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HomeMy WebLinkAboutSeptember 28, 1999 o () o o o CITY of ANDOVER. 'LANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING - SEPTEMBER 28,1999 MINUTES The Regular Bi-Monthly Meeting of the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission was called to order by Chairperson Jay Squires on September 28, 1999, 7:00 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners present: Maynard Apel, Larry Dalien, Dean Daninger, Douglas Falk, Mark Hedin, Bev Jovanovich, and Jay Squires. None City Planner, John Hinzman Zoning Administrator, Jeff Johnson Planning Intern, Megan Barnett Assistant City Engineer, Todd Haas Others Commissioners absent: Also present: APPROVAL OF MINUTES. September 14, 1999 Motion by Hedin, seconded by Falk, the Minutes be approved as submitted. Motion carried on a 7- ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. PUBLIC HEARING, Continued: SPECIAL USE PERMIT (SUP 99-15) -ANTENNA IN EXCESS OF 35 FEET IN HEIGHT - 31xx SOUTH COON CREEK DRIVE NW - US WEST WIRELESS, LLC. Zoning Administrator Jeff Johnson stated the Planning and Zoning Commission is requested to accept the withdrawal of the Special Use Permit application for US West Wireless, Inc., to construct a wireless telecommunications facility on the property located at 31XX South Coon Creek Drive. A survey indicated that this site was located in a flood plain. US West Wireless, Inc is in the process of submitting a Special Use Permit application to construct the tower approximately 100 feet to the west of the previous site that was selected. He stated staff anticipates this item will be brought forward to the Planning' and Zoning Commission for consideration at the October 12, 1999 Planning and Zoning Commission meeting for a public hearing. / '\ / \ \ I ; \ / " () () Regular Andover Planningund Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 2 \ -.J Motion by Falk, seconded by Hedin, to Accept the Withdrawal of the Application For a Special Use Permit for US West Wireless, Inc. to Construct a Telecommunications Facility On the Property Located at 31XX South Coon Creek Drive. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. PUBLIC HEARING: AMEND ORDINANCE 109 - SNOWMOBILES. Zoning Administrator Jeff Johnson stated the Planning and Zoning Commission is asked to hold a public hearing to discuss Ordinance No. 109 - Snowmobiles. At the September 7, 1999 City Council meeting, the City Council authorized a public hearing for residents to comment on whether snowmobiling should be restricted in the southern part ofthe City. Mr. Johnson provided the Commission with a copy of Ordinance No.1 09 for their review. He stated the Snowmobile Task Force Committee met on August 19, 1999 to review the ordinance and to discuss enforcement issues in the City. He commented that the six members appointed to this committee were split on their decision to restrict snowmobiling in the southern part of the City. / \ ,-.J Mr. Johnson stated staff was seeking a recommendation from the Planning and Zoning Commission regarding whether or not to restrict snowmobiling in the southern part of the City. He noted staff has conducted research at the request of the City Council, and has contacted approximately fifteen (15) Metropolitan urban communities, third string suburbs, that are experiencing growth, for their research area. He stated two of the communities in the western suburbs ban snowmobiling, and the remaining cities allow snowmobiling with some restrictions in the cities. Mr. Johnson stated Todd Haas, Assistant City Engineer and member of the Snowmobile Task Force, was present to address any questions the Commission or residents may have in regard to this issue. He stated Sergeant Longbin with the Anoka County Sheriffs Department was also present and was familiar with the enforcement issues. Commissioner Hedin asked how the Snowmobile Task Force was split. Mr. Haas stated two individuals representing the concerned citizen's group, Caroline Fisher and Wayne Ness as well as a member of the Anoka County Sheriffs Department recommended restricting snowmobiles south of 161'1 Avenue, which would be easier for them from an enforcement standpoint. Commissioner Apel explained Wayne Ness, Caroline Fisher and Sergeant Shelly Kazimer were in favor of restricting snowmobiles, or at minimum, establishing a boundary. He stated he, Mayor McKelvey, and Scott Johnson, a member of the Andover Sno-Dragons Snowmobile Club, recommended no changes to the current ordinance. Commissioner Daninger asked if the issue before the Planning and Zoning Commission was to 'I consider a ban on snowmobiles south of 161 51 Avenue. j ) 0 Regular Andover Planniniand Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 3 '. , ) Mr. Haas stated designating this area restricted to snowmobiles was simply a suggestion. Commissioner Apel agreed, adding if a boundary line was to be established, it would be another issue, however, the present consideration is to determine if there is consensus for drawing a line. He commented Mayor McKelvey had indicated that