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HomeMy WebLinkAboutNovember 25, 1997 u () "- o CITY of ANDOVER Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Agenda November 25,1997 Andover City Hall 7:00 p.m. 1. Call to Order 2. Approval of Minutes - October 28, 1997 3. Accept Withdrawal Comprehensive Plan Amendment and Rezoning Request (REZ 97-08) - 26xx 138th Avenue NW _ Randi Erickson. , J , / ~ 01 ANDOVER I 1685 Crosstown Blvd. NW. . Anoka, Minnesota 55303 . (612) 755-5100 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING - NOVEMBER 25, 1997 MINUTES The Regular Bi-Monthly Meeting of the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission was called to order by Chairperson Randy Peek on November 25, 1997, 7:00 p.m. at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners present: Maynard Apel, Lynnette Barry, Mike Gamache (arrived at 7: 13 p.m.), Lorna Wells JetTLuedtke, Jay Squires City Planning, John Hinzman Community Development DirectJr, Dave Carlberg Others Commissioners absent: Also present: APPROVAL OF MINUTES Octoher 28, /997: Correct as written. Motion by Apel, Seconded by Barry, that the Minutes be approved as presented. Motion carried on a 3- Yes, I-Present (Wells), 3-Absent (Gamache, Luedtke, Squires) vote. ACCEPT WITHDRAWAL COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT AND REZONING REQUEST - 26XX 138TH AVENUE NW Mr. Hinzman explained the applicant, Randi Erickson, has requested the application for a change in the Land Use District to Multiple Family be withdrawn. A new application has been submitted to rezone the property to R-4, Single Family Urban. "'/otion by Bany, Seconded by Wells, to so move. Motion carried on a 4- Yes, 3-Absent (Gamache, Luedtke, Squires) vote. PUBLIC HEARING: AMENDMENT TO ANDOVER COMPREHENSIVE PLAN LAND USE PLAN - CHANGE LAND USE DISTRICT FROM C, COMMERCIAL TO RU, RESIDENTIAL URBAN SINGLE FAiUILY - 26XX 138TH AVENUE NW 7:04 p.m. Mr. Hinzman reviewed the amendment to the Comprehensive Land Use Guide Plan to change the land use district designation from C, Commercial to RU, Residential Urban Single Family for 1.0 acres located on the southeast corner of 13 8th Avenue NW and Crosstown Drive He noted the applicable ordinances and adjacent zoning and land use. The applicant is a realtor representing ~) ,-.J '. J Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Nfinutes - November 25, 1997 Page 2 (Public Hearing: Amendment to Camp Plan Land Use Plan/C to RU, 26xx 138th Avenue, Cant.) a potential buyer. The buyer has indicated a desire to construct two single family residential homes, one on each lot. The question is whether this land use confonns with the other uses in the area. There are a number of multiple family units to the north and east, a commercial area to the south and single family residential across Crosstown Drive to the west. Commissioner Apel felt the use would not cause a conflict with the neighborhood, nor did he think it was valuable commercial property because it is only two small lots. He felt from the City's standpoint, the proposal is a good use of the land. Motion by Ape!, Seconded by Wells, to open the public hearing. Motion carried on a 4- Yes, 3- Absent (Gamache, Luedtke, Squires) vote. 7: 10 p.m. Barb Drabant 13753 Partridge - thought there was a small park in the area. Will that park remain? Mr. Hinzman pointed out the triangular shaped park to the south, which will not be affected by this proposal. Motion by Barry, Seconded by Wells, to close the public hearing. Motion carried on a 4- Yes" 3- Absent (Gamache, Luedtke, Squires) vote. 7: 12 p.m. Chairperson Peek concurred with Commissioner ApeI's comments, that it is an appropriate use and does not constitute spot zoning. Commissioner Wells felt the multiple use would fit better with the immediate neighborhood, but she was agreeable to single family housing as well. Motion by Apel, Seconded by Wells, to forward a Resolution to the City Council recommending approval of the Comprehensive Plan Land Use change as defined in Item 4 for the property from Commercial to RU, Residential Urban Single Family. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, 3-Absent (Gamache, Luedtke, Squires) vote. 7: 13 p.m. (Commissioner Gamache arrived at this time) PUBLIC HEAIUNG: REZONING - NB, NEIGHBORHOOD BUSINESS TO R-4, SINGLE FAMILY URBAN - 26XX 138TH A VENUE NW - RANDI ERICKSON 7: I3 p.nl. Mr. Hinzman stated all of the issues for the Comprehensive Plan Land Use change apply to the rezoning. Motion by Barry, Seconded by Wells, to open the public hearing. Motion carried on a 5- Yes, 2- Absent (Luedtke, Squires) vote. 7:14 p.m. There was no public testimony. Motion by Wells, Seconded by Gamache, to close the public hearing. Motion carried on a 5-Yes, 2-Absent (Luedtke, Squires) vote , , ) ~J \ Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 25, 1997 Page 3 / (Public Hearing: Rezoning - NE to R-4, 26xx 138th Avenue, C:Jntinued) Motion by Bany, Seconded by Wells, to forward to the City Council the Staff prepared Resolution presented (approving