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HomeMy WebLinkAboutNovember 22, 1994 ~-) 7:00 ~~m~ ", ''\ . , ........./ " ' ..... . , .' _." ~ ';" : :-..,4 ~, _. :~/-,;~.:~ ;./.' .: .'-.'. ;". ."..:. " ',' '. . ~ . . -;- _..~. ..': , . '. u u t CITY of ANDOVER 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER, MINNESOTA 55304 . (612) 755~5100 . .:'-.: .... . ANDOVER PLANNING & ZONING COKMISSION MEETING AGENDA November 22, 1994 1. 2. Call to Order Approval of Minutes: November 8,"1994. 3. Public Bearing: Amend Ordfnance: No. .8, . . Sections 8.01, 8~08 &8.24 - Rel~ting to . 'Exterior Storage, parking of Vehicles and Junk Vehicles. '. 4. 5. Discussion -:TherapueticMassage Ordinance. Discussion Sketch Plan - Dave Harris Property Section 24. 6. Other Business 7. Adjournment , '.: 'c. ". . . . . ." ". ..":" ~ .- ~ . - " . ", . ":",:;1". .' '. " .' ., / / (J ~J~~~ Ic;l.JI~{cvi ' .~ ".,...';0''''....; /~' CITY of ANDOVER 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N,W. . ANDOVER, MINNESOTA 55304 . (612) 755-5100 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING - NOVEMBER 22, 1994 MINUTES The Regular Bi-Monthly Meeting of the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission was called to order by Chairperson Jay Squires on November 22, 1994, 7:05 p.m. at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NWr Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners present: Maynard Apel, Bonnie Dehn, Bev Jovanovich, Jerry Putnam Becky Pease, Randy Peek Code Enforcement Officer, Jeff Johnson City Planning Director, David Carlberg Others Commissioners absent: Also present: APPROVAL OF MINUTES November 8, 1994: Correct as written. \ '-..J MOTION by Dehn, Seconded by Jovanovich, to approve the Minutes as written. Motion carried on as-Yes, 2-Absent (Pease, Peek) vote. DISCUSSION: SKETCH PLAN - DAVE HARRIS PROPERTY, SECTION 24 Mr. Carlberg reviewed the general comments of the Andover Review Committee on the sketch plan to develop about 75 acres into 16 R-1 single family rural lots off of University Avenue. As proposed, a variance would be needed from Ordinance 10, Section 9.02C for Lot 16 which fronts on University Avenue, a collector street. The layout works around the considerable amount of wetlands on the site, so the lots vary in size from 2.5 to 8 acres. The Park and Recreation Commission has recommended accepting cash in lieu of land for park dedication. Commissioner Dehn had some concern with the proposed temporary cul-de- sacs to the north and to the south in terms of hazards for emergency vehicles because of the length of the roads, especially in the event those cul-de-sacs are never extended. Mr. Carlberg explained cul-de- sacs are created at the ends of the streets to allow vehicles to turn around. They are temporary cul-de-sacs, as the intent is the roads will be extended in the future through the platting of adjoining property. The minimum 500-foot requirement for cul-de-sacs refers to permanent, not temporary ones. Commissioner Apel noted there are many temporary cul-de-sacs in the City and there have been no significant problems with them. , '\ Chairperson Squires asked if the developer owns any other contiguous property. Mr. Carlberg responded that this is the only property Mr. Harris owns. The consensus of the Commission was the layout of the property seems appropriate. Mr. Carlberg stated this will be forwarded to the December 6, 1994, regular Council meeting. "-~ '. / . , ,_J Regular Andover Planning and zoning Commission Meeting Minutes -November 22, 1994 Page 2 / PUBLIC HEARING: AMEND ORDINANCE NO.8, SECTIONS 8.01, 8.08 AND 8.24 - RELATING TO EXTERIOR STORAGE, PARKING OF VEHICLES AND JUNK VEHICLES 7:13 P.M. Mr. Johnson updated the Commission on the City Council's support to adopt a code enforcement program which is specifically pro- active involving systematic inspections throughout the City. He stated the overall effectiveness of this inspection program over the past six months has resulted in an overall degree of citizen satisfaction. The proposed amendments and junk ordinance has resulted from the Staff's inabili ty to satisfy some res idents ' complaints, from court cases resulting from inadequate ordinances, and because the community is becoming more urban and the citizens want to see their investments protected. .I Commissioner Apel took issue with Mr. Johnson's position, feeling Mr. Johnson took it upon his own initiative to push for the amendments and new ordinance. He did not think the citizens of Andover want these proposed changes. Mr. Johnson stated what is being proposed has been brought to the City Staff by residents. Mr. Carlberg thought most who favor the changes would not attend the hearing. The majority who corne to the hearings are those who oppose the changes. Also, these changes are being proposed because a minority of the people aren't taking care of their property. Commissioner Apel stated people have been calling him in opposition of the changes, and it was still his contention that the only reason it is before the Commission is because Staff has decided these changes should be implemented. Mr. Johnson went on to review the proposed amendments to exterior storage, parking and junk vehicles. He noted on August 23, 1994, the Commission agreed the amendments should be strictly enforced in the urban area as opposed to the rural, so the proposed amendment uses the language of R-3 and R-4 zones as urban and R-1 and R-2 as rural. Another method of distinguishing the areas may be to use the MUSA area, though there are R-3 zones outside of the MUSA. Mr. Carlberg then reviewed the minimum lot size requirements for each of the zones. Commissioner Dehn asked if there were any calls in favor of this type of enforcement or ordinance change. Mr. Johnson stated there were none for exterior storage, but he did receive 10 or 15 calls in favor of an ordinance change. The main concern of residents is the junk vehicles and the parking of vehicles on property. Commissioner Dehn stated she had 10 to 15 calls in opposition herself. Commissioner Apel stated he had more calls than that opposing it with only one stating the City was doing a good job. Mayor Jack McKelvey asked why the presentation did not include the change which would allow the zoning Administrator, Building Official, Code Enforcement Officer or their duly authorized agents to enter onto all public and private property to enforce the ordinance. Commissioner Apel felt that is very intrusive wording. This is the type of ordinance that creates ill-will toward the City Staff for no significant benefit. Mr. Carlberg stated that should be addressed and noted the City Attorney does have a copy of the proposed changes. Commissioner Dehn felt this may be infringing on constitutional rights, as she did not know of any / ... ) Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 3 (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) other agency that had that authority without permission or a