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HomeMy WebLinkAboutJanuary 10, 1995 C) C) o 7:00 p.m. o o CITY of ANDOVER ANDOVER PLANNING & ZONING COKKISSION MEETING AGENDA January 10, 1995 1. Call to Order 2. Approval of Minutes: December 13, 1994 3. Sketch plan - Timber Meadows III - Woodland Development Corporation - Section 17. 4. Public Hearing: Special Use Permit - Real Estate Sign - Lot 3, Block 1, Jonathan Woods _ Edina Realty Sign Services. 5. Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobile Regulations - Ordinance No. 87. 6. Other Business 7. Adjournment o r--~w 0N'd O-p..p~ U ~ - \ l.;;tl..j /q3 o '7}\~ CITY of ANDOVER 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER, MINNESOTA 55304. (612) 755-5100 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING - JANUARY 10, 1995 MINUTES The Regular Bi-Monthly Meeting of the Andover Planning and zoning Commission was called to order by Chairperson Jay Squires on January 10, 1995, 7:00 p.m. at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners present: Commissioners absent: Also present: Maynard Apel, Bev Jovanovich, Randy Peek Jerry Putnam Assistant City Engineer, Todd Haas City Planning Director, David Carlberg Others APPROVAL OF MINUTES December 13, 1994: Correct as written. MOTION by Peek, Seconded by Jovanovich, approval of the Minutes as presented. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, 1-Absent (Putnam) vote. o SKETCH PLAN - TIMBER MEADOWS III - WOODLAND DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION - SECTION 17 Mr. Haas reviewed the sketch plan proposing the development of Timber Meadows 3rd Addition in Section 13. It consists of 12 rural residential lots and one commercial lot, with the developer wanting to develop it as a Planned unit De~~~opment. In 1990 the City Council interpreted Ordinance 8, Section'1.2~, to mean that no PUDs are allowed in the rural area. The proposed commercial lot is not consistent with the Comprehensive Plan; however, the Plan does indicate commercial development in the southeast corner of the intersection of Round Lake Boulevard and 161st Avenue. Variances would also be required for lot widths on Lots 1, 2 and 3 of Block 3 and Lots 2, 3 and 4 of Block 2. The Review Committee is also recommending that Narcissus Street align with the existing street across 161st. The right of way along 161st Avenue, which is an MSA Street, is 60 feet; however, the City will be looking at 33 feet from the center line as easement. The Park and Recreation Commission is considering accepting cash in lieu of land for park dedication. o In answer to questions by the Commissioners, Mr. Haas explained two of the lots on the north end of the plat were a part of Timber Meadows 2nd Addition, and the developer has asked that they be replatted into two lots in this Addition. The corner lot to the north on Round Lake Boulevard already has a house on it. The location of 162nd to the west is acceptable as shown. He did not think moving the location of 162nd would eliminate any of the variances. All of the lots are 2.5 acres. Lot 2, Block 1 would be required to access 163rd. CJ CJ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 , \ Page 2 '-~ (Sketch Plan - Timber Meadows III, Continued) Bvron Westlund, Woodland Development - stated the lots are 400 feet on one road and 280 on the other street. He asked if the frontage is determined by the direction the house faces. Mr. Carlberg explained the lot width definition is the narrowest portion that abuts the roadway, but there has been some flexibility in the past. In discussing the PUD concept in the rural area, Commissioner Apel wondered if the 1990 Council interpretation was also that of the City Attorney. Since a PUD is a contract between the City and a developer, he didn't think it should be restricted to the urban service area. : ) Mr. Westlund - didn't have the Minutes for that 1990 meeting, but he thought the developer was looking for a density transfer because of the wetland. They are not looking for smaller lots; they would just like to add a commercial piece. There is commercial on the east side of Round Lake Boulevard, and they are looking to create a buffer between the residents and that commercial area. The piece of property designated as commercial on the southeast corner already has a single family residence on it. Commissioner Apel felt the City has more control over a PUD than other kinds of development and that it should be allowed, even if the ordinance has to be changed to do so. Mr. Carlberg thought when the Comprehensive Plan was being developed, it was felt additional commercial development at that intersection would be appropriate and the southeast corner was designated as such even though there is a residence there. Mr. Westlund is proposing a five- to six-acre track located in the northwest corner of that intersection to be redeveloped for the commercial area. Commissioner Apel felt as that area becomes more developed, there will be a need for a convenience store/gas station at that intersection; otherwise it will exasperate the traffic problems by forcing people to travel further for those supplies. He also noted that the development of the smaller parcels that are left is difficult and that there will need to be some leeway in meeting requirements. There really is nothing magic about the 300 feet of frontage, and this developer has done a good job in the past. Councilmember Bonnie Dehn asked that the traffic at the intersection of Round Lake Boulevard and 161st Street be considered, as there is a high number of accidents at that location. The safety aspect must be considered for commercial development. Mr. Carlberg noted the commercial development could also be accomplished through a rezoning, which would then mean that it would show up on the zoning map. Mr. Westlund - stated it didn't matter whether it would be a PUD or a rezoning. They are looking for conceptual approval of a commercial area at that intersection so they can proceed. He also thought a number of the variances could be eliminated, because he was confused on how to ~) view lot frontage on corner lots. '-~ A woman living in Timber Meadows 1st Addition was concerned with any proposal to change the ordinance on the size of lots because the homes being constructed are very large, specifically referring to those with u CJ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 () Page 3 ,r) \. ./ / \ " ) (Sketch Plan - Timber Meadows III, Continued) 4 to 5, or 6 to 8 bedrooms which requires large wells and septic systems. She cautioned the Commission to be careful with that. Chairperson Squires felt any proposal to increase the minimum lot size is beyond what is being asked at this time. Personally he is not opposed to the commercial but would prefer to see it accomplished through a rezoning rather than a PUD. Commissioner Apel argued a 4/5 vote is required for a rezoning as opposed to a 3/5 vote on a PUD. The PUD is designed to allow the City to make the best use of the land rather than to meet every provision of the ordinance, allowing people with a reasonable mindset to negotiate. Commissioner Peek thought the PUD process was fine as long as the other regulations of the commercial zoning district are upheld. He also assumed the intent is to reduce the number of variances, which he felt are excessive. There were no further comments. The sketch plan will be forwarded to the City Council. PUBLIC HEARING: SPECIAL USE PERMIT - REAL ESTATE SIGN - LOT 3, BLOCK 1, JONATHAN WOODS - EDINA REALTY SIGN SERVICES 7:25 p.m. Mr. Carlberg reviewed the request of Edina Realty, Inc., to erect a real estate sign on Lot 3, Block 1, Jonathan Woods, pointing out the applicable ordinances and criteria to review for Special Use Permits. Staff is recommending approval with the idea that the Commission will discuss the placement of the sign. Signs are to be at least 130 feet from any residential structure, and the location proposed by the applicant does not meet that criteria. The developer understands he owns the existing house on that parcel and feel he has the ability to place the sign there. The only thing that can be done to meet the ordinance is move the sign west to Lots 1 or 2; otherwise a variance is needed for the Permit. In the past, such signs were allowed on a vacant lot; and if a house is constructed on the lot, the sign must be removed because the distance requirement is no longer met. Typically those lots backing onto a major roadway are the last ones to be built on anyway. MOTION by Peek, Seconded by Jovanovich, to open the public hearing. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, 1-Absent (Putnam) vote. 7:33 p.m. There was no public input. MOTION by Peek, Seconded by Jovanovich, to close the public hearing. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, 1-Absent (Putnam) vote. 7:33 p.m. The Commission generally approved of the Permit as long as it is located 130 feet or more from any residential structure, which is consistent with what has been done in the past. MOTION by Peek, Seconded by Jovanovich, that the Planning and Zoning Commission forward to the City Council with the recommendation for approval of the Special Use Permit requested by Edina Realty, Inc., to erect a real estate sign for the Jonathan Woods development. The request meets the criteria established in Ordinance No.8, Section 5.03 ,) ,~) () u o Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 Page 4 (Public Hearing: Special Use Permit, Jonathan Woods, Continued) and also Ordinance No.8, Section 8.07; and that the seven conditions included in the Staff packet be included as part of the Resolution. A public hearing was held and there was no comment. Make special note that Condition No.2, that the sign maintain a distance of at least 130- foot separation from any residential structure is required to be maintained by the Special Use Permit and that an alternate location will have to be developed for the sign as opposed to the location suggested in the application. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, 1-Absent (Putnam) vote. This will be placed on either the January 17 or February 7 City Council meeting agenda. 7:37 p.m. PUBLIC HEARING: DISCUSSION ON SNOWMOBILE REGULATIONS - ORDINANCE 87 7:37 P.M. Mr. Haas explained the City Council has requested the Planning Commission look at the Snowmobile Ordinance and decide whether or not changes are needed. Councilmembers have received complaints this season. He explained there are the Minnesota Snowmobile Safety Rules and Regulations that people can obtain from the DNR, plus the City has adopted an ordinance with a few more restrictive provisions. The City currently allows snowmobiles to operate on the City streets, that is on the street and not in the boulevard, going the same direction as traffic and within the posted speed limits. Snowmobiles can also drive on the county road systems, preferably in the in-slope of the ditches. They are not allowed on private property without written permission from the property owner in his/her possession. Snowmobiles are not allowed in any of the City parks or public property of any governmental agency, including Anoka County. The City has received a number of calls of snowmobilers in parks, especially the Kelsey-Round Lake park which is being developed as a passive nature park. The City has also received complaints of people putting up trail signs in the City parks, which also is not allowed and which have since been removed. Mr. Carlberg stated the main complaints for snowmobiles are on the vehicles themselves and for trespassing. The Deputy Sheriff stated there have been 30 to 40 the last month, though not all incidents have been written as an incident report. Snowmobile complaints have increased over the last year. Mayor Jack McKelvey stated he has received 97 complaints on snowmobiles so far this season. Mr. Haas thought the Cities of Ramsey, Ham Lake and Oak Grove basically follow the State Statute on snowmobiles. Coon Rapids has banned them completely. MOTION by Apel, Seconded by Peek, to open the public hearing. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, 1-Absent (Putnam) vote. 7:45 p.m. Jerrv Saarenpaa, 15318 Niqhtenqale Street NW is in favor of snowmobiles but felt they have to be policed. He's seen young kids driving down the middle of the street racing with cars driving along side, racing allover the yards, two kids on the snowmobiles. No one is policing them. It has to be stopped, and he didn't think the policing u (..J Regular Andover Planning and zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 \-j Page 5 (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) is being done. He thought it is a good sport and does not want to see it abolished, but now there lS no respect for anyone's property, knocking over mailboxes, throwing trash in the ditches or yards. Kids have to be trained, and the parents have to start doing it. Christine Brown, 401 166th Avenue - is in favor of snowmobiling. There are people who do not follow the laws; but by banning snowmobiles, those same people will not follow the ban. She thought it is possible to get more policing of snowmobiles in the City. Many people moved to Andover to snowmobile, which is why she moved here. () Tim Schmaltz, 14288 Round Lake Boulevard - thought snowmobiles need to be banned in Andover. Maybe they can be allowed up north, but not in the populated area. Last night when he was out shoveling snow, two snowmobiles drove on the shoulder of the road at about 60 mph. About two years ago he called about the traffic problem on Round Lake Boulevard, because he has to cross the street to get to his mailbox. Round Lake Boulevard is an extremely busy road, getting even busier in the three years he' s lived' there. Plus there is talk of another development up north. They can't allow the snowmobilers to run across Round Lake Boulevard up in their yards. They took about $200 worth of bushes out in his yard last year. They do not follow the rules. If they want to snowmobile, they should go up north, on the trails, on the lakes; but stay off private property. Don't run on the shoulders of roads; don't run at 60 mph; don't let the kids ride the snowmobiles, and keep it out of the populated area. , ) Merwvn Larsen, 178th and Xeon - is president of the Rum River Trail Association. The trail originally started in Andover at Bunker Park many years ago but no longer exists in Andover. It now starts in Oak Grove and goes all the way to Mille Lacs Lake. Snowmobile trails do work by keeping people on the trails. It works in Oak Grove, Burns, and St. Francis. They would have liked very much to have kept their trail in Andover, but due to the urban development and change in the landfill, they could not. It would have helped substantially in keeping the snowmobilers in one place. He agreed the snowmobilers are irresponsible in some of the cases. He speculated of the 100 complaints the Mayor received, probably less than 5 percent of the snowmobilers resulted in those calls. They are getting painted as all snowmobilers are the bad guys, and they are not. He is also a certified snowmobile safety instructor, and he just completed a class in St. Francis with 133 students. SurprisinglYr a lot of the adults that bring their children to the class do not even know the rules. The Minnesota State Snowmobile Association has tried for years to get education programs to the public by way of adultsr so adults can properly train their children on the safe use in laws and snowmobile operation. He thought the enforcement of the existing laws would help, though he recognized the money is not there for it; but he disagrees with a total ban of snowmobiles because some people don't obey the laws. Pas sibly, with the efforts of the snowmobile clubs, some restriction can be established in some parts of the City, provide education, and work with each other to police the actions. Mr. Larson felt many of the people drive in the urban areas u u Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 J Page 6 \. . , , . ) u (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) to get access to the county road ditch, to the trails up north or to the lake rather than haul their sleds on trailers. He doesn't know about the problems in the City parks. Realizing the metropolitan area is coming, those issues have to be faced; but as a part of that, he didn't think many snowmobilers would be against some restrictions in the urban area. Kevin Doucette, 14469 Xeon Street - suggested that the snowmobilers be allowed in the urban area; let them spend their money in Andover. On an average trip, a snowmobilers may spend $200 to $500; and they would love to go this year, but there is no snow. He thought many of the complaints the'Mayor is getting is because there is no snow and people are wanting to get out whenever there is a little snowfall. Yes, there are some who do not obey, which is making it bad for the rest of them. Everyone has to be registered to be legal in the State, and those taxes is going back into the community. He'd like to see that money stay here. Tim Dauohety, 1346 138th Avenue NW - moved here two years ago because they were able to snowmobile in the City. They purchased two sleds and do it as family recreation, and he'd like to continue being able to ride in Andover. He's not opposed to safety training or more policing of snowmobiling. There are a few who are disrespectful, but a majority are doing a decent job. Kelly Gothier, 16451 Makah Street NW - stated he should be against snowmobiling, but he is not. He has five acres on CoRd 7 with 1,000 feet of frontage, and he sees snowmobiles go by every five minutes. He agrees 99 percent of them follow the rules. He transplanted 300 trees since he moved here a year ago; but he could not ask the City to deny all the people the right to enjoy that recreation because of a few bad people out there who don't obey the rules. He felt it is outrageous that a community founded like Andover with all of the acreage would even consider banning a sport like snowmobiling. Ralph Anderson, 3183 140th Avenue - is a snowmobiler and loves the sport. His neighbors have put up crisscross barriers to keep snowmobilers from going through their yards, and he thought that is