the rezoning). Motion carried on a 5-Yes, 2-Absent (Luedtke, Squires) vote. 7:16p.m. PUBLIC HEARING: LOT SPLIT - 17203 TULIP STREET NW - THOMAS AND SHAREEN JOHNSON \ '. / 7:16 p.m. Mr. Hinzman reviewed the request of Thomas and Shareen Johnson to split the northern and eastern approximately 7.9 acres from a 1 0.5-acre parcel at 17203 Tulip Street NW. The property is zoned R-l, and the present residence would be located on the 2.6-acre parcel. It is being proposed that a cui de sac be constructed on the west end of the property to provide access to the split property. That cui de sac would be constructed by the applicant and dedicated to the City, and the City would maintain it. Mr. Hinzman reviewed the applicable ordinances. In 1992 the Council denied a variance request to the minimum lot width in order to split the parcel by creating a 34-foot wide strip for a driveway from Tulip Street. The application does meet minimum lot requirements with the construction of the cui de sac. The proposal has been submitted to the Anoka County Highway Department, but no comment has yet been received. The proposed lot arrangement may hinder future property subdivision to the eastern half of the property. Commissioner Wells noted the county road through there has deep ditches, plus there is a dangerous curve just to the south. She asked if the county intends to upgrade that road. Mr. Hinzman didn't think the county has indicated any improvements wiII be made to that street in the near future. Thomas Johnson - stated it is good road where the cui de sac would be located. Mr. Hinzman also explained there is a 34-foot strip that is a separate parcel and is owned by the applicant but is not a part of the application. It would remain as a remnant. The reason the cui de sac is not proposed at that 34-foot strip is that the location would not meet the distance requirement between 172nd Lane and 1 72nd Avenue. Motion by Barry, Seconded by Wells, to open the public hearing. Motion carried on a 5-Yes, 2- Absent (Luedtke, Squires) vote. 7:26 p.m. Dean Olson 17132 Round Lake Boulevard - asked why a cui de sac is needed. He felt that hinders future development of the rest of that property, which wouldn't have enough road frontage. Mr. Hinzman reviewed the ordinance requirements for lot width and how those requirements are being met with the construction of the cui de sac. He did not know the feasibility of being able to extend the cui de sac in the future for further development. It would be difficult to utilize the back portion of the acreage from Tulip Street. / ~- ) ~-J \ / Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 25, 1997 Page 4 (Public Hearing: Lot Split, 17203 Tulip Street, Johnson, Continued) Mr Olson - didn't think it was good planning to construct the cui de sac, suggesting alternate accesses be looked into. It is expensive, and the taxpayers en~ up paying for the maintenance for something that is basically a personal driveway. He doesn't agree with the construction of a cui de sac. Mr. Hinzman stated the construction of the cui de sac would be the responsibility of the property owner. Thomas Johnson. 17203 Tulip Street NW - stated they have been going through this process for quite a few years. The most he could ever get out of the eastern portion of the property is two lots because of the low land. It isn't economically feasible to install 1300 feet of road to subdivide the property. They have worked with the City to come up with a plan that meets all the requirements. That 34-foot strip ofIand to the north could be tied into the lot split. Motion by Wells, Seconded by Gamache, to close the public hearing. Motion carried on a 5-Yes, 2-Absent (Luedtke, Squires) vote. 7:31 p.m. \ I ./ Chairperson Peek questioned whether this is a lot split because a cui de sac is being constructed and dedicated to the City. He felt it becomes a platting situation. Mr. Hinzman stated Staff has been looking at as a lot split and a street dedication, with the provisions of the Lot Split Ordinance being followed. The cui de sac would be built to specifications and would have to be dedicated to the City before the lot split could be executed. Commissioner Barry noted there is a lot of undeveloped land to the east. She had a concern that the proposal prevents the possible future development of the eastern half of the parcel. Motion by Wells, Seconded by Bany, that this is bad public policy because of the road coming off CoRd 58. It is negative for the cost to the City. It is questionable whether this is actually a true lot split or a platting situation. She proposed the P & Z recommend denial. DISCUSSION: Commissioner Barry felt there needs to be more exploration of a possible road system through there. She didn't feel what is being proposed here is a good idea for the entire area. Mr. Johnson - stated they can't afford to construct a road all the way across the property for one lot. The rest of the land is low and unbuildable. Mr. Hinzman noted there is a pond in the northeast corner of the existing