most of the violations occurred north of l6l't Avenue, therefore, designating the area to the south would probably not resolve all the problems. Commissioner Hedin inquired if the snowmobile traffic generated in Andover by residents of other cities had been brought forward during the Task Force Committee meeting. Commissioner Apel stated there was discussion regarding this, and there were likely a fair amount of snowmobilers entering Andover from Coon Rapids, at the south end of the City. Commissioner Hedin inquired regarding the restrictions on snowmobiles in the City of Coon Rapids. Mr. Haas stated snowmobiles were not permitted on the city streets or right-of-ways in Coon Rapids. Commissioner Apel advised snowmobiles were banned entirely in Coon Rapids. :) Commissioner Hedin inquired regarding the snowmobile restrictions in the city of Blaine. Mr. Haas stated there is a boundary, which separates the city between north and south at Highway 65. He explained that snowmobiles are permitted east of Highway 65, and prohibited west of Highway 65. Commissioner Hedin noted that the cities of Coon Rapids and Blaine, although in closest proximity to the City of Andover, were not included in staffs survey. Motion by Dalien, seconded by Jovanovich, to open the public hearing at 7:10 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, a-nays, a-absent vote. Chair Squires advised that the issue presently under consideration by the Planning and Zoning Commission was whether or not it would be appropriate to recommend changes to the City's Snowmobile Ordinance which would impact or potentially limit the ability to operate snowmobiles within all or a portion of the City. Ron Sherman, 14560 Drake Street, stated he has been a resident of Andover for 16 years, and has been a snowmobiler all of that time. He stated he obeyed the laws, as 99 percent of the snowmobilers within the City do, and travels the speed limit to the outer part of town to connect to the trails in the adjoining towns. He commented he thought it a shame that some of the snowmobilers do not obey the laws. Mr. Sherman indicated he had recently assisted the Andover Sno-Dragons Snowmobile Club in their efforts to find alternatives to restricting snowmobiles, such as arterial trails exiting the town. He noted the concern he most expressed is that snowmobiles are damaging the streets and asphalt trails, \. however, he had examined the streets and trails in the City, and with one exception, which appeared , ) ) 0 Regular Andover Plannin}und Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 4 , '\ '- j to have occurred over a year ago, he did not find any street damage. He added that the prior year, he did not see any lawn damage as a result of snowmobiles, and for the most part, he saw people attempting to obey the laws. Mr. Sherman stated he would not like to see snowmobiling, which is abused by a minority, be taken away from the majority of the people, who attempt to do their best, and enjoy the sport. He remarked it was easy to draw a boundary line a little further into the City, drive to that point, park, and go. He pointed out, however it was easier to take a walk from your house, rather than drive five or six miles, park your vehicle, and then go for a walk with your wife and family. He added people are boxed up in their houses during the wintertime, and are looking for something to do. He noted the proposal to restrict snowmobiles south of l6l't Avenue would make this more difficult, in that these residents would have to drive to a specific location and leave their vehicles, which can result in the potential damage and theft of vehicles and trailers. He stated he was strongly opposed to changing the current laws, and was willing to work with the City and the Snowmobile Club to help in any way that he could. , "- ,-..J Doug Brown, 401 l66th Avenue NW, President of the Andover Sno-Dragons Snowmobile Club provided the Commission with a list of data compiled by Pete Forsyth, and collected from 25 cities' Police Departments. He commented the city of Plymouth provides a copy of the city's Snowmobile Ordinance to each resident who owns a snowmobile. Mr. Brown stated the present proposal to prohibit snowmobiles in the southern portion of the City of Andover was not a perfect solution. He noted they had attempted for four or five years to obtain a trail system, and this has never moved forward. He explained, at one time, they were authorized by the Department of Transportation to proceed with approximately two miles of trail along Hanson Boulevard, and had obtained all of the appropriate signage, however, the City had not provided authorization to proceed. He stated the City of Plymouth has trails, and imposes restrictions on the use of snowmobiles, such as specific hours of operation, and if this is what is called for, this is what should be done. He added, however, abolishing the sport in a portion of the City, and another portion in the future, was not the solution. Mr. Brown stated he lived north of l6l't Avenue, and the present proposal would not substantially impact him, however, the line