warrant. Chairperson Squires noted it will be reviewed by the City Attorney; but as a practical issue, the question is whether it is a good idea for the City to authorize one of its representatives to wonder through the City and go onto private property just merely to look around. At this point, for the benefit of those present, Chairperson Squires read the proposed addition to the ordinance concerning warning notices, entry on public and private places, the report of the Code Enforcement Officer, the custody of abandoned items, the right to reclaim property, penalties and cost reimbursement. commissioner Dehn asked why the proposal is to change the storage of materials and equipment to within a building rather than allow it to be fully screened from adjoining properties. Mr. Johnson stated the current draft only allows storage within a building. He understood the people in the rural area wanting the right to screen, and that is why a differentiation was made between the urban and rural zones. The screening provision was taken out of the higher density areas, as it was felt the items should be stored in a garage. Mr. Carlberg stated the question becomes what is screening. Is it trees, landscaping, fencing? MOTION by Apel, Seconded by Dehn, to open the public hearing. Motion carried on a 5-Yes, 2-Absent (Pease, Peek) vote. 7:45 p.m. Residents wishing to address the Commission had signed cards as they entered the chambers. Chairperson Squires asked each resident to speak in the order of the cards, and asked that they limit their comments to five minutes. Charlie Veiman, 13646 Crooked Lake Boulevard - thanked the residents present for their show of strength. He expressed frustration with the policy the City is trying to enforce upon the residents. (applause) He then deferred his time to Ken Orttel, who has served on the Planning Commission and served for many years as Councilmember and Mayor. -' Ken Orttel, 2772 Bunker Lake Boulevard - felt it is contradictory for Staff to talk about eliminating selective enforcement of the ordinance yet they present the amendments with differences between the urban and rural zones. There are some 2.5 acre or larger parcels in the MUSA area, and it is offensive to have those larger parcels treated like 80- foot lots. He noted when the City Council filled the position of Code Enforcement Officer, there was a back up of complaints. But wi thin weeks, the residents are told more ordinances are needed to enforce more things. The Enforcement Officer is out with binoculars spying on people, looking for violations. For many years, City officials kept in mind the diversity of houses and neighborhoods and the things people moved to the City for. That is why they never came up with an ordinance that was real workable for the City. He didn't know how many complaints the Staff receives over a year; but in all the years he was a City official, he never heard any complaints about storage or automobiles for sale. Mr. Orttel asked if there was a definition for "materials" as proposed in Section 8.01(A). He thought it could include garbage cans, \ '- / '\ ,-) Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 4 .I (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) antique items in the yard. He thought he would be in violation because of an old ladder he leaves outdoors, which no one can see unless they are spying on him. Mr. Carlberg noted the provision of materials and equipment is not changing. Mr. Orttel - thought the enforcement could become ridiculous if someone applies it to such materials as propane tanks, parking of cars at the churches and schools because according to the ordinance there cannot be more than six cars in front of any building in an R-3 and R-4. (applause) Mr. Carlberg stated parking lots and the parking of the cars are covered under the Special Use Permits for those uses. / Mr. Orttel - also asked what is a boulevard. The county does not yet have the right of way in front of his house; it is an easement. It is his property. This ordinance is saying he cannot use his property, and he felt that should be explained. In addition, many people have garages behind their houses. He assumes they cannot park there because it is parking in the back yard. For years the City has tried very hard to keep government as non-offensive to people as possible. He cautioned the City to tread very lightly when dealing with personal property rights and was shocked by the provision of search and seizure, as the 14th Amendment protects individual property rights unless there is a warrant. He also felt it is terrible that whatever costs Staff incurred in developing the ordinance was done without the benefit of public input. He is angered when he sees something like this being proposed for the City of Andover, as this forces people to come out to defend their property, which is shameful. (applause) Again, he did not feel there should be selective enforcement of the ordinances, as the ordinances should be in effect for everyone and enforced evenly. It is ridiculous to go after certain properties of the City depending on their zoning. / Ron Roden, 15481 Kiowa Street NW - stated since they can't have anything on their property, he should get rid of the house and kids too. He stated he does have a citation on his car, which he is very upset about. He talked with Mr. Johnson, whom he thought has an attitude problem. He was told about 500 cars were given citations; but he noted the City should be given a citation for having over 100 people in the Commission Chambers. This is what it comes down to. He sees this as going overboard and being a waste of time having an Enforcement Officer. It is time government shrinks. This is non-value added, not doing anyone any good. with regard to property values, he alleged the values will decrease because of the shabby condition of the house, which was not addressed by Staff, not because of the materials in the yard. He stated he would not give up his freedom for a bunch of laws, regulations and ordinances. People's freedom is disappearing, and he hoped more and more would voice opposition to these kinds of regulations. (applause) He asked how many citizens complained in the last six months. Mr. Johnson stated he gets about two to three complaints a day, with the majority about junk cars and vehicles on the property. " :,-) Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 5 / (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) Mr. Roden fel t if the property is a public health, safety, or environment hazard, that must be addressed. However, his car is none of those. It is personal; and it is art work! When taking people to court, it is costly and time wasted and is not buying the City anything. He felt more people need to be involved in writing the ordinances with an open mind and with people's rights considered, not putting garbage cans in buildings. The trespassing situation is absolutely unacceptable. Trespassing is not allowed for anyone