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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMay 10, 1994 ,- '\ '__oj /\ \._~ f " , '-.J ...".-".'.....-..-.....".,'......;,,,," "(J.'~" /." "\ "'-~,I',,, -~" .-"." '-<:"_:--""-i!':~ ': C} , - . :.': .L " . ' , l - . ',,_n!. ,[ 'i."! ,. ..','." u () ,~ CITY of ANDOVER 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER. MINNESOTA 55304 . (612) 755-5100 ANDOVER PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION MEETING AGENDA May 10, 1994 The Andover Planning and Zoning Commission will hold their regular meeting on Tuesday, May 10, 1994 at the City Hall Offices, 1685 NW Crosstown Blvd. The meeting is scheduled to begin at 7:00 p.m. 7:00 p.m. 1. Call to Order 2. Approval of Minutes: April 26, 1994 3. Public Hearing Continued: Special Use Permit - Home Occupation in an Accessory Structure - 15135 Round Lake Boulevard NW - Diane M. Forsland. 4. Public Hearing Continued: Amend Ordinance No. 8, Sections 8.01 and 8.08 - Recreational Vehicles. 5. Variance - 13735 Round Lake Boulevard NW McDonald's Corporation. 6. Sketch Plan - Section 12, Township 32, Range 24- Steve Schmitt and Mal Allen. 7. Sketch Plan - Section 32 - Downtown Center Second Addition - Andover Limited Partnership. 8. Discussion - Therapeutic Massage. 9. Other Business 10. Adjournment ( " \J Q}'-~VVlO 1'\ ~ ~ '-Fe 51J~ ICj~ . '\ ---.J ~ CITY of ANDOVER PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING - MAY 10, 1994 MINUTES The Regular Bi-Monthly Meeting of the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission was called to order by Chairperson Jay Squires on May 10, 1994, 7:00 p.m. at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners present: Bonnie Dehn (arrived at 7:05 p.m.), Becky Pease (arrived at 7:05 p.m.), Randy Peek, Bev Jovanovich, Jerry Putnam Maynard Apel, City Planner, David Carlberg Others Commissioners absent: Also present: APPROVAL OF MINUTES April 26r 1994: Page 6, Second to last paragraph, change reference to "Commissioner Peek..." o MOTION by Peek, Seconded by Jovanovich, approval as amended. carried on a 4-yes, 3-Absent (Apel, Dehn, Pease) vote. Motion (Commissioners Dehn and Pease arrived at this time, 7:05 p.m.) PUBLIC HEARING CONTINUED: SPECIAL USE PERMIT, HOME OCCUPATION IN AN ACCESSORY STRUCTURE - 15135 ROUND LAKE BOULEVARD NW, DIANE M. FORSLAND 7:05 p.m. Mr. Carlberg noted the letter from the applicant requesting this item be withdrawn from the agenda. The Forslands have found a new location for their operation in Anoka. He disputed that portion of the letter, however, which stated he had indicated the application would likely be approved. Mr. Carlberg stated there was no conversation to that regard. The direction requested from the Council on this item will be discussed at the May 17 Council meeting. He suggested the Commission accept the letter and withdraw the item from the Agenda. MOTION by Dehn, Seconded by Jovanovich, to so move. Motion carried on a 6-Yes, I-Absent (Apel) vote. 7:07 p.m. PUBLIC HEARING CONTINUED: AMEND ORDINANCE NO.8, SECTIONS 8.01 AND 8.08 - RECREATIONAL VEHICLES .~ 7:07 p.m. Mr. Carlberg noted the Commission discussion two weeks ago was the issue is not where the vehicles are parked nor their size, but how long a guest could occupy and use the vehicle for sleeping purposes. In researching the ordinances of other communities, he found the City of Burnsville regulates this. There a guest may use an RV for sleeping purposes for a period not to exceed seven consecutive days at one time :0 :',) Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 Page 2 ) (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) nor more than fourteen days total in one calendar year. If the Commission wishes to set a time limit, he suggested that same regulation be used. Currently the ordinance does not regulate the length of stay of guests sleeping in RVs. He also noted the current ordinance allows the storage of boats, trailers, RVs, etc., in rear yards as long as they do not exceed 20 feet in length. If they exceed 20 feet, they must be stored within a structure or on a driveway; and no change is being proposed to that provision. Mr. Carlberg stated the reason for this discussion is the City received three or four complaints of people living in an RV for six to nine months out of the year. That is the only issue being addressed this evening. He also noted a flyer that was circulated to residents on tonight's meeting which stated the issue was to change the existing ordinance for storage of RVs, trailers and other outside storage. .J Residents filled the Commission chambers on this issue, with many asking why they weren't notified about this issue, why it wasn't in the newsletter, why they had to heard about it from a flyer, and expressing frustration that they are not told exactly what is taking place. Not everyone gets the Anoka Union. Chairperson Squires explained there are only so many methods of notification the City can follow, and it is not practical to notify everyone individually whenever it looks at changing an ordinance given the size of the City. Notices are posted at City Hall and published in the Anoka Union, and it is the responsibility of those interested to check those sources or call Staff. /'\ MOTION by Dehn, Seconded by Jovanovich, to open the public hearing. Motion carried on a 6-Yes, I-Absent (Apel) vote. 7:14 p.m. Carroll Abbott, 2917 142nd Lane - stated his daughter is coming by on her way to moving to Florida. She might stay seven days or 21 days. If the City has the funds to enforce something like this for the entire City, then it has the funds to fund the neighborhood program which could deal with this on a block-by-block basis if done correctly. He felt the Andover newsletter, which goes to most people in the City, should be notifying residents of meetings such as this of proposed changes so interested people can respond. He guessed that less than 50 percent of the Andover residents order the Anoka Union. As a matter of