wrong. Obviously, most who are present are concerned about snowmobiling and do obey the rules; but there are a great number who don't. He was shoveling his driveway the other night, and there was a snowmobiler riding on the street without any lights on who almost hit a car. There is no place to snowmobile in the southern part of the City except in the streets, especially in the residential areas. He's called the Sheriff numerous times; 45 minutes or an hour later they show up, plus they cannot get the offenders because they are in a squad car. He was assured at a Council meeting two years ago on this same problem that there would be saturation patrols. He has never seen one. Snowmobiling should continue, but in its rightful place. Andover is not the place it was 10 or 20 years ago. It's too busy with too many cars on the road. According to State law, 14 year olds, with a certificate, can ride on City streets. He found that incredible given the high speeds they can travel. At the very least, he thought the City should outlaw riding on the City street without a driver's license. u u Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 ) Page 7 (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) Alan Stefani. 17308 Roanoke Street NW - has lived here for three winters. He originally came to complain how some snowmobilers have traveled over his driveway using it as jumps and the basic destruction of his driveway. He has no problem with the snowmobilers on the boulevard. He's only seen a few bad snowmobilers that will drive on his property. His concern is he doesn't know what to do to prevent the snowmobilers from causing damage to his driveway. He tried putting up snow fences and was told he couldn't do it. He's going to have to replace the end of his driveway, and he doesn't know how to prevent it from happening again. It is incredible when a snowmobiler expects him to move out of the way while he is shoveling his own driveway. , I '- ./ Carroll Abbott, 2917 142nd Lane NW - stated when he first moved here 20 years ago there were some snowmobilers speeding up and down the street. He stopped them by backing his station wagon in the middle of the street, telling them if he has to go 30 mph on the street, then so must they. He never had the problem again. He's concerned with parents allowing the five or six year olds riding on the streets. They drive across his lawn. He complained to the Sheriff's Department three or four years ago and was told unless the snowmobilers are doing over 55 mph, nothing can be done. He was frustrated that nothing could be done about such speeds in high density areas and the fact that by time the Sheriff does come, the offenders are gone. He didn't mind snowmobilers riding down the street if they are running decent; but many drive beyond the speed even though they know the rules just as people do when driving a car. In a side note, he commented that if City representatives and officials get people angry like they were at the November hearing, it can be very dangerous for them; though so far the people are not as angry at this hearing. Peter Kino, 719 157th Avenue is a member of the Snow Barons Snowmobilers Club. There are problems, just as there are in any community that allows motor sports; but the banning of the snowmobiles is not the answer. This is still a rural area and people still want to get to the outskirts without problems. He suggested forming an Andover snowmobile group to work with Andover to make snowmobiling a safer sport in the City. They may not be looking for trails like the Rum River Trail Association did, because that did not work well. But they can work with the manufacturers; they can get signage and get the land owners to work with them to stop snowmobilers from going into the fields. Chairperson Squires recalled this same suggestion made two years ago. Has there been any discussion committee formed to address the problems and develop educational programs. Mr. Carlberg stated the Planning Department hasn't had any discussions on this item. , I , ./ Ed Kowalski, 1990 181st Avenue - is in favor of snowmobiling in Andover and is in agreement that there probably are areas of the City that need more control or identified as the problem areas. He agreed with Mr. King about forming a group that can work with the City and the residents and their complaints, dealing with the problems. He's also a member of the Snow Barons Snowmobilers Club and a member of the MNUSA Club. Their o () Regular Andover Planning and zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 Page 8 " ) (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) club works very closely with other trails and on the problems of other people's trail to get people through the different cities. He'd hate to see snowmobiles banned from Andover; but he agreed there are some problems areas that a group should work with the residents to resolve. Because of the lack of snow, people are riding in the City just to ride whenever there is a little snowfall. Bill Gow, 16515 Arqon Street - has another problem, that is of a go-cart by his place that runs on the City streets with no lights. In Elk River there are classes for the children to get licensed to run snowmobiles. He also asked if four-wheelers have to follow the same rules as motorcycles. Mr. Haas stated a child under the age of 12 can ride a snowmobile with a guardian or person over 18. Ages 12 through 17 has the same regulations but must also possess a safety certificate. Over 18 they can drive as an adult. The ATV Ordinance covers the use of ATVs, and the only place they can be ridden is on private property with written permission. He was not sure about the need for helmets. CJ Mr. Gow - has put up steel fence posts with a fence rapped with flags; but those riding along there go just as close to the steel posts as they can. They turn over garbage cans. It's not only the law enforcement agencies, but the people that own the snowmobiles should enforce what their children do. Three came into their addition today, went through a four-way stop at least 40 mph, through his yard, cut