else for any other reason, and he did not believe the City has that right. As far as taking the property and giving notice in the paper for two weeks, the provision does not even call for notification of the property owner, which he felt is ludicrous. He saw a bureaucracy and employment protection being built, but he personally would fire these Staff members. His vehicle is not junk; it is a collector's item and he does have a license on it now. He asked Mr. Johnson if he lives in a house and how he feels about the restrictive covenance on his property. Mr. Johnson responded he felt it protects the property values and keeps a neat and clean neighborhood. Mr. Roden - stated he owns a total of eight acres and likes the wilderness. He has aluminum cans to recycle, steel, iron, etc., picked up off the streets of Andover which he recycles; plus he has wood which is not a health or safety hazard. Those items are not very well seen, alleging when Mr. Johnson saw his car, he had to look very hard to see it. If the City would start fixing the roads like it is supposed to, then maybe it would have a right to do some other things. He felt the entire ordinance needs to be reviewed and a better process to resolve the complaints. (applause) Rick Lund, 17918 Eidelweiss - was sent a letter about some items stored on his lot. He doesn't have a problem if his neighbors are complaining; but he does have a problem when he gets letters from the City. He's lived there for three years. It was a repo house, a real dump; and he has been working hard to clean it up. Now he's gotten a letter from the City telling him he's not doing a good job. He's not happy with that. He also didn't think the City should be allowed to come onto his property unless they want to purchase it; then he'll move some place else. Otherwise, don't come onto his property. Mvron Bauer, 17015 Quav Street - received a letter from the City several years ago that his grass was too long and that he had weeds in his yard. None of the neighbors called. He talked to the person from the City who came to check on it. He has 2 1/2 acres, and he is not required to cut all of it; but he does. But that spring his lawn mower broke; and by time he had it repaired, the grass was quite long. The City hadn't cut the parks nor the streets themselves. Now he gets a letter about a van parked in his driveway on blacktop. It was out of his garage because he was donating things to the Cancer Society auction. It does run, though it doesn't have current plates. He has six vehicles; and he was threatened he would be taken to court if he didn't get that van in by the 18th of October. And if he brought it back out again, he'd be a repeat offender. Mr. Bauer stated if this kind of enforcement is needed , ) ) '--J Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 6 (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) in Andover, he'll move out. His taxes are high enough now, and this is a waste of time and money. If his neighbors have a problem with him or vice versa, he believed he knew them well enough to be able to resolve the situation. He didn't think the City should have to waste their time having to coming out to object to all these ordinance changes, noting it was only several months ago they had to address a proposed change on motor homes because of two complaints. If an ordinance change is desired, put it as a vote before the people of Andover because they are the ones who pay the taxes. The taxes are going to go even higher if these kinds of things continue to be enacted. That's what happened in Minneapolis, and that is why he moved out. (applause) Lee Brvant, 2828 135th Lane NW - presented a printed list of items which he thought would be illegal under the proposed ordinance changes, though he didn't realize this was not the complete ordinance. There are a lot of things in his yard that would become illegal, such as the flagpole, the dog kennel, having more than six cars in the yard during a family reunion or card club gathering. He thinks there is a constitutionality problem with the wording of the ordinance, plus it is vague. If someone has a complaint, it must be dealt with; but he can't believe someone can just walk into a person's yard to check it out. How badly does a car have to be damaged before it is considered "wrecked"? If the door is dented? Or does it have to be completely caved in? Who is going to decide? If a person decides to repair his car and jacks it up, its inoperative technically. It's illegal. If two neighbors do not get along and they are complaining about minor things, the City will be constantly out there dealing with it because the ordinance is so vague. He asked how many Code Enforcement Officers will the City have to hire to canvass all 22,000 residents' houses and canvass their property. Can one person handle that in a year? None is probably the best. He understands the purpose and supports the attempt to clean up some lots that are problems, but the methods are wrong. If these were approved by the City Attorney, as he thought he heard someone say tonight, then he felt someone should consider a different attorney. (applause) Dennis Harper, 17845 Round Lake Boulevard - stated all of his points were covered by others. Rosella Sonstebv, 4151 141st Avenue NW - asked if Mr. Carlberg and Mr. Johnson live in Andover. They declined to answer. Ms. Sonstebv - stated neither of them live in Andover, suggesting they go to their own City to pull some ... like this. (applause) She then read a statement that it was the Constitution and Bill of Rights that made this country great; and it is hard to understand some elected and appointed officials are selling the government to a one-world government, one-world police force, one-world religion, and loss of property rights. Liberals know that if they want to take freedom away from Americans, they must know to cook a frog, that is putting the frog in cold water, then heating it slowly to boiling. By time the frog realizes it is being cooked, it is too late. (applause) She continued that the same theory is being applied to the taking away of freedoms of \ " ---./ ) '-..J Regular Andover Planning and zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 7 / (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) Americans bit by bit. She also talked about the group in America called the Establishment, stating it now has its own local interest group and that it is coming to the point where America is being paralyzed by this group as the citizens abandon their freedoms. (applause) Sandra Carv. 17657 Round Lake Boulevard - asked who the two Staff are and who hired them. Mr. Carlberg stated he is the City Planning Director and Mr. Johnson is the City Code Enforcement Officer. The City Council approves their position and approved their being hired as City employees. Ms. Carv - stated they have ten acres. If some of these proposals are passed, they won't be able to live in Andover or pay their taxes. (applause) Dick