lot, plus the southern portion of the lot is wet. There was some discussion with the audience about constructing a road at the location of the 34-foot parcel to the north. Mr. Hinzman explained the street jog requirements are not met at that location. Shareen Johnson - stated they have been going through this for quite a while. They can't put the road on the 34-foot strip. This is the only thing they came up with to split their land. They are trying to follow the requirements, and this proposal does that. They would welcome any suggestions. Tthey do not own the easement to the south. " / Mr Olson - noted the easement to the south is the access for three dwellings in the back, but the City ~~) , I ..j '1 Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 25, 1997 Page 5 " (Public Hearing: Lot Split, 17203 Tulip Street, Johnson, Continued) doesn't maintain it. If the easement turned at the comer, it would provide a good access to the back of the lot in question. Mr Johnson - stated they have been told over and over by the City that that . is not a road easement, only an ingress and egress for the three houses. That would be the more feasible and logical access the property, but it is not their land and it does not meet the requirements of the City. They are just doing what they have been told by the City. The discussion continued on alternative means of an access to the property rather than constructing the cuI de sac as proposed. Commissioner Gamache felt the logical place for a future access to the property is across from 172nd Avenue. For now, all they would need is permission from the owner to the south. It would be cheaper than building a cuI de sac now, then a road could be built across from 172nd Avenue in the future. With the location of a cuI de sac as proposed, there would be no way to build a road to get to the back. Mr. Hinzman stated the setback of the current house would have to be reviewed if a 60-foot right of way is dedicated to the south. A variance may be needed. The cuI de sac cannot be moved to 172nd Avenue because it wouldn't be on the applicant's property. Also, he is not sure how a dedicated city street at 172nd would affect those properties in the back that are now being served by that easement. / Chairperson Peek and Commissioner Gamache both felt a road going east at 172nd Avenue would provide a lot more flexibility for future development. Chairperson Peek felt what is being proposed is not a lot split because there will be street construction and roadway dedicated to the City. It is a band aid solution. It is the Commission's charge to look at this from a planning perspective, and a road alignment at 172nd provides a much better layout. Commissioner Barry felt the roads going east should be consistent with those coming from the west. Commissioner Wells was again concerned with the safety of the road, especially with adding another access. Commissioner Gamache suggested the Johnsons talk with the owners to the south to develop a cui de sac at 172nd Avenue and possibly using the road easement as a driveway to the existing house. Or build the road to where the easement turns south to provide access to the back of their lot. Motion carried on a 3-Yes (Peek, Barry, Wells), 2-No (Apel, Gamache) vote. This will be on the December 16, 1997, City Council agenda. 8:02 p.m. PUBLIC HEARING: REGISTERED LAND SURVEY - SECTION 34 8:02 p.rn. Mr. Carlberg reviewed the request by Country Ridge, Inc., for a Registered Land Survey in the vicinity of Commercial Boulevard and Hanson Boulevard. In 1993 the City filed a plat for right-of-way for Commercial Boulevard which created two parcels, one of which is substandard according to the minimum requirements for an I, Industrial lot. A Registered Land Survey is done on Torrens property. This property was torrens, so a metes and bounds description cannot be done. Mr. Carlberg stated it is his understanding the owner intends to combine Track C with the parcel to the south for a future commercial/industrial site. Another option would be to grant a variance, as Tract C by itself does not meet the minimum lot requirements for the area. The area is zoned , \ '-.J , \ '-J , , Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 25, 1997 Page 6 , (Public Hearing: Registered Land Survey - Section 34, Continued) Industrial and is within the MUSA; and the proposal is consistent with the Andover Comprehensive Land Use Plan.. The RLS has been reviewed and approved by Anoka County and the State of Minnesota. Motion by Wells, Seconded by Gamache, to open the public hearing. Motion carried on a 5- Yes, - 2-Absent (Luedtke, Squires) vote. 8: 12 p.m. Bruce Mendt 13350 Hanson Boulevard - was concerned with what type of business will be going on the lot south of Commercial Boulevard and how will it affect the residents who live in the area. He lives next to that parcel. Mr. Carlberg explained the parcel was zoned commercial even before the residential properties were developed. An office warehouse is being proposed, which is a pennitted use in that area. There are greater setbacks and more landscaping buffers from residential areas, and the Noise Ordinance regulates noise and nuisances. 