fact, he didn't see the notice of this issue in there. He was misinformed about the basis for this meeting just like everyone else in the room. '- .../ Robin Anderson, 16134 Vintaqe NW - doesn't have an RV, but does have two large boats, a pop-up trailer, and two trucks. She wanted to know if she will be notified when the storage issue is addressed by the City, or does she have to call the City Hall once a week to find out. This is an issue that affects her life and those of everyone in the room. She expressed frustration that she didn't know about any discussion on this issue until a neighbor told her last night, and she didn't want the storage issue addressed without her knowledge. This is a big issue and she has to be notified if it is to be discussed in the future. She didn't feel she should have to rely on her neighbors to find out. u , '\ \J Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 'I Page 3 ~'--- ,,' (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) Chairperson Squires thought that because of the great interest in this issue, if there ever is consideration of an ordinance change, that other notification be contemplated. Commissioner Dehn stated the storage issue was discussed by the Commission at the last meeting; but because of the large number of people owning these vehicles, because there have been no complaints on storage, and because the complaints focused on living in RVs for extended periods of time; and for safety and health purposes, that is the only issue they felt warranted further discussion. Mr. Carlberg stated it is very difficult to inform residents of proposed ordinance changes via the newsletter because it does not corne out often enough. The process cannot wait based on the newsletter. Discussion continued, with residents expanding upon their frustration that they should be notified in the newsletter of such items and not have to rely on their neighbors and flyers to hear about these things. The Commission explained the process of responding to complaints and their role as advisors to the Council, again suggesting there be more publicity if this issue is ever discussed again. ~ Cecil Heidelberoer - has been in the City for 50 years and worked on many City boards, and there has never been much notification to the residents. He noted his problems with the City regarding his tire pile on Bunker Lake Boulevard once people started moving into the City. He didn't know about this meeting until someone carne to his door to tell him. He has an RV, stating it will stay in the yard; and if guests corne and want to stay in his yard, he's going to allow them to do so. Otherwise the City will have to put him in jail. , " Pamela Forcier. 14249 Vintaoe - stated many people are present because of the flyer. She stated there is obviously a misconception and asked for a clarification of the issue this evening. Chairperson Squires again stated the storage and parking of the vehicles is not on the agenda tonight, only sleeping in them for extended periods of time. Richard Pearson. South Coon Creek Drive - has children that corne home during the summer. He sometimes has seven legitimate licensed cars in his driveway during the year. If something is ever done about storage, he hoped that with an issue this important that all the residents of Andover would be notified before taking action. Chairperson Squires stated if the provision on outside storage were ever amended, it would not apply to Mr. Pearson's situation of licensed vehicles in the driveway. I' "i \- / Jerome LaFlamme. 14913 Seventh Avenue - has been a resident since 1938, and the property he lives on goes back to his family name to 1859. He's watched the continuing government intervention into peoples' lives, to which he objects somewhat. He strongly suggested on the issue tonight to look at a minimum time of two weeks for someone visiting to be able to go out and see the real beauty of the City. Don't restrict it to the point where no one will be able to utilize those facilities. \ '-) ,- -\ ,,-..J Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 Page 4 '- (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) Mr. Abbott - stated Commissioner Dehn noted the health and safety factor of living in an RV. His motor home costs more than his house does. He can live in his motor home twelve months a year and live just as well as the Commissioners do in their houses. It's just as safe; it's just as healthy. He may have to drive out to dump his tanks occasionally, but it is just as healthy as anything else. A house can be just as unsafe as someone' s motor home. Mr. Abbott also felt it is unrealistic to expect all residents to come to the City Hall every week to check the agenda on the bulletin board. He too has children who visit, and the City may have to put him in jail too. William Breeqqemann, 13677 Narcissus is skeptical of people in political offices. He woke up one morning and found a civil defense siren in the lot next to his, and he didn't have a say in the matter. That lot has not sold for years and he is stuck with it. The people tonight are saying they are going to be stuck with something. He wondered if there aren' t other City ordinances that cover someone parking or living on another person's property. Why start another ordinance? The people are also fearful that this ordinance, which they are being told is simple and doesn't apply to them, will apply to them tomorrow because of a different interpretation of the wording. , " , ~/ Terry Jurva, 2951 141st Lane - has been complaining to the City for five years about an open storm system 30 feet behind his house which always has 10 to 12 inches of standing water and 2, 3, to 4 feet of rushing water when it rains. Where are the City's priorities? The City is worried about an individual with one RV when there are 15 children playing in his back yard and the City will not dredge it to make it drain properly. That's patheticI , I / Greqory Schert, 16571 Verdon Street NW - felt this issue