across the street, and also went through the stop sign on the way back. He agreed these violations cannot be stopped by the police, but the parents are the only ones who will really be able to solve the problem. Douq Enqstrom, 509 166th Avenue NW - is in favor of snowmobiling. He's been snowmobiling for 20 years, but knew enforcement is needed. There are enough groups here tonight that if everyone tells one person and spreads this around, most of the problems could be solved. Parents have to see that their children observe the regulations. If that is done, then everyone can ride the City streets and county ditches out to the trails outside of town. Lorna Wells, 3348 168th Lane NW - would like to see someone ride in the street. Instead they ride in the yards, tearing up trees. They had a tree line of 150 feet on a corner lot; and last year kids were coming through the trees and tore up a garden she put in. She predicted someone will get killed where they live. It is dangerous. She doesn't want them on her property, relating in incident that upset her of her 10-year old son riding on the back of a snowmobile being driven by another 10 year old. She said the City needs to address this, because the City is not going to replace her yard and trees nor her 10 year old. C) John Campbell, 4174 143rd Avenue NW - stated there are about 25 families in their subdivision that snowmobile. They tried setting up a neighborhood snowmobile club. They put up signs and a snow fence in the park. The "No motorized vehicles" signs are ten feet into the park; and they had the snow fence sent up within that 10-foot leeway from the curb to the signs, taking for granted they could do that to keep the o C) Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 () Page 9 (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) snowmobiles off the streets. They were trying to set this up to control the new comers from cutting through their neighborhood between Round Lake and Bill's Superette. It worked well until one landowner on CoRd 116 complained, thinking she owned the wetland in the back, which is fair game for snowmobiles. They set the trails up so they were in the swamp and they sent flyers to everyone in the subdivision who do not snowmobile to voice their opinion. The trail was working well, keeping people out of the park and setting up an established trail through the subdivision; and they did not hear anything from the City; so he was irked when the signs were removed. He thought if a club was set up to work with the City and give some leeway in the parks that are close to the trail system to park cars, it would work well, similar to what is done in Brooklyn Center and Champlin. Their trail runs right through those cities, and he thought the same thing could happen in Andover with cooperation of the snowmobilers and City to establish a trail through the subdivisions. Most of the problems in the subdivisions are kids under age 12 riding through the streets with two or three others on the back. He does not want to see snowmobiling banned. u Mr. Haas stated the wetland is private property and not open land for snowmobiling. It is a DNR protected wetland, but the snowmobilers do not have the right to be on the property without the permission of the owner. It is not public waters. The signs they put up were not legal and the City removed them. Tom SchlichtinQ, 13437 Narcissus Court - moved to Andover five years ago because he and his family are snowmobilers. He did not want to see them banned even in the southern area. He noted there is a problem with children. Tonight he witnessed a four-wheel drive cut through a corner lot, and has seen then in the summer as well; and obviously four-wheel drives and cars are not being banned. Some policing does need to be done. He lives in the southern part of Andover and he does not mind the fences; but he would like access to Crooked Lake. On county roads, he thought it may be illegal for property owners to put up orange fences across their ditch line. He thought the county ditch is supposed to be accessible, asking that that be checked out. He is in favor of organizing a group in Andover to work with the City; but he did not want to limit the southern part of the City from access because he uses it to get up to the Rum River trail system. It's the parents' responsibility to take care of their children, not the City's. o Jerrv Sobieck, 2159 172nd Avenue NW - didn't think snowmobiles should be banned. He doesn't own one, but he agreed with Mr. King's suggestion to establish a club to police themselves and the complaints that the Mayor and Councilmembers may be getting. He did have a problem that there are no restricted hours of operation of the snowmobilers within the residential area. Also, the determination of residential area as defined by the State Department of Transportation may be different. His area is completely developed, and they requested a speed study last summer. It is a 55-mph area with no signing of curves, etc., so snowmobilers could also go through there that fast without posted signs. o -~ u Regular Andover Planning and zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 :~) Page 10 I' " ~~) o (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) Dave Condon, 14495 Yucca Street NW - has been an Andover resident for eight years. He and his wife have two snowmobiles and like to snowmobile on Round Lake and go on the trail system. He is concerned with the excessive speed on Round Lake, noting the serious accidents and deaths that have happened on the other lakes in the area this year. They also both like to cross-country ski, and they are afraid to go out on that lake because of speeds in excess of 100 mph. He does support responsible snowmobiling and does not want to see the sport banned in Andover. Because the current ordinance is not enforced, amending it is foolish. He lives next to Pleasant Oak park and there has not been a police officer there. There should be no motorized vehicles in the park, yet people pass through it all the time. He proposed the responsible snowmobilers here police the