Davis - didn't like what he saw or heard here. As a taxpayerr who pays their wages, he felt the two Staff should be fired because they are not needed. He has watched the Staff snicker as people are talking. He felt the passage of this ordinance would be a definite violation of his rights as a citizen. Mr. Davis then walked toward Mr. Johnson and stated if Mr. Johnson wants to ride around with binoculars and spy on people, he is coming close to stalking. Mr. Davis stated he thought he could get a lawyer and put Mr. Johnson in jail for that. Commissioner Apel stated he wasn't in favor of the ordinance either, but he cautioned the Staff should not be attacked personally. Mr. Davis - stated they are attacking him. Commissioner Apel stated only if the Councilor Commission, which are appointed, agree with them. He felt the Mayor and Councilmember are the ones that should be attacked! Mr. Davis - stated this is in violation of people's rights. If this is going to be passed, the people should be voting on it -- not the Council nor the Staff. He won't tolerate Mr. Johnson spying on his house. Mr. Davis also felt that according to the ordinance, all gas meters would have to be inside the house too, because it is outside storage of equipment. As a gas company employee, he would see that that be done if the ordinance is passed. The point is how ridiculous, and in some cases even hazardous, the proposed ordinance can be. Bruce Scharmer. 3201 152nd Lane - had previously asked Mr. Carlberg to look where he placed his 23-foot cabin cruiser which sits either forward of his garages or beside the attached garage in the winter. At the time, Mr. Carlberg said it was approved. He also has a fairly large assortment of wood, having recently acquired more, piled in four bins containing four cords each. It dries for a period of time, and then he uses it as his source of heat in the winter. Other than those two items, he doesn' t see anything wrong with the property. Currently, however, there are a lot of people in this room that get wood to use in their fireplace or furnaces. If they will be stuck without being able to store wood, they are in trouble. (applause) , / ) '-./ Regular Andover Planning and zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 8 (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) Tom Hills, 3595 144th Avenue NW - moved here about six months ago. The City is fairly nice and he thought everyone wants their property values to go up; however, he felt this is probably not the way to get it done. It doesn't seem right for the City to tell people what they can or cannot do, what they can or cannot have. He moved here because he likes the country atmosphere, the woods and open spaces; but he really doesn't agree with the ability to come onto private property and telling people what they can have in their back yard. The next thing he knows he will not be able to have the barbecue back there. He could understand towing away a junk car out on the street; but if someone has a collector's item sitting by the house, he saw no reason why they should be towed off or held hostage by the City. He is a freedom-type person; but it seems as though the City is coming down quick to a real metropolis situation, which is what he does not want to live in. John Johanson, 14349 Xenia Street NW - stated in the R-3 and R-4 zones there are many large tracks of 3, 4, 5, 10 acres; so he felt the ordinance is vague, arbitrary and capricious. He also asked what happens under the proposal of seizing property if he went to Arizona for four months during the winter, some of his property was seized, kept for three months, then sold. He'd come back and not have his property. The framers of the ordinance don't even live in the City, which he likened to the King of England writing our Constitution. Carroll Abbott, 2917 142nd Lane - is a 32-year veteran from the Navy, noting on D-Day 40,000 of them were killed in the Battle of the Bulge and 40,000 more in the Pacific, and he has to listen to this garbage when maybe two people in the City of 22,000 have suggested this change. Maybe the City Council should consider replacing these Staff people. There are a lot of droppings from the geese flying over his house all the time. Is that material? (applause) If there are complaints, why can't they be handled like the stop signs. He noted he and his neighbors clean up the grass as they mow along the curb; but when the City mows, the grass and clippings end up in the storm sewers. Who is abiding by the law here? A lot of hate has come out this evening. As far as coming onto his property, he has an invisible fence for his killer dog. The point is little movements like this lead to a loss of rights, noting the Hitler movement started with just one or two people. Will every person be arrested in Andover. The courts are overflowing now. He's a Key Coordinator so he talks to a lot of people. People are scared to death, charging if the City has the money to pay someone to spy on everyone in the City and walk onto their property, then there is enough money to have a good police force in the City. What about the garage can along side the street? That is material in front of his house! (applause) ./ Owen Stenvik, 14410 Round Lake Boulevard - felt a clean and orderly community is a worthy aim, but there are issues of definition and implementation that concern him. Most people today favor less government. It is confusing that an ordinance like this would be pursued. He objected to the abrasive way that it is being enforced. As , j : I \J ) "-/ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 9 (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) a car restorer and hobbyist, he was concerned with the definition of junk. He has a lot of money tied up in that junk. He objected to seeing vehicles driving around his block on a Sunday looking for trouble in an unwarranted way. Maybe an ordinance is needed that reacts to complaints, but the Sunday inspections is too much pro-active government for him, a person who moved into Andover because he liked the rural setting. This isn't good government to pass this ordinance and noted there is going to be opposition as long as the City tries to pass an ordinance like this. (applause) Richard Rammer, 3344 169th the Staff recommendation. be here tonight. Avenue NW - asked the Mayor if he agreed with Mayor McKelvey stated if he did, he wouldn't ) Mr. Rammer - stated he is a car collector and has a lot of money tied up in his ten cars. Sometimes in the summer he has all ten cars in his yard. There is no way the City can tell him he can't do that. He related an incident of trying to get a stop sign at 169th Lane several years ago and was told the City cannot afford it; yet it can afford these two Staff? Then they wanted a 35 mph speed limit on their streets, and it took months and months to go through all the State regulations. After that, they would told the City cannot afford to put the speed limit signs