weighs heavy on senior citizens. Due to the bungling on the federal level, their Social Security system is almost broke. Then these people, who fought World War II, will be hit with heavy handed regulation and treated as criminals. He felt this is unfair against certain age groups because it is mainly the senior citizens that would be coming up here during the summer months. He was concerned that if government encroaches a little, where does it stop? If there is to be a time limit, there should be a cap that would not change unless everyone in the City is notified. Chairperson Squires stated they are only an advisory group, and the issue was more expansive when they first looked at it. With the resolution recommended to the Council, they will encourage Staff to inform the Council of the great concern over this issue and to expand the notification process if this is ever to be discussed again. He suggested perhaps a few designated persons can express these same concerns to the City Council. Mr. Carlberg also explained the City Council will be reviewing this item at their June 7 meeting, 8:01 p.m. The Council receives copies of the Minutes of this meeting, plus some watch the proceedings on cable TV; so they will be aware of the residents' concerns. I \ .J , v Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 Page 5 " , / (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) Odeen Haas, 161st and Xenia - asked about the two ordinance provisions. Mr. Carlberg reviewed Sections 8.01 and 8.08 of Ordinance 8, both of which relate to the storage and parking of recreational vehicles. Mr. Haas - stated the notice in the Anoka Union said "recreational vehicle limits to be discussed." Nothing else. He said it could have been elaborated. He asked about the cost of putting out the Andover News and the ability to put it out once a month. Mr. Carlberg explained it was a cost factor that was reduced when setting the budget by the City Council. This is something the residents can speak to the Councilmembers about. It would be difficult to conduct business on the basis of the newsletter put out every two months. That is why the Anoka Union is used. Mr. Haas - suggested a 14-day restriction on guests living in an RV, but then have a notification process of a permit issued by the City to allow them to stay longer. Commissioner Dehn stated she called some cities who allow this with a special licensed fee if guests stay beyond the time allowed by ordinance. It also controls the very extended visitations. '\ Mr. Haas - said there are hundreds and thousands of people who only live in their RVs, so they are completely safe. It is sanitary and clean. Chairperson Squires stated the question is where do they live in them. The question they are addressing is should there be restrictions on people living in neighborhood driveways. .~ MarvAnn Delqer, 1528 140th Lane - has a motor home parked in her driveway. They use it a lot, but no one lives in it; however, they do have guests. It would be nice if she had guests for one or two weeks, or 30 days or grandchildren coming, that there would be a place for them to stay. But she would not be comfortable with someone living in her driveway for six months. She liked the suggestion of a permit of up to 30 days. At that point, either re-apply for the permit or the City can check why someone is living there for six months. At this point several residents questioned what is the problem with living there for six months. One gentleman thought there were other governmental agencies that would take care of many situations, accusing the City of not knowing what it is doing from day to day. Why make more laws in this City to restrict law-abiding citizens because criminals do not obey? He has a 28-foot boat in his back yard of his 2 1/2 acres. Does he have to put it in his pond so he doesn't have to park it in his driveway? Ms. Delqer - truly loves her camper and does not want any restrictions \ on the parking. She'd just as soon not have someone live tax free on her ,/ property for six or nine months. She did not see a problem regulating guests to 30 days and to have to apply for a permit to stay longer than 30 days. Someone in the audience stated she can regulate who is on her property. ;' ") \. j '0 Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 Page 6 1 , / (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) Ken posterick, 3468 South Coon Creek Drive stated there is a communication gap here. He heard most people say they are looking for a more effective means of being notified when issues corne up that are of a concern to them. On the other side he hears the Commission's persistence that it is already being published in a paper that apparently very few people get. As representatives of the people, he stated it behooves the Commission to listen and make people aware of these issues. Failure to do that is interpreted as governmental arrogance, and that is what makes people mad, including him. Commissioner Dehn again stated the Commission will recommend that to the City Council, who in turn follows through with it. Bvron Bower, 1701 Ouav Street NW seconded the comments of Mr. Posterick. He asked how many RVs were problems with people living in them for six to nine months. Mr. Carlberg stated Staff has received three or four calls in different situations in the last six months. Mr. Bower - stated it doesn't seem to be a big problem that someone can't talk to the owners of the vehicle and property owners. Mr. Carlberg stated that has been done, but there is no regulation against it. ./ Mr. Bower - didn't think there should be. He moved up here where there is peace, quiet and space. That's the way he wants to keep it. He does not get the Anoka Union. Half of the information in the newsletter is over when he receives it, so what good is it every two months. If there are other issues that corne up, he felt the residents should be notified rather than have his neighbor inform him. His child is going to Australia for