sport. Possibly one way to do that is have a permit system in Andover where everybody has a sticker. If someone is caught violating the rules and regulations, their stickers get taken away without getting it back, so they can't drive their snowmobiles in the City of Andover. John Lawrence, 14516 Round Lake Boulevard NW - has lived in Andover for 19 years. There were snowmobiles when they first moved here that were slow and obeyed the rules. In the last six years it has become terrible with the snowmobilers flying along being very negligent and the Sheriff's Department doing nothing about it. He thought 90 percent of the snowmobilers are bad, though he didn't know their ages. Deaths have been happening all around, predicting the same thing will happen here because of the population. He has a fire hydrant by his driveway which must be cleared. What happens when there is four to five feet of snow, he plows out the fire hydrant, and a snowmobile drops in that valley. Who is to blame if someone gets injured in that situation? There hasn't been much snow, and it was his contention that the snowmobiles should then be taken to a location where there is snow, not driven on yards creating havoc with people's property. He thought the City needs to do something, that is ban snowmobiles in Andover because it is mushrooming too quickly and there is going to be a death. He would like to know if he is correct in plowing out his fire hydrant. Rosella Sonstebv, 4151 141st Avenue NW - referred to Mr. Campbell's statements, stating they not only put signs on her private property but put a trail through her woods as well without even asking. They even tacked the signs on the telephone poles, which she thought is illegal. She told them it was her private property, but they responded that it was owned by the DNR. She felt the southern part of Andover is too crowded and too busy for snowmobiles; somebody is going to get killed one of these days. Also, they are out all hours of the night, even as late as 2 o'clock in the morning; and it is getting worse. On one weekend the entire rye field was mowed down with snowmobile tracks. Responsible people should know better, but they don't. She suggested deputizing a few of the people here to drive around and tag and immediately fine anyone found violating the regulations. ' () ,r "., u -,-- " i,__) (-) ., U Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 Page 11 (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) Don Eveland, 14722 Crosstown Boulevard NW is frustrated with snowmobiles. They've hit fence lines, taken out 100 feet of fence line at a time, and crossed property of multiple property owners. He didn't think there is anything they can do to keep these people off private land. He puts a gate on his property about three or four times a year because the snowmobilers take it down and drive through in his hay fields. His yields are way down, as the snowmobilers do a lot of damage. The enforcement and penalties of the ordinance seem very vague, suggesting the specific dollar amount of the fine be listed and publicized if caught. It's real frustrating. He hates to see them banned, but he might start pushing for that if this keeps up. He's lived here all his life, and he didn't ask for the snowmobilers to come. He used to have a trail run on his farm; but every spring he'd have to pick up beer cans from his fields because they were in the hay fields where they didn't belong. He didn't know what can be done. Education is a good start, but he didn't know if that would be the answer. Dan pohl, 4033 149th - is in favor of snowmobiling, as that is why they moved out here. It's the people driving the snowmobiles that are causing the problem. There has to be parental supervision. He asked if there is any possibility of an access to Round Lake from the northeast side which might alleviate some of the problems with the park and keep them off the streets to get to the access side on Round Lake. He'd be open to see if there is any way to open a trail from 149th directly to the lake. In Champlin they have designated routes to get to the trail systems, and that seems to work. He also thought much of the problem this year is because of the lack of snow and snowmobilers have no where to go. The majority of them riding around now are normally up at cabins, etc. Ken Slvzuk, 15211 Niqhtinqale Street NW - is a major landowner in Andover, owning in excess of 300 acres between Nightengale and Round Lake Boulevard. He listened to everyone tonight say how good and respectful they are. Out of those 300 acres, he has posted only 30 acres for no snowmobiling. One of the neighbors has a new alfalfa seeding in there and he has asked that people stay off of it. Six inches away from the sign, they are running their snowmobiles. This isn't the first time this issue has come up. If people are as interested in making everyone happy, they should start policing themselves. It should not have to come to threatening to ban them from the City completely. There is a path across the rest of his property, which doesn't bother him except for having to pick up the beer cans in the spring. Yet people don't have enough respect to stay off that 30 acres he is trying to protect. Again, he urged them to police themselves and they wouldn't have to worry about the City pulling their privilege. Beverlv Haoen, 14234 Round Lake Boulevard - has been there 34 years and watched this township develop from farms. What has happened to them with snowmobiles the last two years is terrible. The county widened the road, which pushes the snow into their driveways. If they don't shovel immediately in the middle of the night when the buzzing starts, they u () Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 ',-J Page 12 (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) have to use a pick ax to remove the snow. She witnessed a snowmobiler and his children get off the machine to go into the street to get around something. She also knows of a neighbor who suffered with chest pains from shoveling after snowmobilers had packed down the snow in the