up at a cost of $75 each. He offered to purchase the signs and put them up himself and was told he couldn't because he didn't know the regulations on putting them up. The head of maintenance then offered to find some signs and install them on his own time so it didn't cost the City anything. In addition, the City then had to re- evaluate all the speed limit signs in the City because some signs were put up by the City without State approval. He questioned how these ordinance changes would even be regulated since the City cannot even afford the police to regulate the speeders past his property. He asked why the City doesn't get a decent police force and do something the right way. Why would the City want to regulate how he lives. He and almost everyone he knows tries to keep a nice place. If he wants to have 20 cars out there; he's going to have them. If the City doesn't want him to have them, it will have to put him in jail and then pay his house payment. But he's not going to go by these rules. (applause) / Sherrie Haslio, 14269 vintaae Street - lives in an R-3 zone. There were few houses when they moved out 25 years ago. They have two lots, a house, a pool and some cars. Her husband likes to work on cars and stores some cars in the shed on their one lot. Her husband was ticketed and he did license some cars. She felt that some of these things are against the Constitution, especially if people are going to come onto her property and look around and take things off of her property. Her neighbor has a boat in their back yard, against the regulations according to this ordinance; but it doesn't bother her even though she can see it from her window when she does dishes. And she doesn't think it bothers anyone else in the neighborhood. She didn't know where they would park their boat according to these regulations. They also have firewood. There are just too many things that are regulated now, too much government. Her husband has accused the Staff of protecting their , / . I \....J Regular Andover Planning and zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 10 I (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) jobs; as the more regulations there are, the better it is for them. She felt there are going to be more court costs for this. She also felt the use of binoculars is ridiculous. If the neighbors are not concerned, why is the City concerned? (applause) Chuck Huber, 16910 Tulip Street - agreed with Mr. Rammer, that these guys and the City Council are overstepping their bounds. If his yard gets messy, he cleans it up. His neighbors haven't complained; and if they would, it would get cleaned up immediately as it would if there were any health problems. He's waiting for the City to tell him he needs a permit for his fish tanks and to allocate the hours he can run his computer, the question being where is this going to end? They moved out here because they do not want big government. This is a democracy where majority rules. He knows the City received a complaint about a person building a shed by one person's lot who wanted it built on the other side of the lot. He alleged those people have the 80-acre syndrome, that is they own 2 1/2 acres in the middle of the 80 and want the rest of the property to be to their satisfaction. There's nothing he's seen that is unhealthy in Andover. He doesn't need to hear that he can't have three pieces of pipe in his yard, which he is using to make Christmas presents. Is there a problem with it if he doesn't get to it until two weeks before Christmas? He then angrily hollered he would / fight the Staff on this. (applause) Yvonne Puchalla, 3676 157th Avenue - felt Ms. Sonsteby had a good point about the frog. Government is getting too big and they are taking away rights so slowly that people don't know it. They bought five acres and pay the taxes on it. She didn't think people with binoculars nor anyone she doesn't want on there should be coming on their property. They have two dogs that will bark if someone comes on. She has two banties as pets that stay in the yard, and that is why they moved out there. She felt for the most part, neighbors will clean up their yards if asked to by other neighbors. Neighbors should know each other. Everything else has been said, stating she likes Commissioner Apel! (applause) Garv Rolli, 2815 135th Circle - has had some dealings with the two Staff before and it has gotten straightened out. At least he didn't have to tear down trees that God planted. He sees that the City is trying to keep people from coming out here, which was the ideal place to live when he moved out here five years ago. If this ordinance is passed, people will be leaving the area, not moving in. He felt the City Council should take a close look at the position created for Mr. Johnson, because he couldn't believe the City has someone running around with binoculars to see what he can tag people for. That's not right. That's not what he's in the Reserves for and protecting people like him to be doing. (applause) I Mayor Jack McKelvey, 15327 Niqhtenqale - explained they first hired Mr. Johnson because the City was behind in the enforcement of complaints. At that time he was of the understanding that Mr. Johnson was simply to handle complaints. After Mr. Johnson was hired and the items such as use of binoculars came up, he brought it up with the City Administrator '. / '--...) Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 11 (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) and gave directions that he did not want Mr. Johnson using binoculars and that he was to tag only on complaints. At that point he brought it to the Council and was chastised by the Council, who told him that wasn't the case. The Council has said that Mr. Johnson was hired to enforce the ordinance, that it is selective enforcement just to enforce on complaints. He was the one who mentioned the portion of the ordinance allowing Mr. Johnson onto private property. As a police officer in Minneapolis, even he couldn't go on private property without permission. He didn't think the Code Enforcement Officer can either. Also, he didn't feel the City needs additional involvement with the courts. The easiest way to resolve problems is if the City receives a complaint, Staff would knock on a person's door, state there is a complaint and ask if something can be done to fix it. If handled in that manner, he felt about 90 percent of the people would cooperate. (applause) Quite a few residents called him over the last few weeks about this proposal, with some even starting the story that he favored this change. He felt this is going a little overboard on people's rights. He settled complaints for over 25 years as a police officer; and he felt no court or City expense would be involved by handling problems in a friendly manner with the residents. That's the way he'd like to see it done; and he's hoping with the new Council in January that that will be possible. (applause) John Kowahlit, 2246 