two months and the vehicle will sit in his back yard, not in the front. The last time his son went out of the country and the vehicle was left in the front yard, it got broken into. Ron James, 2258 137th Lane asked if there is already a county ordinance for living in parked vehicles. He was insistent that as a part of Anoka County, that ordinance should be applied through the City of Andover. If there is already an ordinance, why create more bureaucracy by making another one? If the ordinance is written that the vehicle must be moved after a certain time period, it only has to be moved one inch, making the ordinance ineffective. Mr. Carlberg stated this would have to be regulated with a City ordinance. Mr. Haas - asked when is the ordinance to be discussed by the City Council. Mr. Carlberg stated a recommendation tonight it will be on the June 7 City Council agenda. Mr. Haas - asked the cost of sending out the Andover newsletter. Mr. '1 Carlberg stated the issues of notification and newsletters, etc. are ,_J issues that should be addressed by the City Council, as there is nothing the Commission can do about them. (J , " u Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 ; '1 Page 7 '- ~ (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) Mr. Haas - stated a couple years ago he called the City about putting in stakes so they know where the roadway is when they snow plow. They told him one foot from the road. Then he got the Andover newsletter after the snow was already in the ground which said he could pick up wooden stakes at City Hall to put in the frozen ground. Mr. Carlberg advised that maintenance, etc., are not a function of the Planning and Zoning Commission. Those issues can be addressed by Staff or to the City Council at the Resident Forum portion of their meetings. Mike Walsh, 2859 142nd Lane - stated it is very important to get the information to the residents. He'd like to hear about the size of the vehicles. Mr. Carlberg stated the ordinance, which has been in effect for years, states vehicles up to 20 feet in length can be stored in rear yards 10 feet from the side yard line. Anything larger must be moved to a structure or a driving surface. /-, >,.-J Mr. Walsh - asked several residents the length of their vehicles, many responding 23 to 31 feet in length. His point was his lot is large enough to store is 23-foot camper in his back yard, invisible to the street and to the people around him; but the ordinance is in place that he is already illegal. In other words, he can have a 50-foot motor home parked in his driveway, visible to everybody; but he cannot park his 23- foot camper in the back yard, invisible to everyone. He asked if that issue will be discussed. Mr. Carlberg stated that is not an issue the Commission is discussing at this time. Mr. Walsh - felt that every resident who has a vehicle one inch over 20 feet should also bring that issue up to the City Council, not just one or two representatives, to get their attention. Virqil West, 14183 Heather - doesn't have a camper but hopes to get one. His in-laws both have RVs and do a lot of traveling. When senior citizens are restricted in their mode of travel and where they can park, is difficult on them. To sayan RV can only be parked and lived in for one week on someone's property is an extremely short period of time. Even 30 days is short. Three months would be the minimum a person can park and live in an RV on relative's property. He didn't think someone could park on vacant property; but to have an in-law or relative park on a person's property for even three months is not unreasonable. Commissioner Dehn stated everyone here has nice motor homes and recreational vehicles. Other people are not that way. There is a question of transients coming into the City and parking with friends in the City for six months. As farmers they had to build homes for the migrant workers; they were not allowed to provide trailer homes for them. There are some communities in other states that do not allow living in RVs other than in RV parks. She asked the audience to look at the entire perspective of the issue. '~J Mr. Abbott - traveled for two months, 10,000 miles last spring, south and west; and he stayed in supermarket parking spots, even when they were not allowed to park within city limits. They received permission ,. \ ,-j / "\ '----.) Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 ) Page 8 , / (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) from the supermarket managers. He read a section of Travel Life Magazine put out by Good Sam Club, an RVers club, pertaining to the reversing of laws by several cities which had severely restricted RV parking. If the Commission decides to recommend a specific time period for guests to live in an RV with a permit to exceed that time, he asked if there would be a charge for that permit, another tax to ask for his daughter to stay another ten days. He, too, encouraged the people to corne to the Council meetings, not wait until something like this happens and then get angry. Mr. Abbott then read a story of how plans that are bad policies on the working level eventually become thought of as good policies and implemented by the highest executives. Mr. Heidelberoer - stated the Commissioners call themselves volunteers but they do get paid for each meeting. He went to council meetings for 31 years, and he never got paid. He donated concrete when building parks. He stated if he asked for a permit to construct a building in which to park his motor horne, the City would turn him down. He's also heard that from many people, because Andover does not want pole barns in the "Edina of the North." or "'\ ,J Mr. Haas - asked why mes sages can' t be recorded on the phone after hours, so residents can call to find out what is going on at these meetings. The Commission stated they will forward that suggestion. One gentleman stated he asked for a permit about five years ago to be able to store his boat inside. It was refused. At the time