1\..[ot;on by Barry, Seconded by Wells, to close the public hearing. Motion carried on a 5- Yes, 2- Absent (Luedtke, Squires) vote. 8:16 p.m. '- / Motion by Bany, Seconded by Wells, to forward to the City Council approval as presented by Staff; add the contingency that Tract C be combined to the property to the south. Motion carried on a 5- Yes, 2-Absent (Luedtke, Squires) vote. 8: 17 p.m. DISCUSSION - AMEND ORDINANCE NO. 110, REGULATING THERAPEUTIC MASSAGE Mr. Carlberg explained the City Council has requested the Commission look at a possible amendment to Ordinance No. 110, Therapeutic Massage. The City has received a request from Joy Pirkl to amend the ordinance to allow her to operate a beauty salon at 14029 Round Lake Boulevard that allows massage in conjunction with receiving a hair cut/style, a manicure and a pedicure. The ordinance allows beauty parlors and barbershops to conduct therapeutic massage without a license provided the massage is performed by a state licensed beautician or barber, and the treatment is limited to the scalp, neck and face. Massage related to manicures and pedicures requires the person perfonning the massage to be a licensed therapist and that the establishment be licensed as well. / Mr. Carlberg eXplained Ms. Pirkl also requested an amendment to remove the national certification educational requirements, which are severely restrictive. When the ordinance was adopted in 1995, the only method of veri tying therapeutic training was the national certificate, which required 500 hours of training and passing an examination. Since that time, it appears a number of communities are requiring the massage therapists graduate from an accredited school recognized by the American Massage Therapy Association (AMTA) plus 200 to 500 hours of training. The only difference is that they don't have to take the national examination. There is still no state licensing for therapeutic massage; however, it is expected that the 1998 legislature will consider requiring therapists to be licensed by the state. \.- j) .. '-.J Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting AJinutes - November 25, 1997 Page 7 (Discussion: Amend Ordinance 110, Therapeutic Massage, Continued) The Commission discussed the request for the two amendments. There was general agreement to amend the ordinance to allow the exemptions for manicures and pedicures; however, there was concern with making a change in the educational requirements. Mr. Carlberg explained the argument has been why should they have to take the national examination if they have met the education requirements from an accredited school and the hourly requirements. He did not think the schools were recognized by the AMT A in 1995 when the City first adopted the ordinance. Joy Pirkl - explained each school has a different curriculum, but they are accredited by the Accreditation Commission of Career Schools of College and Technology. Those schools also qualify students for federal and/or state financial aid. She suggested that the passage of the national certification exam in therapeutic massage and bodywork be required, but add another provision in the ordinance to accept 500 hours of training from an accredited school or a specific number of years experience in massage therapy under a doctor or chiropractor in lieu of the national certificate. Mr. Carlberg stated Staff is comfortable with the requested change to verify proof of education and experience, as many other cities have that requirement. If and when the State does require state licensing, he felt the City should amend the ordinance to require that licensing as well. It was asked by the Commission if those high school students under age 18 would be able to participate in massage therapy through the post secondary educational opportunity program. Mr. Carlberg noted the ordinance requires massage therapists be at least 18 years old. The Commission asked if the exemptions for manicure and pedicure would then be allowed in a home beauty shop or barber shop. Because the intent of the ordinance was that massage therapy would be allowed in a commercial area only, not as a home occupation, it was suggested the requested amendment allowing manicures and pedicures would not be allowed in those home occupations, only in commercial areas. Ms. Pirkl - stated it was not her intent to have a business in her home; however, when attending beauty school, beauticians receive 200 to 1,000 hours dedicated to anatomy and physiology. They are trained in masseuse and licensed by the State of Minnesota, plus they have to take the state board examination before they can be licensed. However, hardly anyone in the entire state will allow them to practice what they are licensed to do. People are very de<':icated to that profession, which is blossoming allover the country. It seems ironic to her that there is so much discussion over what hair dressers can do when