161st Avenue NW - stated since R-1 is to be 2 1/2 acres or more, according to the map he is in that zone but he doesn't have 2 1/2 acres. Mr. Carlberg stated he is in the R-1 zoning classificationr but the lot may be nonconforming. Mr. Kowahlit - has had several letters from Mr. Johnson and has talked to the neighbors around him. The only person complaining is Mr. Johnson. He's about to be in violation again in December because he parked his car for the winter. What is the difference if a car runs whether it is plated or not? He has a 1970 Olds he purchased in Florida which runs. If it has plates, it will still sit in the same spot. There was the question of a Suburban, which he was using for parts for his other cars. It didn't bother his neighbors; and he cannot afford to spend up to $15,000 for a new truck. As long as his neighbors don't care, why should Mr. Johnson complain. It is ridiculous to have everything in a building. He has a lumber pile; and the neighbors don't have a complaint. He felt it is selective enforcement when it comes to cars, noting other so called violations a few blocks away that were not cited. At a previous meeting there were complaints about not being able to afford to advertise or get information out to the people. Then how can the City afford Mr. Johnson? If the neighbors complain, fine; but if it's because Mr. Johnson drives by because it is convenient, that isn't a complaint. If he has to do things slowly because that is all he can afford and as long as the neighbors are not complaining, then it isn't the City's business. (applause) , ;" Hubert Smith, 13309 Jav Street - stated everything has been said. There are complaints from the old ordinance, so what is going to happen with a new one which is much more restrictive? He didn't see any sense in changing the ordinance now in place. (applause) '- / , , ,-.J Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 12 / (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) , / Thomas Minor, 15629 Kiowa Street - has not received a letter, but he felt guilty because of a suggestion he made to his neighbor, who was then tagged for it. His hobby is working on cars and he likes collector cars. He occasionally has some collector cars around, though he sold them this summer because he needed the money; but in the future he may have another one. If he is working on his dream, he did not think it is the City's business to 'come into his yard to tell him the cars should be licensed and running. If his teenage daughter's car breaks down and it needs tabs and it's November and he tells her to park the car next to the garage or in the back yard out of sight until spring, he didn't think it is the City's business. He's against intrusiveness on private property by the City, including the use of binoculars, stating that is ridiculous. When it comes to selling cars, he is guilty of buying cars that have been for sale sitting in people's front yards. He didn't care if the cars are in the front yard; as they are there for sale and generally go away over a period of time. He likes to drive around and seeing a few for sale. Mr. Minor noted his neighbor, Mr. Roden, bought a 1969 car new and has treasured it all these years. He related the incident of being at Mr. Roden's house one day and the conversation of Mr. Roden's wife wanting this car out of the garage. He suggested the old car be put outside; so he helped move the car, put it on blocks so the tires won't go bad and carefully wrapped the car. Two weeks later Mr. Roden was tagged by the City on that car. That car is Mr. Roden's dream, not the City's; and if he wants a car parked in his back yard, it's no one's business. He's on multiple acres of land. Mr. Minor stated he is the one who sees that wrapped car; but he's also the one who suggested it be put there, so he's not going to complain. If some type of revised ordinance is passed, he hoped consideration will be given to collector cars. These issues have corne up all across the country; they are not indicative of Andover. But there should be some stipulations for those who do like cars and want to park them outside. Typically, ordinances say if they are screened from public view there is no problem. He's against the ordinance as proposed, understanding the direction to the inspectors are from a higher authority; but he did question the need to have full-time inspectors. (applause) Robert Haslip, 14269 Vintaqe Street NW - stated there was a question of property values decreasing because of unsightly junk cars. He has some of these, and his property has never decreased; it has always increased. (applause) David Piacentini, 14424 Jonquil Street - related the many problems with the drainage in his development due to City error when he moved there and his many efforts to work with the City to rectify the situation. His questions when he purchased the property where could he build a fence and would there ever be standing water in the back yards. There was three feet of standing water during the super storm, and it took the City about four years to resolve the problem but not without two 10-hour days of ten trucks hauling dirt into the back of the 12 lots, after which a D-6 cat worked, shaking and breaking every window in his house. Mr. Haas, Assistant City Engineer, and John Rodenberg of TKDA asked him \ \.. ) o Regular Andover Planning and zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 13 , I (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) to do some extra contouring the lay of the land; and he was the only person who went to the lengths of renting a bobcat and riding it for 20 hours to contour the land to the City's specifications. He was the only one that contoured the land to try to make that storm drainage work, which has been a fiasco from day one stemming from the incompetence of the City planning not having inspected it properly. His first contact with Mr. Johnson was very amenable. Mr. Johnson came to his door and told him there was a complaint. He had to do a motor swap. His father recently passed away in California, and he needed a vehicle to pick up all the power tools he inherited. A friend had donated a van, and it took the limit of the time that Mr. Johnson gave him to complete that; but he did comply. There was a second complaint about a portion of the van which was the donor vehicle for the motor transplanted into the vehicle he drove to California. That shell was in the back yard. He received a letter and he complied to the day when he got help by placing it on a pad and in an enclosed area north of his garage, which by the proposed ordinance would be illegal. Within a year of when he moved in, he poured the parking pad, which was approved by the City's Building Official, Dave Almgren. Now he gets another letter from Mr. Johnson, which is his greatest concern, because a neighbor to the rear complained about his privacy fence affecting the flow of water to the pipe, which was on the lot next to him when he