they limited the building size to 1,000 square feet, which wasn't near large enough for the items he had for himself and his three sons. He understood a few years later that size was raised to 1,500 square feet, but that isn't large enough either. He asked for a 29x44' building, which wasn't approved. He then asked for a 29x40', which is the minimum size to put everything he owns inside; and that wasn't approved either. The mayor at that time, Mayor Windschitl, suggested he call the State Building Code, which he did. He was told by the State that those zoning ordinances aren't set in concrete, that it was the appointees to the Zoning Commission that set up the rules for small buildings. So his property sits outside deteriorating. Why is there the restriction on building size? They have the right to put their property inside to shelter it from the elements, but why is the zoning so restrictive? He just wanted the permit for that 29x40' building and didn't want to have to argue with anyone to get it. He asked if anyone was connected with real estate or development. The Commissioners stated no. , "\ ,_J Chuck Huber, 16910 Tulip Street - asked what the concerns are relating to health by staying in an RV. His family is welcome to stay in his home; but if they want their privacy and to stay in their motor home in his driveway, he didn't think that should be restricted. He also inquired about the law requiring the Dehns to constructed homes for the migrant workers. Mr. Carlberg explained that is regulated by the State Uniform Building Code and the Minnesota Department of Health. ') \- ) , , J '...../ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 Page 9 / (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) Mr. Huber - still believed government is sticking their nose too far into the business of the people. He will be at the City in an intense way of it starts to pull the rights of the people. What business is it of the Commission or others if he wants to have someone live in a trailer? There are a lot of state and county ordinances that the City should not have to be bothered with because ten percent of the people do not comply. He does not want to be penalized for it; nor should he be. He felt everyone should be able to talk as adults to resolve the problem rather than passing more laws. And who enforces it, noting they have a stop sign on 169th with not enough police to enforce it. Mr. Huber also related an incident of not being able to get the stop signs put up for over a year after fighting to get the speed limit reduced. Whose business is it to say that he cannot have his family stay for one, two or three months in his driveway with his permission. Mr. Abbott - thanked Commissioner Dehn for speaking up this evening. Commissioner Putnam explained this is the public hearing in which the Commission listens to what the residents have to say. After that the Commission will discuss it and try to write a resolution that is fair. ) Tom Nielsen, 2211 175th Lane NW - since there are complaints for only three or four cases of people living in trailers for extended periods of time, why aren't they approached one at a time to resolve the situation rather than writing a new ordinance? There may be laws already in the state or county that would take care of this situation without having to pass a new ordinance and restrict all residents. Chairperson Squires stated without any ordinance provision restricting the occupancy of the RVs to any extent, there is not much the City can do. Mr. Carlberg stated most communities regulate these by zoning ordinances. He is not aware of any other agency that would regulate this. Mr. James - suggested the item be tabled to allow Mr. Carlberg time to check with the state and county to see if they have something to address this issue that would supersede anything the Commission might suggest. Chairperson Squires disagreed, stating county land use ordinances do not apply within the incorporated limits of the city. Andover has its own ordinances and regulates the use of land within the City. Mr. James debated with the Commission and Mr. Carlberg to look at what the county has established, with Mr. Carlberg again noting this is not a county issue. He can review any county provision before this goes to the City Council. The Commission also reviewed some of the requirements of other communities, with several residents suggesting Andover should stand on its own and not make regulations just because other communities do. "\ , / Hubert Smith, 133rd and Jav Street - stated in 1958 this issue was discussed in Coon Rapids and the recommendation was to drop it. Over the years the issue kept coming up, and now he believed they are not even allowed to park a motor home on the front part of their property. Mr. Carlberg read from the Coon Rapids ordinance that there shall be no more than two major recreational vehicles per residential dwelling unit. \ " ) :,J Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 ') Page 10 J (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) Ken Kobs, 169th and Tulip - asked about a 21-fOQt boat or trailers over 20 feet which he would like to park in his back yard. He came late and did not hear the earlier discussion. Chairperson Squires explained no change is being recommended on the storage of vehicles. Mr. Kobs - would also like to see the regulations changed to get permits to build pole barns. He would like to build a pole barn on his 2 1/2 acres to store his camper, bobcat, boat, truck and trailer. Mr. Carlberg stated these item needs to be addressed at a Staff level. John? , 161st Avenue - noted there are only three or four complaints. If the problem is just because they are parked there or its a noise problem, call the police and have the noise taken care of. There are people who have their parents corne up to spend the summer. He asked are they going to be penalized because of three or four people. Andover is not other cities, so why even look at them? What is the difference