they have been licensed to do it. .' After further discussion, the Commission directed the Staff to prepare an amendment to the ordinance for consideration that would allow manicures and pedicures in beauty shops and barber shops in the commercial or industrial area. The exemption would not be allowed in home occupations. The educational requirements could be either proof of passing the National Certification Examination in Therapeutic Massage and Bodywork or graduation from a school accredited by the American Massage Therapy Association. Staff was also asked to research the standard requirements of accredited massage therapy institutions as to the number of hours of classroom and clinical training that is required. A suggestion was the 500 hours of classroom training would not need to be an additional requirement if that is already being accomplished through the educational requirement. , , ) 'J '- ~ , , Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Mil/utes - November 25, 1997 Page 8 DISCUSSION - NOISE ORDINANCE/PO V'S SPORTS BAR '- ./ Mr. Carlberg explained the City Council has asked the Planning and Zoning Commission to consider an amendment to Ordinance No. 230, Noise Ordinance, or to suggest other resolutions concerning the noise issue related to the operation of the ball fields at Pov's Sports Bar, 1851 Bunker Lake Boulevard. The City has received a complaint and a petition from the neighboring residents of Po v's relating to noise from the ball fields after 10 p.m. The Noise Ordinance prohibits any noise and/or act which is plainly audible at the property line of a structure or building or at a distance of 50 feet of its source between the hours of 10 p.m. and 7 a.m. The Special Use Permit granted to Pov's in 1994 was for a liquor license to operate a restaurantlbar with two ball fields and two volleyball courts. At the discussion of that permit, the hours of operation of the ball fields were discussed, and the owner indicated they would operate until 10:30 p.m. on week days. That was not included in the Special Use Permit because the Permit was for the liquor license only, nor would a change to that Permit relative to hours of operation be appropriate. The feeling of the City at the time of these discussions was that there would not be a noise problem because of the distance between the ball fields at Pov's and the nearest residence. He is not aware of any issues relating to alcohol on the ball fields. The issue has been the noise after 10 p. m. From the fence to the nearest comer of a residential building is about 800 feet. He did not know the history behind setting the hours of 10 p.m. and 7 a.m. in the ordinance or whether that comes from the state statute. Ail terms of the Special Use Permit and agreement relating to fencing and landscaping have been met. To his knowledge, the facility is being maintained. Mr. Carlberg also reviewed the two or three calls made by residents to the Sheriff's Department relating to noise, all which occurred between September and October of 1997. The City received a letter from the Sheriffs Department dated October 15, 1997, indicating the noise was normal at the time the officer responded to the call. Staff is not aware of any noise problems relating to any other ball fields in the City; however, he was not sure whether or not games at the City Hall fields or Sunshine Park go beyond 10 p.m. This was the third summer of operation at Pov's, and he did not know if there is a correlation between the complaints which have been only recent and the trees that were destroyed in the storms this summer. Brad Povlitzki owner and general manager of Po v's Sports Bar - believed the reason this has been brought up is a resident found out the Noise Ordinance is 10 o'clock. Since then that person has called quite often. The Sheriff's report indicates there was no extension of noise. Before he purchased the property and invested about $2 million in the building, softball fields and fencing, he received permission to end softball games at 10:30 p.m. Softball is the main focus and main source of revenue. If the City does not allow him to play games until 10:30, he would lose 30 percent of his business. He called many cities that have adult softball games similar to his operation plus those games played in City parks. He gave a copy of his findings to the Commission. Generally the hours of operation end at 10:30 to 11 o'clock at night. This is softball. There is a solid buffer of woods / between the fields and the residents. His games start at 6: 15 p.m., which is the same start time as other cities. Games are limited to one hour, with 10 minutes between to shake hands and get the new players on the fields. Foul language was brought up at the last meeting. They have very strict rules , \ , \--./ ; v' , , Regular Planning and Zoning Commission A1eeting Minules - November 25, 1997 Page 9 (Discussion - Noise Ordinance/Pol' 's Sports Bar, Continued) against foul language which is enforced by the umpires. A player will get kicked out of the game for