was five blocks south of his home, and that was why he was present. He agreed that some lawn damage appears when the snow is melted, however, this is not noticeable in June when the grass comes back. Mr. Brown provided the Commission with Andover Sno-Dragon's book of snowmobile related complaints, which are monitored by volunteers. He commented that some of the material contained therein pertains to requests for safety education, as the club provides safety training for 50 to 60 students every year at the Oak View School, and some material pertains to incidents occurring both north and south of 161 ,t Avenue. He stated this information does somewhat concur with Mayor " ) Regular Andover Plannin~':~d Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 5 , i " j McKelvey's statement regarding the majority of complaints within the northern portion of the City, however, he did not think they had received every complaint. Mr. Brown stated many of the residents of Andover had come to area to get away from the regulations of the larger cities. He commented he did not operate his snowmobile when there was no snow on the ground, and this was true of most snowmobilers. He stated he was not completely aware of the history of the Andover Sno-Dragons Snowmobile Club, however, they had organized at the request of the City Council, in an effort to control snowmobiles within the City. He noted they have constructed snow fence and put up caution tape for different residences. He stated he would not like to see the sport banned anywhere in the City, and he would be willing to work on different restrictions, however, he believed the construction of a trail system would solve many of the problems that currently exist. Chair Squires noted the survey indicated that all of the cities permitted the use of studs. Mr. Brown stated this was correct. , \ ) Chair Squires inquired if the City's Ordinance addresses the use of studs. Mr. Haas stated the City Ordinance does not restrict the use of studs, however, they are restricted on paved trails pursuant to State statutes. The City Ordinance does not allow any snowmobiles, studded or not, on any of the City's trail system, whether class five or bituminous, or any sidewalks. Mr. Sherman commented that not all snowmobiles utilize studs, which provide for greater traction and easier stopping, and there was a difference between sitting on a street, and spinning the tracks of a snowmobile, which may cause some damage. He advised that simply having studs does not indicate the operator is attempting to damage the streets. Commissioner Jovanovich inquired if there were currently any restrictions pertaining to driving snowmobiles on City streets. Mr. Haas stated as the Ordinance is written, snowmobiles are allowed to drive on the very right hand portion of the roadway, next to the curb, and if there is no curb, then the shoulder of the roadway, or in a grassy area. Snowmobiles are permitted on the boulevard of County roads, or in the ditch, however, not in the roadway anywhere. Commissioner Jovanovich inquired if other communities restricted snowmobiles in their city streets. Mr. Brown stated he was uncertain regarding the specific restrictions, however, they are reflected in the cities' respective ordinances. Mr. Haas added that snowmobiles are allowed on the City streets of Andover to provide they can access the County roads and trail system. Commissioner Falk inquired regarding the location of the trail system within the City of Andover. Mr. Brown stated at one time, the trail system intersected at Crosstown and Round Lake Boulevard, and ran through Kelsey Park, however, it currently runs from Round Lake Boulevards to Crosstown Boulevard, then stops. He explained they were not able to construct a bridge at the intersection, as \ ,-..J Regular Andover Planninj~~d Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 6 i " / the Parks and Recreation Commission was constructing a trail in that location, however, he did not understand why they could not co-exist. Pete Forsyth, 2140 175th Lane stated that during the collection of data for the list which was provided to the Commission, he had asked whether or not the cities allow snowmobiling, and if they imposed any restrictions. He stated the research indicates most of the cities do have some restrictions. He indicated his chief concern with regard to this issue was the possible banning of studs or traction control products, which he believed, could subject the City of Andover to great liabilities in regard to safety. He requested the Commission seriously consider this issue. Mr. Forsyth commented he was very impressed with the city of Plymouth, in terms of its Snowmobile Ordinance, adding that it appears their Council works with the people, rather than against them. He stated he lived quite a distance north of the proposed boundary line, however, he was concerned that the line would continue to be extended further northward every year. , , ,_ J Willis Langfeld, 2207 161 st Avenue NW, stated he has lived in the City for 25 years. He commented that as the years have passed, the