purchased his property. The pipe was J moved onto his property while he was having surgery at Mercy Hospital at ten o'clock at night with shining headlights into the house. Now there is a drain of which 3 1/2 feet of 4 feet of pipe is on his property. He had asked permission to build the fence before even putting an offer on the house, and he made as much of an attempt as possible to make the fence work after the pipe was installed. He left the fence four inches above ground across 40 feet, which exceeds the diameter and the flow rate of that pipe by almost five and a half times. He has been documenting all of this with video tape and still photos since moving into the house in 1987 because he's had to force the issue. Mr. Johnson, without researching or even bothering to call him to find out what is taking place, takes the word of the neighbor and gives him 20 days to change his fence. He noted his extreme frustration when talking to Mr. Johnson about this issue. If there is a legitimate complaint, he is willing to work with the City; but he will not abide incompetence. And the potential for abuse for Mr. Johnson with this ordinance giving him cart blanch, way too much power, is just unacceptable. (applause) Donald Leooe, 14417 Vintaoe Street NW - is an eight-year resident, moving here from a farming community. He likes the community. He felt the proposed ordinance is against his constitutional rights. It is someone trespassing on his property, and he will fight and will protect his rights and will force anyone off his property that doesn't belong there because that is what he was brought up to believe in. The other concern is going after his property after it is ceased, which will unduly play a hardship on him, which would in turn drive him out of the community. There are business people. What about them? Will they have to build large sheds allover this City to store there equipment? Then will more people need to be hired to enforce the ordinances and the new standards? Who authorized all these changes? As a citizen, he demanded \ \...j o Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 14 / (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) that answer; he would like to know the names of the persons who authorized the writing of the ordinance either before leaving this meeting or have the answer mailed to him. (applause) He also felt consideration needs to be given to all of Andover. Will future developments be stopped because of enforcing senseless laws about storage of items in the yards? Do we want another Edina here? He didn' t think that is what is wanted. He thought the Board wants a sensible growth pattern, not something that will restrict future growth. This proposal will drive out a lot of people and new businesses, which are needed in order to finance this community. He also collects antique vehicles. He had a problem, was sent a letter; and he corrected it. Then Mr. Johnson sent him a second letter. He talked to Mr. Johnson about the fact that he was already cited for it and corrected it; but evidently Mr. Johnson didn't bother to check on it. He felt this is getting out of line. He asked the Commission to drop this item, not table it, but drop it. The people just do not want it. (applause) Brian Barrinoer, 2938 142nd Avenue - is a fairly new resident and has enjoyed living in the City. He shares the concerns with everyone here and asked the Commission to take those issues into account and help the people to continue to make this a fine City to live in. (applause) Mr. Piacentini - stated there were six families that left in the seven years he's lived in his house. Of the six families, he knew of four that left because of the harassment they received from the City with the existing laws. If you give Mr. Johnson the power this ordinance will give him, he thought it is setting up a dangerous situation; and he guaranteed there will be a seventh family leaving the City. A resident asked even if this is dropped, with the mindset of the Staff, what keeps them from doing other things like this? Commissioner Apel felt the Commission needs to decide whether the Staff will be allowed to make policy. If the Council wants to abdicate their mandate from the electorate, that is their business. / MOTION by Dehn, Seconded by Jovanovich, to close the public hearing. DISCUSSION: Commissioner Apel wondered if it wouldn't be more appropriate to table the item. He'd like consideration given to the resident and Commission comments and the Staff prepare an updated version of the proposed amendments and ordinance. If the item is tabled, the public hearing can be carried over without re-advertising. He felt the following items should be addressed: 1) The definition of material. 2) What is magic about a 20-foot boat length mentioned in Section 8.01(A)? This ordinance was passed many years ago, but State licensing laws now relate to 23 feet. He'd like to see this moved to the 23-foot length used by the State. 3) In the entry onto public and private places, that needs to be looked at very carefully. If this is something the Council thinks is important, then at the very least it should state permission must be received from the property owner. Also, if the property owner refuses to give permission, the Staff should get an edict from the City Council. 4) The issue of a 90-day holding period is serious. If someone leaves in November for the winter months and '- J '- ) ~ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 15 / (Public Hearing: Amend Ordinance 8, Sec 8.01, 8.08 & 8.24, Continued) does not come back until spring and there is a code violation, it puts a real burden on people who are retired and leaving the area for the winter. Again, he'd like to see the ordinance redrawn taking these items into account; then possibly there would be more cooperation from the citizens. Residents from the audience shouted they did not want the ordinance at all. Commission Putnam also wrote down six items to be addressed, but he didn't know the proper procedure to proceed at this point. Chairperson Squires asked if any Commissioners supported the ordinance as proposed. Commissioner Apel stated he'd like to kill it tonight. (applause) Chairperson Squires suggested on these types of issues in the past, a task force has been established of perhaps a member of the Planning Commission, of the City Council and residents to see if there is anything workable that could be put together to address the concerns. He felt there are some legitimate items of concern, that being it is too intrusive, too ambiguous, too vague and presented too many problems. Mayor McKelvey suggested after the first of the year that he appoint a committee consisting of two Councilmembers and at least nine residents from different areas of the City to look at this ordinance and work out an ordinance that will be satisfactory to everyone. (applause) J Commissioner Dehn also asked that that be highly publicized. (applause) Commissioner Dehn and Jovanovich WITHDREW their Second and Motion to close the public hearing. MOTION by Apel, Seconded by Jovanovich, that we table this item until after the holidays and until after a task force duly appointed by the Council as done sufficient research on this topic, together with the City Staff, so that they can bring back to us an ordinance that is more workable and feasible than this one. DISCUSSION: The Commission noted the public hearing will be continued indefinitely and the issue will come back at some point. Motion carried on a 5-YQc, 2 ~bsent (rease, rock) '..eto/ 9:37 p.m. i--\-\je5, \-r\OL"De.hn") J ~-o..b:::,~-r L-PC:0-5e.,Pe.e.