swearing; and if repeated, a player can be kicked out for up to a year. Another complaint was the sound of the balls hitting the bats. It is 800 to 900 feet through solid woods with thick leaves and brush. He felt the complaints are vindictive toward him. He was in LasVegas to celebrate the holidays with his parents and family when notified of this meeting, which caused him to have to fly back specifically for this. He is very upset about that. His facility pays $80,000 a year in property taxes, which he will not be able to afford ifhis businesses is cut back. He hires 50 to 60 employees, of which 30 percent would have to be laid offifhe's not allowed to play softball until 10:30 p.m. He planted additional trees as a buffer to the residents at his cost. All were quick growing popular trees and are now over 20 feet tall. The fencing around the fields is wood. '. Commissioner Wells asked about sound baffling on the inside of the fence. Mr. Povlitzki stated that would be an additional cost, but he's already been given the right to play until 10:30 by the City. It is a recreational sport, very organized and controlled, including the language. Umpires would lose their licenses to umpire if they allowed profanity on the fields. Most of the forfeit games are the 6: 15 ones because people just can't get there that early. The last game starts at 9: 15 or 9:30; but many of the people come inside of the building before 10 o'clock because of the mosquitos and bugs. It is generally \',;ves and children cheering on the teams, which is a positive situation. If the City wants a petition, he could easily get 1,000 signatures to continue playing the games until 10:30. Mr. YOllnf!: 13885 Osage - stated he lives two blocks from where the trees end. They can very clearly hear the sounds from the ball park. They hear 30 to 40 people cheering when someone makes a home run. There are no trees that will stop that sound in any way. The trees planted on the north side of the ball fields are 12 feet apart. The sound of the ball contacting with the aluminum bat at night sounds like someone is directly outside his window. This is not a personal issue. Last summer after the outdoor concert in July, he talked with many of his neighbors who also indicated they were getting fed up with the noise and felt something should be done. He felt that outdoor concert is what brought this to a head. They have the right to have peace and quiet on their own property when they get home at night. When the noise comes from 800 feet away, he wonders how much respect this place of business has for the residents that were there long before the business was. Half the ball teams aren't from Andover and don't have any respect for the residents around there, especially the way they drive up and down Bunker Lake Boulevard at night. Some pine trees were planted that are 4 to 5 feet tall. The scoreboard was placed so people from the bar could watch. If it had been placed on the west end, it would have provided a greater buffer for sound for the residents. He has called about the noise at 10:05 and 10: 10, but the police don't respor.d because one of their teams plays there also. It is not a priority for the police. They have never come into their neighborhood to sit and listen for the noise from the bar. Some nights the games go on until 10:45, and it sounds like people are standing right outside of his bedroom window. He gets up at 4 a.m. to work, and he doesn't like being kept up until 10:45 or 11 o'clock because they are allowed to abuse the Noise Ordinance. It is a nuisance which clearly violates the ordinance. He suggested the first game start earlier. / Commissioner Wells asked if there are noise problems on the weekends. Mr. Young responded he , l ., '- ,,' , / \J \ '.-J Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 25, 1997 Page 10 (Discussion - Noise OrdinancelPov's Sports Bar, Continued) is not home on the weekends during the summer, so he did not know if there was a problem on weekends. He again stated this is not a vendetta, but the issue peaked after the July concert. The residents said they have finally had enough of it. Those residents also pay taxes, and a sound barrier should have been required to satisfy the concerns of the residents. Mr Povlitzki - noted the police report indicates a call at 10: 10. The police were at his place at 10: 15 and there was no evidence of noise on the property. Commissioner Apel felt this was a clash of wills, not a noise issue, and felt the Council should be chastised for passing the issue to the Planning Commission for direction. The City granted a liquor license, then pulled it back for Sundays. The City courted Mr. Povlitzki to invest money in the community, and to come back after three years and challenge his ability to continue his business is ridiculous. He felt the City had a moral and ethical obligation to Mr. Povlitzki and others who come here to protect them from special interest groups that are tlying to destroy them. He felt this is a special interest group. Mayor Jack McKelvey