driveway. Round Lake Boulevard in the Downtown district is no place to have snowmobiles. There isn't enough room. She has to put on her turn signals to get into her driveway so the snowmobilers will stop; and they won't stop. She predicted someone is going to get killed out there. When her 39-year old son was 15, the county stopped him from riding his snowmobile on Round Lake Boulevard, impounding any machine that was riding the ditch. Now they are out there by the hundreds, and she doesn't know why that has changed. She's out there for four hours at night trying to remove the snow the county has pushed in before the snowmobilers compact it. /,-, ',- ) Ron Picotte, 3931 172nd Lane is in favor of snowmobiling. They primarily ride the river once it freezes up. He sympathizes with the landowners when people are disrespectful of their property. But at the same time, there are a lot of people in Andover who own snowmobiles and do obey the rules. He didn't feel that 40 or 50 people should be able to speak for 17,000 in the City. He is in favor of forming a club or a committee to police snowmobilers if that is necessary. It is working in Brooklyn Park and Champlin to have a main route through their community so people are not running into the yards of others. It may also be in order to have someone pick up a permit from the City to ride in Andover; and if they are caught violating, their number is turned in and the snowmobilers fined $25. If the parent has to pay $25 once or twice, they may wake up to the fact that their child is not obeying the regulations and maybe correct the problem. . I '-./ Dennis Picotte. 153rd and Orchid - has lived there for ten years and is in favor of snowmobiling. From the complaints tonight, he's gathered most of the problem is property damage. He knows a lot of land owners and snowmobilers. There are bicycle lanes to bicycle on in the summer. Let's have snowmobile lanes in the winter to take the snowmobilers off the private property and off the private driveways. If the snowmobiles were moved five feet into a lane, the city or county would plow that snow, and shoveling of driveways would not be a problem. He's been snowmobiling since 1968, and he was guilty of not knowing the laws on snowmobiling in Andover until night; but he usually goes up north rather than riding in the City. He felt educating the residents about the laws is critical to solving the problem. Is it legal to ride the ditch? Is it legal to ride over the driveways? He's not sure what to do, and that is why people are afraid to stop and talk to property owners. He felt organizing a club is a good start. He moved to the rural area to ride snowmobiles, dirt bikes or four-wheelers whenever he wants to; and he thought others also moved out here with that intent. Now they have to get together to solve the problem, whether it is turning the bicycle lanes into snowmobile lanes in the winter or whatever. He doesn't want to see landowners lose their crops; but at the same time he doesn't want to see the privilege of riding snowmobiles go away either because that is why many of them moved out here. '0 (J Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 i~ Page 13 (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) Someone had a problem using the argument that someone is going to die riding snowmobiles. If that argument is used, then the City also needs to start looking at banning motorcycles or cars as well. Councilmember Bonnie Dehn spoke to those in the audience noting she received phone calls on snowmobiles even before she was elected. Where is our courtesy? How many people didn't know the laws? How many people would like to have a permit and educate their children so they have respect for the property owners? How many people would like to see a group help the seniors along Round Lake Boulevard shovel their driveway? She saw an individual in her 70s have to shovel her driveway five times on a Sunday to get out because each time the snowmobiles left a six-inch pattern that couldn't be crossed. How many people would have their children help as community service to make their organization look fabulous and maintain good community relations? If the trails across landowners' properties were discontinued, there was a reason. On their farm, snowmobilers could have 15 feet; but they had to go 60 feet into a perennial herb bed that cost $3.25 at the rate of 25,000 plants. This requires cooperation on the part of the snowmobilers and the City or it can be resolved with the loss of privileges. Young children should be taught how to drive. Maybe there should be snowmobile licenses. Cj '--- ',,) Mayor Jack McKelvey is neither for nor against snowmobiling, but he knows how dangerous they can be. One of his partners ran his snowmobile at 110 mph up north, encountered a stump in the way, and was buried three days later. Another partner took a short cut across someone's property which was marked "No Snowmobiling". That person now wears a voice box and can barely talk because his head was almost cut off when he hit a barbed wire fence. One call he received recently was of a snowmobiler darting in front of a bus full of children, causing the bus to stop abruptly while the children were knocked to the floor. In another incident, two children were riding down the road on a Sunday afternoon. When a car came the other way, the children darted behind the parked cars into a yard where two young children were playing, almost hitting those children. He didn't know if outlawing snowmobiles was the answer either, as there are many tracks in Coon Rapids which has banned them. The problem is that many, especially the young, have no respect for the law, other people or others' properties. Snowmobiles are not allowed in City parks, yet the Field of Dreams area is crisscrossed with snowmobile tracks where the fields are not fenced. He thought it will be necessary to set up snowmobile trails as the only place they can be used; and anyone found off the trail will be subject to a large fine. The ordinance says a misdemeanor, which by law amounts to up to a $700 fine. Mr. Slyzuk