businesses in the center; both Chanticlear and the coffee shop have positive outlooks on the church
leasing that space.
Councilmember Trude brought up the subject of parking again and questioned whether he is worried
about families fInding adequate parking for the services.
Mr. Reinhart felt that there would be sufficient parking for the services. He added that there are
three meeting spaces in the area they can use as classrooms and also handicap bathrooms. He
explained that the church would never be at full capacity when the shopping center is busy. He
explained that for Bible study there are groups of 30 people and peak occupancy for services would
be from 8 a.m. to 12 p.m. He advised that the fIrst business to open would be the tanning salon at 10
a.m., which does not require a lot of parking.
Councilmember Trude stated that Subway also receives a lot of business from local sporting events.
She questioned if they are counting all the spots for the shopping center for the church.
Mr. Reinhart agreed that there might be more congestion from 11 a.m. to 12 p.m. for Subway.
Councilmember Orttel questioned if the management of the shopping center had given the church
0 permission to use the parking. He stated that there would be more than enough spots in the lot and
the division between businesses is up to the management of the site.
Mr. Reinhart explained that the church sees this space as a stepping stone and not a long-term space.
He stated that the owner of the shopping center is willing to write a three year lease for the space,
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Page 7
and they hope to get enough momentum in the community in that three years to then move to the
next level in Andover. He explained that it would be difficult to do that without a permanent visible
location.
Councilmember Knight questioned what type of sign the church would have.
Mr. Reinhart replied that they would conform to whatever signage the shopping center uses. He
explained that a church is a service, just like the other buildings in the shopping center.
Councilmember Jacobson stated that he does not think that a church should permanently be in a
shopping center, but has no problem with the temporary use.
Councilmember Orttel stated that if a shopping center were designed for a church he would not have
a problem with the permanent use either. He questioned if a church could be within 1,000 feet of a
liquor store, and also if there will be a problem when the proposed restaurant is built in that area
Mr. Bednarz advised that it would be within 1,000 feet.
0 Mr. Dickinson advised that it would not be a problem.
Councilmember Trude believed that the Council should look at the code.
Councilmember Jacobson advised that the Council could always do a waiver for the restaurant.
Mr. Bednarz questioned if the Council wants to address the temporary nature in the use or via a
conditional use permit. He advised that the Council might be better off addressing it in the
conditional use permit because then it is just that one church that is specifIcally allowed.
Councilmember Orttel advised that they should send this to the Planning Commission and have it
reviewed as a conditional use permit.
Councilmember Trude questioned if the church was successful would they be able to break the lease
early.
Mr. Reinhart advised that the lease is very easy to terminate. He explained again that they do not
want to take their Coon Rapids parish over to Andover, they just want to start another parish in
Andover.
Councilmember Knight questioned when the church would like to start.
0 Mr. Reinhart advised that the space is open for lease right now and the concern that the church has is
that it will be leased to another business. He explained that the church has been working this past
year on developing relationships with the business owners in the shopping center and have made a
foothold in the community. He stated that their intention is not to go into the shopping center and
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Page 8
just look after their own interests.
Councilmember Trude advised that they might want to consider the other types of businesses that
could come into the shopping center, as it may effect whether they would want to be there.
Mr. Reinhart reported that with their occupancy the shopping center will be full and the leases for the
other businesses are longer than that of the church. He advised that he lives a couple blocks away
from the shopping center and has a vested interest in the community as well.
The consensus of the Council was to send this issue to the Planning Commissionfor review at their
next meeting.
OPEN SPACE REFERENDUM/COMMISSION UPDATE - PLANNING
Mr. Bednarz advised that the Commission helped to update the Comprehensive Plan, worked with
the conservation district, and also created a method for evaluating property.
0 Councilmember Jacobson questioned why item nine, regarding public access, was so far down on the
list as he thought that would be an item that the Commission would really consider.
Mr. Bednarz reported that a lot of discussion took place over several meetings. He advised that the
top priority was what was already on the land, and that public access may put that item over the top
when ranking it.