if the motor home is parked there with someone living in it, especially if there is no noise, or if someone is not living in it? The motor home is still going to be there. If they are not leaving garbage allover, leave them alone. Especially if it is a relative. Should the whole City be changed because of three or four people? That doesn't make any sense. '\ J , J Mike Richards, 14024 Underclift - owns a 34-foot motor home, parked on the driveway in the front. It is clean and he does not use his generator. If people are going to live in it, they should be clean and not be allowed to use the generator, so people don't complain. If it is kept clean, he saw nothing wrong with it; because it is parked there whether there is someone living in it or not. If some regulations are instituted now, he worried about more and more regulations as to not being able to park the motor homes or trailers, etc. This issue leads to another issue, and so forth; and soon this will be another Minneapolis, where he moved from. He moved here to get away from that and to be able to have some toys. Randv Mever, 13348 Ouinn - moved to Andover because he can park things out here. He designed the house such that he could have an RV parked outside. The City told him that would be okay as long as it is not junky. If he can't park these things and has to put them in a storage lot, the lot gets broken into, which causes another stress factor. He is an RV service manager, and he writes 30 percent of the work orders on vandalism from storage lots. The homeowner has to keep his personal possessions at horne, and that is why he purchased his parcel. There are plenty of campgrounds where people can live in their RVs; however, there are circumstances of guests. This is a way of life, so why not offer a permit for so many days. But don't ruin it for the rest of the residents. '1 " / Mr. Huber - surmised from the testimony that the people are disturbed that this was brought up over only three complaints. He asked if the Commission can make a recommendation to the Council not to make new laws \ <-) '~~ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 ') Page 11 , j (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) over petty discrepancies. For instance, there would have to be 10 percent of the population complaining about something before making an ordinance regulation rather than just three people. It is absolutely ridiculous to get everybody wound up over nothing, really, as what happened this evening. Mr. Heidelberoer - stated the ordinances of the cities to the south were reviewed, but he suggested looking at Ramsey, Ham Lake, Centerville and Oak Grove. He also complained about being put at the end of City Council meetings so it isn't discussed until very late in the evening. Could there be a special time when this will be discussed at the Council meeting? Mr. Carlberg stated the City Council agenda hasn't been set yet, but he will attempt to make it one of the first items. Also, the City Council has the authority to move items around to take those with many interested people in attendance first. MOTION by Dehn, Seconded by Jovanovich, to close the public hearing. Motion carried on a 6-Yes, 1-Absent (Apel) vote. 8:50 p.m. r \ ) The Commission discussion was that more information on the regulations of cities north of Andover is not needed. Andover's situation is not similar to those cities, plus they felt they have sufficient information before them, including the testimony given this evening. Commissioner Dehn stated she spoke with a Councilperson in Ramsey, and they distinguish between city lots and rural lots; and their regulations are tougher than Andover's. Further discussion was all complaints should be addressed, but there was some concern about complicating peoples' lifestyles with more regulations. Can these issues be resolved in other ways without making an ordinance change? Commissioner Peek felt the magnitude of the problem needs to be considered. In his opinion, the magnitude isn't great enough to warrant the alternative, that is an elaborate licensing or permit process. He felt any time period placed on this is totally arbitrary. At this time he'd prefer to leave the ordinance as is. Commissioner Dehn agreed. Commissioner Pease also felt that most of the enforcement would come from complaints, so any arbitrary amount is going to be a problem. It comes down to people having to be good neighbors, and people living next door having to be more direct. She did not feel an ordinance would be enforceable. Commissioner Putnam also did not want to create any more ordinance regulations unless necessary. He felt it would be very complicated trying to cover every situation, plus it would be very difficult to police. Chairperson Squires was close to thinking something is warranted, but the way some cities have dealt with it is not flexible enough to deal with all of the variables that would arise. That may be why some of the i cities have banned it outright. The wording in the Coon Rapids ,j ordinance is flexible, "occupy the vehicles for occasional living purposes to accommodate visitors". He didn' t feel something needs to be adopted now; but if it continues to be an issue, the Commission should seriously look at it again and perhaps conclude that the Coon Rapids (J , .... '''J Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 " Page 12 / (Public Hearing: Recreational Vehicles, Continued) approach allows the flexibility to deal with the clear abuses of the intent. Without an ordinance, Staff has no authority to deal with the situation. He also felt the notification issue is bigger than the RV issue, suggesting the City look at the notification processes generally. The other Commissioners tended to agree. MOTION by Dehn, Seconded by Peek, it is apparent, at least with respect to this issue, notification did not reach the group that it should have and that the Council may want to look at the whole process and do with it as they may; and recommend