snowmobile traffic has become worse. He stated he had constructed a new development the prior year, with asphalt streets and driveways. He requested the Commission examine the areas of the asphalt, which have been damaged by snowmobile studs. He noted this did not only affect the asphalt, but also the new seeding he had planted, regardless of the signs he posted, which were quite expensive. He remarked that the signs themselves were run over. He stated he had confronted the snowmobilers who had done this damage, and they had expressed a lack of concern, therefore, he put up caution tape to attempt to protect the seeding, and again, the snowmobilers drove right through it. He stated his new seeding never came up in the spring, and he had to re-sod, which was very expensive. Mr. Langfeld stated he was aware of the cost to the homeowner in terms of the damage the studs cause to the roads, and, in his opinion, snowmobiles should be banned completely. Mr. Langfell commented that during the survey of his property, he had found that all of the survey stakes had been broken off, and again, confronted the snowmobilers, via their license plate numbers, however, they did not acknowledge they had done this damage. He reiterated he would like to see snowmobiles banned in Andover, as they cause much damage. Jeff Williams, 3300 154th Lane, stated he lived right off of Round Lake Boulevard, and had only lived in the area for a couple of years. He stated he would like a brief review of how this issue had come to the point of considering a ban. He inquired if there were many similar complaints from the residents who live along the thorough ways, and inquired if it was possible to consider other governmental funding of the trails. He reiterated he was not fully aware of the entire history of the City's snowmobile issue. \ ) Regular Andover PlanninfJd Zoning Commission Meeting () Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 7 \ ~~ / Mr. Williams commented he and his family had moved to Andover two years ago from Mounds View. He stated they enjoyed living in Mounds View, however, they had wanted more freedom, and were very impressed with the school system in Andover, and had many other reasons to stay in the area for many years. He remarked that he would advise against impeding the freedoms in the area with more regulations, unless it is truly necessary to do so. He stated he did not know if this was possible, however, inquired if it might be possible to conduct impact studies, and research the possibility of building trails. He added that he would be glad to devote his time to this type of research, which would appear to make more sense than to impose rules, which might be arbitrary. He commented it did not appear that there had been much objective analysis of the issue. Commissioner Apel stated Mr. Williams was entitled to his perceptions, and this depends upon whether you are a landowner who is being abused, or whether you are a snowmobiler who enjoys the sport of snowmobiling. He stated there was a different perception on behalf of both parties. Mr. Williams stated he was in both of these categories. Commissioner Apel stated this particular problem has been with the City for 15 years, and it is discussed every year, during which time, the same basic issues are brought forward. He stated the landowners want snowmobiles banned and the snowmobilers want their sport. He stated the conflict of land use, between the owners of land and those who use it, would not disappear, whether in regard to snowmobiling, hunting, or the like. / \ ,_.) Mr. Williams inquired how other communities resolve these issues. Commissioner Apel stated when they are pushed into a corner they generally institute a ban. He stated the City of Andover has not banned the sport at this point, and he was hoping they would not have to, however, that is the conflict that remains, and it will probably eventually be addressed through prohibition. He explained that as communities develop and concentrate their population, they restrict. He stated he did not like this, however, the purpose of government was to restrict those freedoms, if they believe it is better for the whole. He added, in regard to snowmobiles, it would be impossible to make all concerned parties happy, however, there had been much time and thought devoted to this issue, as well as to the funding oftrails. Mr. Williams stated he attempted to find information pertaining to this issue, however, he had not been able to. Commissioner Apel referred Mr. Williams to the minutes of the pertinent meetings. Mr. Williams inquired if an impact study could be performed. Commissioner Apel stated a thorough analysis of the issue has been made, and unless there is some major source of funding that will provide the money to construct trails, this is not a viable possibility. He added that even ifthere was funding available, there are additional conflicts with regard to the Department of Natural Resources, Department ofFish and Wildlife, and Anoka County, and it is not an easy situation to resolve. Mr. Williams stated this appeared to be a