addressed the Commission stating the Noise Ordinance states 10 o'clock and it does not give special pennission to extend that time for sporting events. That was sent back to the Commission to consider. Do other games in the City have to stop just because it is 10 o'clock? He can hear the noise from the lights being turned on and off and the hitting of the balls from the tennis courts at the City Hall. Should that activity have to stop at 10 ')'clock? There are lights on some of the City Hall fields plus there is talk of installing lights at Sunshine Park. Why should the City make that investment if the games must stop at 10 o'clock? He works at Pov's Sports Bar on behalf of the Andover Lions. Mr. Young called one night to talk to Mr. Povlitzki at 10:35 to complain about the noise. Mr. Povlitzki said there wasn't any noise and asked if he wanted to talk to the mayor. The comment was made that he was just sloshing beer with him. The Mayor stated Mr. Young doesn't know him very well, because he has not had a drink in the last 12 years. Mayor McKelvey stated he knows that the games are done at 10:30. One woman calls about the lights regularly. Sometimes the lights are inadvertently left on past the end of the games, and he often reminds Mr. Povlitzki to get them turned off He'd like to see a change in the Noise Ordinance to 10:30 rather than making an exception for sporting events. In many cities, the ball fields are closer to residential areas. He'd like Staff to check with other cities to determine what times they have in their Noise Ordinances. He's been in Mr. Young's neighborhood and heard more profanity from the neighborhood than from Pov's. The outdoor concert was approved by the City in conjunction with Andover Days. Commissioner Wells stated they lived near the ball fields in Champlin and moved to Andover because of the noise. Commissioner Bany stated she called several cities today. Several require a Special Use Permit for softball tournaments on weekends. They have noise ordinances for weekdays and weekends with two different times for commercial and residential areas. In some cas~s the lights on the fields came into play. The Cities generally had a noise ordinance for 10:30 on week days and 12 or I o'clock on weekends. She takes her family to Pov's and has never heard any profanity. They watch the softball games from 6 until they are over both during the week days and on weekends, several times a week. She has never seen lights on after the games are done. She felt the Commission might consider a time \ " ) u " Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 25, 1997 Page 11 , .' (Discussion - Noise Ordinance/Pol' 's Sports Bar, Continued) that is reasonable across the board, but then look beyond that for spaces like the Field of Dreams which may have lights. Mayor McKelvey suggested Staff check with the City of Blaine, as the last game at their sports bar generally begins at 9:45. Many times the youth games at Sand Creek begin at 10 or 11 o'clock. He didn't think many cities have a 10 o'clock noise ordinance, especially for sports. Barb Drabant 13753 Partridge - stated her back yard is across the swamp from Pov's. She has no intent of putting it out of business, as she does patronize it. She has said there is foul language. If it is not allowed at the games, possibly it is coming from the parking lot; but it does come into her home and she doesn't appreciate it. She is also the person who calls about the lights, though she's never called the Sheriff She calls Pov's, and they turn off the lights. It is not a big issue, but she does care about the implication that it is a special interest group. She didn't feel she is part of a special interest group; just a resident who lives in the area. She doesn't want Pov's to stop the games, nor does she have a problem with the business; but she wants them to stop at 10:30 so she can go to bed. ., ) Cindy Barker ? Partridge -. stated a lot of residents didn't know that the bar was going to be constructed there because the City owns the property between them and the bar. She is a special interest group because her interest is for her and her family. They were never able to give their opinion or know the exact location of the business. There is a chronic noise problem and there is swearing. She called the police twice on one occasion, though :t was not this year. She has to run her air conditioner at night because the noise is so loud. She can hear all the jokes and laughing just like it is outside of her bedroom window. The children hear it. There was one incident where it went on until 11:40 p.rn. They like to turn the lights on when it is snowing because it looks so pretty; but the lights are like sunshine in the windows, so she keeps her drapes closed all the time. Fridays and Saturdays are also problems. There are others in the neighborhood who feel the same way but were unable to attend this evening. Steve Harrison sports coordinator at Pav's the last two years - stated many balls go over the fence at night, and he goes