to the City Council to leave the ordinance as it stands currently unless there are more complaints, and review it again if there are continuing complaints, with notification of the residents. Motion carried on a 6-Yes, 1-Absent (Apel) vote. 9:07 p.m. The Commission also recommended to those who are interested in seeing a change to the length of the vehicles which can be stored in the back yard that they raise that issue with the City Council at their May 17 meeting. The Commission recessed at this time, 9:07; reconvened at 9:14 p.m. , ~ VARIANCE - 13735 ROUND LAKE BOULEVARD NW, McDONALD'S CORPORATION ,) Mr. Carlberg reviewed the request of McDonald's Corporation for a variance to the parking setback requirement at 13731 Round Lake Boulevard. Ordinance No.8, Section 8.08(H)(5) requires parking facilities to be set back 20 feet if abutting an existing right-of-way. A 10-foot setback is required for side and rear-yard off-street parking facilities. The City Council gave preliminary approval to the variance. The variances would be from the 20-foot green space requirement on Round Lake and Bunker Lake Boulevards, and a 10-foot variance to the green space requirement for the side and year interior parking areas. The reason for the 20-foot variance is because the county acquired additional right of way when upgrading Round Lake and Bunker Lake Boulevards, creating a hardship. The new property line is the existing curb line of the shopping center. There is a 21-foot green space in the boulevards, plus McDonald's is providing green space around the building to make it more aesthetically pleasing. Because of the county's land acquisition, the rest of the shopping center becomes nonconforming, though they could apply for a variance. There will be a joint facilities parking agreement between McDonald's and the shopping center, which will require a variance to the 10-foot side and rear yard off- street parking facilities. Without the variances, 30 to 32 parking stalls would have to be eliminated, which would create serious parking problems. " ..... \_/ Commissioner Jovanovich asked if there is a way the drive-thru window could be placed on the opposite side, away from the parking. Commissioner Putnam was curious what was going to be planted in the landscaped area. \ () o Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 Page 13 :) (Variance: McDonald's Corporation, Continued) Gary Meyer, McDonald's Corporation - explained they are proposing the whole front and side be landscaped with shrubs, mulch, etc. Drive-thrus are always on the lefthand side, because that is the only way it works. This site did not work to move the building over to provide all parking to the east. The parking on the same side of the drive-thru does not generate problems with either vehicle or pedestrian traffic. The drive- thru traffic is metered with everyone stopping, and it presents less of a problem than most retail developments. There is 21 feet of green space on the right of way on Round Lake and Bunker Lake Blvds., and they are trying to provide the interior green space to soften the project. McDonald's was not aware of the need for a variance until the survey was done two weeks ago. Mr. Carlberg stated the grading and landscaping plan will be reviewed as a part of the commercial site plan review. MOTION by Dehn, Seconded by Peek, to recommend forwarding the Resolution as presented in our packet to the City Council for approval. Add a WHEREAS, a hardship was created by the right-of-way acquisition by the county. Add another WHEREAS, a joint parking facilities agreement will be required, addressing the variance from the 10-foot green space for the side and rear yard interior parking. Motion carried on a 6-Yes, 1- Absent (Apel) vote. This will be forwarded to the May 17, 1994, City Council meeting. r- , '-J SKETCH PLAN - SECTION 12, TOWNSHIP 32, RANGE 24 - STEVE SCHMITT AND MAL ALLEN Mr. Carlberg reviewed the sketch plan. Sixteen lots of a minimum of 2 1/2 acres are being proposed. The Andover Review Committee noted all lots must face City streets, that the entrances to Seventh Ave. must be at intervals of 660 feet, recommended that the westerly cul-de-sac be extended north to 173rd Ave., and recommended that the proposed north- south street be shortened to a cul-de-sac from the south due to the wetlands that may exist along 173rd Lane. The Commission recommended consideration be given on the alignment of 173rd in this plat with the existing 173rd east of Seventh Avenue. A question was raised on the effect of the development to the south by externalizing the street. Mr. Carlberg noted there are some wetlands to the south, but the development of adjacent properties to their highest and best use should also be considered when reviewing the plat. As proposed, lots to the south adjacent to the road could be created. " ) Mal Allen, Developer - showed a map outlining preliminary wetland which is the reason for the jogs of 173rd. Mr. Carlberg again the intervals between streets accessing Seventh Avenue needs addressed. Commissioner Dehn was concerned with having to outlots by adjusting the road alignment. areas, . stated to be create Given no further comments, Mr. Carlberg noted the item will be reviewed by the City Council at their May 17 meeting. \ ;,_J ( ') '-' Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 ') Page 14 J SKETCH PLAN - SECTION 32, DOWNTOWN CENTER SECOND ADDITION - ANDOVER LIMITED PARTNERSHIP / "' ,~) Mr. Carlberg reviewed the proposed sketch plan of Andover Limited Partnership to split off a 165x225' corner on which McDonald's will be located. Agreements for parking will be in conjunction with this proposal. Originally McDonald's had looked to leasing that corner but was not comfortable with all of the agreements. The Commission asked about the front lot line. Mr. Carlberg stated by definition, the front of the lot would be Bunker Lake Boulevard. The minimum requirements are met, but a variance may be needed to what is considered the front lot