allows snowmobilers to ride on his road in the winter; yet they cannot respect the adjacent property. He also related other incidents of disregard for others or the law by those riding snowmobiles. If it comes to a serious problem with snowmobiles in the heavily populated areas, the City may have to consider a ban there; but half of the calls he's received are from the northern portion regarding beer cans in the yards, etc. Last year someone took out seven (J cJ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 (J Page 14 (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) of his pine trees located 100 feet back from the road on his property. The Mayor asked that there be respect for people and their property and that the word get passed around that there is a problem. He asked them to work with the City to be able to make a decision to continue allowing them to operate. Someone asked how can a trail get established. Mayor McKelvey suggested the snowmobile clubs organize, come up with some ideas, work to set up some type of trail, talk to the people who own the property and present a proposal to the Council. It has been only the last two years that the law has changed that a landowner can allow snowmobiles on his/her property and not be liable for accidents. But they have to talk to the property owners, as every piece of land in the City with the exception of Crooked Lake and Round Lake are owned by someone. ,~ "'\ \-./ Someone asked what they can do if kids are creating a problem. Mayor McKelvey suggested either following them home and talking to their parents or reporting it to the Sheriff. Another stated that doesn't do any good because one has to be able to identify the riders; and if they are wearing a helmet, they cannot be identified. Mayor McKelvey countered even if the parents are contacted, they will know there is a problem. Another stated the majority of the people riding through their neighborhood aren't going anywhere; they are just riding, which is creating the problem. Chairperson Squires noted three letters received for the record: Jeffrey A. Nelson, 14025 Drake Street, opposing the intrusion of government into personal matters and suggesting Andover adopt the State regulations for snowmobiles; Mrs. Carolyn J. Fischer, 1348 149th Lane NW, in favor of banning snowmobiles in the streets of Andover within the MUSA area; and Wayne Ness, 14268 Round Lake Boulevard, feeling something needs to be done to control snowmobiles, especially in the heavily populated areas. MOTION by Apel, Seconded by Jovanovich, to close the public hearing. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, I-Absent (Putnam) vote. 9:20 p.m. The Commission agreed they would not be able to solve the problem tonight or this winter season and felt some of the suggestions made this evening are worth considering. Commissioner Apel suggested the Commission direct the Council to establish a committee as soon as possible; and one of the first things to address would be the problems along Round Lake Boulevard. The clubs could solve the problem of driveways along that road right now. Mr. Haas felt the ordinance could be changed to require the children to have a snowmobile safety certificate, which forces the children to go through the safety course. It can be enforced through a saturation project through Anoka County on /~ a Saturday from noon to midnight in which everyone in the City is ~~ stopped to be sure they are registered and have the necessary certificate and license. /~ lj --" ( I ~ ,--" t j ,~ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - January 10, 1995 Page 15 (Public Hearing: Discussion on Snowmobiles, Continued) Chairperson Squires also felt establishing a committee is a good idea to address many of the issues brought out tonight. He thought there is a problem in the urban area, and there may be some merits to looking at accesses to the northern areas, a permitting process, the hours of operation, speed, age, education and enforcement. Perhaps by the next season there will be a workable ordinance in place. MOTION by Apel, Seconded by Peek, that this Planning and Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council that they form a task force to investigate the snowmobiling problem; that that task force be given the information we gathered here tonight and that that task force then come up with some priorities in their meetings and report back at the direction of the Mayor to the City Council what their priorities are. Also suggest that anyone who wishes to serve on that task force notify the City Planner by the next meeting of the Council when they address this issue so that at that time the Council can have some names so they can start the task force immediately. Secondly, I do think it would be appropriate for the Mayor to contact the new Sheriff and ask him if he could increase the enforcement aspects immediately. Also suggest to the Council that a saturation exercise be organized yet this season as f' quickly as possible. Also, the task force look at the concerns of I ' '-/ snowmobiling and the traffic because of the new liquor establishment along Bunker Lake Boulevard. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, I-Absent (Putnam) vote. Councilmember Dehn told those present that they now have a window of time to change some things. If they know of anyone who is violating the ordinances, talk to them about the possible consequences. A snowmobiler stated they do not know who they are. It is a new generation with parents buying their children sleds without educating them or giving them experience in running it. They do not know, nor do they care, about the rules and regulations. Mr. Carlberg thought the item could be placed on the February 7 regular meeting. OTHER BUSINESS Mr. Carlberg updated the Commission on the actions of the City Council at their January 3, 1995 meeting. MOTION by Apel, Seconded by Jovanovich, to adjourn. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, I-Absent (Putnam) vote. The meeting was adjourned at 9:38 p.m. o ~esP~s~~~L ~lla A. Peach, Recording Secretary