Councilmember Trude agreed that public access should have more points.
Councilmember Orttel stated that the Commission might have based some of the ranking system on
the ability to gain grant money.
Councilmember Jacobson stated that if that is what the Commission is doing, there might be a
problem.
Councilmember Orttel explained that if the City does not get grant money, they would not be able to
do anything.
Councilmember Knight stated that there are more problematic things to consider because the process
is so subjective for everyone.
Councilmember Trude questioned item seven, regarding the natural watershed scoring system, as she
0 thought that land was already protected by the federal floodplain.
Mr. Bednarz advised that he could talk with the Commission and see about possibly taking points
from item seven and adding them to item nine. He advised that he would take this information back
to the Commission as feedback.
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Page 9
Councilmember Trude questioned the position with grants at this point.
Mr. Bednarz stated that the grant that the Commission is looking into is through the DNR and has a
March 31 st deadline for applications. A preliminary application would need to be in by the end of
January with a teaser of what the money will be used for.
Councilmember Trude pointed out that this grant would be for 2009 and if the Commission misses
this cycle they will be putting this off even further. She explained that it would then be at the four-
year mark from when the voters fIrst approved the Open Space Referendum.
Mr. Bednarz advised that this grant is competitive and there are people out there that already know
what they want to use the money for, whereas we would be submitting a generic application. He
explained that the Commission would like to apply the criteria citywide and see what land floats to
the top. He explained that might put it out another year.
Councilmember Jacobson stated that they should not just put something out there to get a grant.
0 Mr. Dickinson stated that if the dollars presented themselves the City could use them. He explained
that the issue would be meeting the Open Space Referendum and fInding a buyer that would work
with that.
Mr. Bednarz stated that the Commission would like a joint meeting with the Council as soon as
possible.
Commissioner Holasek, from the Open Space Advisory Commission, advised that the scoring the
Council is looking at is an average. He explained that item nine has a wide range of points.
Mr. Dickinson stated that the Commission has put together a nice matrix for scoring. He stated that
in looking at the grant, they will get prepared for it but advised that he would not get their hopes up
that they will fInd that parcel. He believes they will fInd a seller; the issue will be pricing. He added
that the Commission is a very technical group and may need some outside facilitation to move the
discussion and make it broader. He stated that trying to put something together and fmalize it
between now and March may be like pulling a rabbit out of a hat.
CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD NW/CROSSTOWN DRIVE NW DISCUSSION/06-48 -
ENGINEERING
0 Mr. Berkowitz stated that the accident reports for that area were: 2007 had one accident, 2006 had
one accident, 2005 had four or fIve accidents, 2004 had seven accidents, 2003 had seven or eight
accidents, 2002 had eleven accidents, and 2001 had twelve accidents. He stated that the fact that it
went from twelve accidents down to one really surprised him. Part of that might be a lot of near
misses or accidents that were just not reported. The concern is the right turn lane and that they
0 Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting
Minutes - January 22, 2008
Page 10
cannot see cars going straight or they decide to go straight instead of turning. He also stated that left
turns from Crosstown Drive are a concern.
Councilmember Orttel stated that traffic backs up on Crosstown Drive to the store from people trying
to turn left.
Mr. Berkowitz advised that the County has said they can put together a drawing showing right in and
right out, or put a median right down the middle of the road. He added that it would be B4 curb that
a fIre truck would be able to jump, but the fIre chief does not like the idea of jumping a curb with a
$300,000 truck. He believes they should do the median right down the middle.
Councilmember Orttel suggested that they should outlaw left turns and make it local traffic only. He
explained that way people would still be allowed to go north.
Councilmember Jacobson stated that if signs could solve a problem it would be cheaper than
anything else would.
0 Mr. Berkowitz stated that they began this a few months ago and the County now wants to apply for
federal funds. He explained that they would most likely put a median on the road, as they are more
concerned with preventing one death than how the people that live in that community will be
affected. In his opinion there should be a study done to see how that is going to affect those people.