line. Commissioner Peek suggested the Building Official review the location to the property to see if it has any impact on the shopping center, as typically buildings are constructed with the level of fire resistance based on the proximity to the property. He also noted the parcel fronts on right of ways, but there is no direct access to existing right of way. Is there ample distance from the corners to provide an access if it is necessary in the future? Mr. Carlberg stated the county would look at approving further driveway access to those Boulevards. He felt the joint parking facilities agreement will have to cover that access, which in turn will have to be reviewed by the City. Chairperson Squires advised that provision must be for an extended period of time so some future purchaser is not able to negate the agreement and leave the parcel landlocked. Marnel Wilber, 3510 136th Lane NW - would like to see the Council have the businesses put up some type of berm to catch the liter that blows from the parking lot and from those businesses into her and her neighbors' yards. They get tired of picking up the liter. Even little bushes would catch the liter so they could clean it up themselves. Mr. Carlberg stated they will work with McDonald's on that concern. This will be reviewed by the City Council at their May 17 meeting. rY\ o..::.~e.. DISCUSSION - THERAPEUTIC HESS Mr. Carlberg stated he ~eived several calls on people wanting to conduct therapeutic ~ as a home occupation in residential districts. His research has found that this item really is not addressed by other cities or the League of Minnesota Cities. One of the concerns is there is no state regulation or licensing of that practice. , ) Cara Geist 13464 Jon uil Street NW - stated 19 states have regulations and licensing of therapeutic ~She submitted a New Client Packet of policies and procedures she would adhere to. Therapeutic ~8BB~tr is an emerging profession and has been an adjunct to medical therapy for many years. Unfortunately they constantly buck the ~~~itution association. She is an RN and a student for therapeutic~ c. There are schools in the area; and she attends the Northern Li~ts, which is the only one that is accredited by the American M'8oo5~e.;. Therapy Association, their governing board. It is ~600-hour program, teaching different modalities of therapeutic ~~~c. She anticipated clients \ .. / , ) Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 'I Page 15 / . . h . /Y"\~~~ e.. . (D~scuss~on - T erapeut~c f103S.::J. , Cont~nued) coming for relaxation, for pain control, and for sports work. There is a movement to get state accreditation and licensing in Minnesota, but that is not expected for another two to three years. Until then, people practicing must go before local Boards and help them get ordinances written. Ms. Geist knew of a similar home occupation being conducted in Coon Rapids. She offered to provide the information she has on the therapy and what other cities allow. Mr. Carlberg felt if it is going to be allowed as a home occupation, it should be looked in terms of a Special Use Permit similar to beauty salons and barber shops. The difference is there are sta~~5~gensing for those, where many people are leery of therapeutic 'HlOGB~e because of the lack of state licensing. The ordinance does not address chiropractic activities as a home occupation. Ms. Geist anticipated having a portable table, a bathroom and changing facilities, file cabinet, desk table, and CD player. There would be no items for sale. They work in adjunct with the doctors, chiropractors and physical therapists, often getting referrals from them. Chairperson Squires noted Blaine requires certification be submitted as to hours ~~ training anti membership in state or national therapeutic ~~~ organizations. He saw this as an emerging field that is often tied to beauty salons, which is already allowed as home occupations in Andover. He felt it is different than a doctor, chiropractor or dentist office. ) Commissioner Dehn preferred to have state licensing and regulations, but she wouldn't discount it at this time if there is sufficient evidence of accreditation and hours of education. She felt it was closer to a beauty salon situation than to a doctor or dentist office. Commissioner Peek stated there has been a hesitancy in the past to expand the health and beauty home occupation, as tanning has not been allowed. Right now he didn't sense that this is an appropriate home occupation. Commissioner Jovanovich agreed, preferring to see them licensed by the state. Ms. Geist argued there is a place for this; it is a very effective therapy modality. It would be very quiet; it would not disturb anyone. She would do no outside advertising. She felt it can be an asset to the community and did not feel it should be excluded because the laws are behind the times. She offered to give examples of communities where it is allowed. Commissioner Putnam was thinking it is more of a commercial venture than a home occupation. On the other hand, he felt it would be more of a benefit to do it in a more comfortable setting in someone's home. Commissioner Dehn felt it should be a home occupation, that it would be more private and more comfortable. The Commission felt that examples of what other communities do would be helpful and that further consideration needs to be given to the entire , issue of home occupations. Mr. Carlberg stated there seems to be a lack ) of information to proceed at this time. He will review the information to be provided by Ms. Geist and do further research and bring it back to the Commission if it warrants. He will be asking for Council direction on the entire home occupation ordinance. '\ \ .J \ l ,-' Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - May 10, 1994 / '\ Page 16 . -./ MOTION by Dehn, Seconded by Jovanovich, to adjourn. Motion carried on a 6-Yes, 1-Absent (Apel) vote. The meeting adjourned at 10:15 p.m. Respectfully submitted, ~~e~J- Recording Secretary \ ) '\ ;