\c:-) \/o+e. The Commission recessed at this time; reconvened at 9:46 p.m. DISCUSSION - THERAPEUTIC MASSAGE ORDINANCE Mr. Carlberg noted the draft ordinance regulating therapeutic massage businesses in the City, which was derived from the ordinances of Elk River, Bloomington and St. Paul. The purpose is to get away from massage parlors and to incorporate massage therapy as a use within the City. He asked for direction on whether or not to distinguish between massage therapy in a commercial area, the use done within the home as a home occupation and the therapist who works off site going from business to business. The City of St. Paul distinguished between a Class A license for a commercial site and a Class B license for a home based operation which had more regulations attached to it. For both , J ~~) Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 16 (Discussion - Therapeutic Massage Ordinance, Continued) commercial and the home occupation, there would be a license for the site as well as requiring the therapist to be licensed. Most cities require an off-site therapist to be licensed, but the individual sites are not licensed. Commissioner Apel felt that adding the feature distinguishing between commercial, home occupation and off-site therapist may complicate the understanding and the enforcement of the ordinance. He suggested it be treated as one as the draft indicates because it is easy to understand; and if there are problems, the ordinance can be amended in the future to be more specific. Commissioner Dehn asked if the State is going to license therapists. Cara Geist - stated there is a task force to work on that issue. The massage and body work community is hugh, consisting of massage therapists, oriental body workers, energy therapists, etc. They need to get unified and then take it to the State for approval. It will be a two- to three-year process. That is why individual communities are enacting these types of ordinances. There is no standardized training in massage, even for what she does as a massage therapist. Unfortunately, a cosmetologist can take an 8-hour course on the weekend and call himself/herself a massage therapist. She is taking a very in- depth 600-hour course. But when the State takes it over, there will be a minimum standard for training. Until then, it needs to be clearly stated in the ordinance; and she was very impressed with this draft ordinance, that it is really very well prepared. Commissioner Dehn asked if this ordinance will allow the application of future State standards. Mr. Carlberg stated the ordinance can be amended to accommodate those requirements. This ordinance requires the therapist to have passed the National Certification Examination in Therapeutic Massage and Bodywork. Ms. Geist - stated it requires 500 hours of training before taking that examination. She did note that on Page 5, Section 2a, it states within two years. Because the license is good for four years, she suggested that the two years be changed to four years. The Commission agreed. The Commission discussed several other sections of the ordinance with Ms. Geist, after which everyone agreed that the provisions are acceptable as written in the draft. There was a question of insurance on Page 4, Section 3. Ms. Geist suggested the paragraph be changed to "Every application for a license shall be accompanied by proof of liability insurance from a company authorized to do business..." She also listed the benefits of belonging to a non-profit professional organization in the field and felt that may be a good requirement to list in the ordinance. The Commission did not feel the ordinance should require membership to an organization, but an applicant may submit a copy of their insurance through their organization to be approved by the City Attorney. Mr. Carlberg was asked to check with the City Attorney on that paragraph as to the appropriate wording to protect the City. \. / .j Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 22, 1994 Page 17 (Discussion - Therapeutic Massage Ordinance, Continued) Commissioner Jovanovich asked about stipulating the minimum age of 18 for applicants versus using age 21. Ms. Geist explained a high school graduate must meet the education requirements, which means he or she would probably not be eligible to take the examination until age 19 or 20. Plus a person must be at least 18 years old to take the National Certification Exam. Mr. Carlberg stated 18 was the standard used in all the communities. There are also instances when people graduate from high school at a younger age, plus the legal age of adulthood is 18. The Commission did not see an issue with age 18. Ms. Geist asked about Section 7,1, whether it refers to actual laws on morals. Mr. Carlberg stated the City has a high risk sexual conduct ordinance; and if someone is found guilty of a law that affects the public health, safety or morals, it would be grounds for denial of a license. Ms. Geist asked what the annual fee would be. Mr. Carlberg was not sure at this point, but he thought $100 plus a $50 investigation fee would be the annual fee for a therapist. It would be more for a commercial operation where a number of therapists would be licensed. Chairperson Squires suggested a provision be added on Page 4, Section b, 1, d, J requiring a criminal background check from BCA to be conducted prior to licensing. Mr. Carlberg agreed to add a provision for that. MOTION by Dehn, Seconded by Jovanovich, to direct Staff to make the changes discussed tonight for Massage Therapists Ordinance as drafted and forward it onto the Andover City Council with those changes. DISCUSSION: The Commission also felt that for the home occupation portion, the use should be allowed by Special Use Permit. Mr. Carlberg stated if that is the case, the Zoning Ordinance will have to be amended to include massage therapists as a special use. He will not forward this to the City Council until the hearings are held on the Special Use Permit provision. Commissioner Dehn ADDED to the motion: Add the Special Use Permit process for home occupations. Second Stands. Motion carried on a 5-Yes, 2-Absent (Pease, Peek) vote. OTHER BUSINESS Mr. Carlberg updated the Commission on the City Council's action at the November 15, 1994, regular meeting. to adjourn. Motion carried on a 5- The meeting adjourned at 10:35 p.m.