behind the fence to retrieve them. While behind the fence, he rarely hears any noise. He's even almost gotten hit by balls because he doesn't hear them being hit by the batter. If there is swearing or profanity, he would be the one to call. That is one of the main rules that the umpires enforce, and a player can be kicked out of the park and even out of the softball league for the use of profanity. It is hard for him to believe the noise travels that far and in that direction. Normally the noise goes in the direction of the wind, and the wind normally blows from the northwest. There are several umpires present this evening; and many more would have been here, but he didn't know about this meeting until 2 o'clock this afternoon. .1 Steve Pease Resident of Andover and an umpire - stated he and his children play ball. He drives up to Pov's for the two late games, 8:15 and 9:20. He rarely hears a sound coming out of that complex while walking up to it. He also retrieves balls behind the fence, and it is very quiet. He lives within \ \.) ,~ \ , ./ Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 25, 1997 Page 12 (Discussion - Noise OrdinancelPov's Sports Bar, Continued) one-half mile of the place, and he doesn't see or hear it. He didn't understand how it can be a constant noise problem. He hears more car noises and sirens along Bunker Lake Boulevard than noise coming out of that complex. Parents at their children's games make more noise than what he hears at these games. All of the other complexes where he umpires or plays have smaller or no walls around them. He felt a 10 o'clock noise restriction is too early; possibly 10:30 may be a good compromise. ? umpire at Pov's - stated the procedure for profanity is a warning the first time. It happens occasionally. If it is repeated, the person is ejected from the game. There is zero tolerance for profanity. He ejected four people. It is a controlled situation at Pov's, even more so than most City parks; plus there is security. \ / Jerry? . Andover - has lived here for 5 years and has umpired at Pov's and throughout the state. He has never gotten done before 10:30 on night games. It is impossible to start the games before 6 o'clock because people work until 5 or 5:30. Many of the first games are forfeited because people don't get there in time. He lives by the railroad tracks, which has considerably more noise from the trains, often past 10 or II o'clock. If there is profanity, the player is automatically rejected from the game. Swearing absolutely is not tolerated. A minor offense is an automatic out. A second offense, two outs. A third offense. the player is ejected from the game. For major swearing, it is an automatic ejection from the ball park. If the person doesn't leave, the entire team is ejected from the park. The games are done between 10:25 and 10:35. There are no overtimes; those games just end up in a tie. Commissioner Wells again felt the Commission should revisit Andover's Noise Ordinance. There should be a difference between week days and weekends. Possibly look at requiring a Special Use Permit for weekend sporting events. Commissioner Wells stated the fact that 75 residents were willing to sign a petition indicates there is a problem. They all pay taxes and lived there before Pov's. It is different than the gentleman who purchased a house next to the railroad tracks knowing that there will be noise from it. The discussion continued between the Commissioners and various members of the audience. Mr. Carlberg noted the City did not offer any TIF incentives for Mr. Povlitzki. There were residents at the public hearing for the Special Use Permit who had a concern with the noise. They were told about the Noise Ordinance. Mr. Povlitzki stated he needed to operate to 10:30, but the City did not waive the ordinance. Commissioner Ape! felt the City had an obligation to mitigate the differences between the two groups. The Commission asked the Staff to provide the historical data on where the hours of 10 p.m. to 7 a.m. came from and the hours of operation in other communities, specifically relative to recreational activities. Possibly the Park and Recreation Commission should be asked for input as to how they might envision the ordinance would impact their park activities. Mr. Carlberg stated they will do the research and bring it back to the next meeting. If the Commission wishes to recommend an amendment to the ordinance, a public hearing will be scheduled. \, \ \ -----J / \ Regular Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 25, 1997 Page 13 " OTHER BUSINESS Mr. Hinzman reviewed the actions of the City Council at the November 18 meeting. He also noted that terms of Commissioners Jay Squires and Maynard Apel expire December 31. They must submit a written request asking to be reappointed if they so desire. Motion by Barry, Seconded by Wells, to adjourn. Motion carried on a 5-Yes, 2-Absent (Luedtke, Squires) vote. The meeting adjourned at 10:21 p.m. Respectfully submitted, '\'Y\~ ~L Marcella a. Peach Recording Secretary , j