Councilmember Orttel agreed that they should try to put the signs up fIrst.
Mr. Berkowitz stated that the County is going to look for some kind ofletter to come from the City.
He explained that maybe they could propose a designated right turn lane and no left turn signage.
Councilmember Jacobson clarifIed that the Council is not saying they do not want the money to fix
this intersection, they are just saying that they do not want to fIx it in the way the County would like.
DISCUSS PRAIRIE KNOLL PARKIPARKING LOT EXPANSION (NORTH)/07-50 -
ENGINEERING
Mr. Berkowitz stated that last fall they had discussed the lot expansion. It will cost about $10,000 to
complete this project. He explained that by connecting the two lots it would cost an additional
$5,000 because there is a three foot grade change between the lots.
Councilmember Trude explained that if the lots were connected, it would give people more room to
look for parking spots.
0 Councilmember Orttel agreed that if the lots were not connected, people would see a spot in the
other lot and would not be able to reach it.
Mr. Berkowitz confIrmed that the Council would like to join the lots at the additional cost. He
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Minutes - January 22, 2008
Page 11
advised that this issue would go to the Park Commission for review.
UPDATE SUPER RINK DISCUSSIONS -ADMINISTRATION
Mr. Dickinson reviewed that at the November 27th workshop meeting, the issue of the City of
Andover reserving ice time at the Blaine Sports Center Super Rink was discussed. He believes that
they got further in the agreement than was expected. They have an agreement that the City Attorney
and the Hockey Association are all comfortable with. In order to get priority scheduling, the rink
requires a deposit.
Councilmember Jacobson confIrmed that the rinks in this area do not have enough time available.
Mr. Howard, President of the Andover Youth Hockey Association, advised that this agreement
would replace the time that they use at the Super Rink right now.
Councilmember Jacobson pointed out that the deposit is $250,000 and questioned if there is an
agreement with the Hockey Association stating that they are responsible for the ice time.
0 Mr. Dickinson replied that they do not foresee a problem with the Hockey Association, and does not
see that organization going away. He explained that the City is responsible. He advised that there
are a lot of calls for ice time and if the Hockey Association does not take the time, there are a lot of
other organizations that would use the time.
Councilmember Jacobson questioned if this will be looked at as favoritism towards hockey and not
other sports.
Councilmember Trude pointed out that the City built a million-dollar facility at Andover Station for
other sports.
Mr. Dickinson stated that the City pays the money up front. He explained that if the City decides to
build their own rink they could get the money back at the end of the agreement, or they could chose
to renew the agreement at the end of the two-year term.
Councilmember Ortte1 advised that the Council should move forward on this. He advised that even
if the Hockey Association does not use the ice time, there are other organizations that will use the
time. He added that the most the City would be out in this agreement would be the interest on the
deposit.
The consensus of the Council was to move forward on the agreement with the Super Rink
0 DISCUSS COMMUNITY EDUCATION OPPORTUNITIES - ADMINISTRATION
Mr. Dickinson stated that the reason this item is on the agenda is that is requires us to talk with
community education and the school district to utilize the fIelds, so that they are not underutilized.
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Minutes - January 22, 2008
Page 12
Councilmember Knight advised that the City could maintain the fIelds during the summer and the
school could maintain them during the school year.
Councilmember Orttel added that even if the City had to rent the fIelds it would still be worth it.
Councilmember Trude stated that in community education staff works with staff. She thought it
would be better for City staff to address that staff rather than the Council sit down with the school
district.
Mr. Dickinson stated the City has let the school district use their fIelds for free. The City plows
Sunshine Park for early morning drop-off for elementary students, and has done other things to put
us in a favorable position. The City is in a position to remind the school district of what we have
done for them and request this in return.
The consensus of the Council was to proceed on this issue and try to secure an agreement.
0 Motion by Councilmember Jacobson, Seconded by Councilmember Knight, to adjourn. Motion
carried unanimously. The meeting adjourned at 8:15 p.m.
Respectfully submitted,
Amanda Staple, Recording Secretary
0