somewhat subjective position. Chair Squires stated it might not be possible to deal with a situation like this in a completely objective fashion. He explained that \ '-J r) U Regular Andover Planning-und Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 8 , , "-_/ some problems do not lend themselves well to a solution that is only objective in nature. Mr. Williams stated he could see this point, and could agree with it. Dave Blackstad, Chair of the Parks and Recreation Commission stated that body was recommending the City move forward with the Sheriffs ban to prohibit snowmobiles south of 161'1 Avenue. He stated they had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on the trails along Hanson Boulevard, and Kelsey and Round Lake Park, and snowmobiles cause damage to the trails. He commented that the residents have paid for those trails, and inquired why a few should ruin them. Mr. Blackstad stated the current Snowmobile Ordinance with the "no fly" zone on Round Lake Boulevard, is not working. He remarked that the last two winters, the City looked like a "war zone" with the tape and barricades on some of the main County roads, City streets, and in attempts to prevent snowmobilers from going up into people's driveways. He stated this saddened him. He advised that if the Sno-Dragons or snowmobilers in general, had listened to and abided by the rules. and regulations, the current discussion would not be necessary. He stated it was a few snowmobilers who had ruined it for the entire group, and someday, they will be looking at a complete ban throughout the City. He added if the City bans snowmobiling south of 161'1 Avenue, and the snowmobilers don't adhere to those regulations, that day would come sooner. \._J Chair Squires asked if the Parks and Recreation Commission has observed or compiled information regarding the damage caused by snowmobiles that has occurred to date. Mr. Blackstad stated a very good example was within the parking lot of the Oak View School, which occurred during the first year they opened up the trails. He explained the trail located at the parking lot entrance is quite damaged. He noted they see more damage from the carbide wear rods on the sleds, than from the studs. He explained that the wear rods have dug into the curves along Hanson Boulevard, and have grooved the trails. He advised that this damage, in addition to the freeze and frost present in Minnesota, reduce the lifespan of the trails. He noted they had posted "no snowmobiling" signs on the trails, and he had personally stopped three snowmobilers the prior year, who were driving right down the paved trail along Hanson Boulevard. He explained that all the signs and postings, if not adhered to are meaningless. Mr. Blackstead agreed it is a few people who are spoiling for the rest of the snowmobilers. He inquired, however, how much damage must they do, before the City stops them, and how many more barricades will have to go up on the County roads. He remarked that snowmobiles were not permitted on Round Lake Boulevard south of Coon Creek, however, they drive there consistently. Rick Ericson, 15017 Bluebird Street, inquired what attempts have been made to determine what other cities, more urbanized than the City of Andover, have done to prevent damage to their trails and allow the sport to continue. He stated the cities of Brooklyn Park, Champlin, Maple Grove, and Osseo all permit snowmobiling within their cities. \ , , Regular Andover PlanninJJd Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 9 j Mr. Ericson commented he has been a member of the Andover Sno-Dragons organization for five years, and has served on the Task Force as well. He noted it appeared the City has not taken any responsibility to determine what can be done to continue snowmobiling. He explained that when it appeared the City was going to ban the sport, they requested the snowmobile club to research alternatives. He requested rather than putting the sole responsibility on the snowmobile club, they work together to see what could be done to allow snowmobiling to continue. Mr. Ericson commented he lived across from City Hall, and every year, young people drive through the neighborhood yards with their cars, knocking down shrubs and trees, and ruining their lawns. He inquired if they were going to ban teenagers from driving cars. He added that no matter what the consideration, there is always going to be some problem, and there are a few "bad apples" in every group, however, this should not result in a ban that would affect the entire group of 1,400 registered snowmobilers in Andover. He stated the Sno-Dragons Club and Mayor McKelvey, who has been a very active supporter of the snowmobilers, were willing to attempt to find other solutions. Mr. Ericson commented that Round Lake Boulevard utilizes a very clear boundary, which prohibits snowmobiling, yet this has not stopped the problem, and he doubted that drawing the line at 161" Avenue would stop the problem either, and would ultimately result in additional problems. He inquired what the City has done to encourage the assistance and cooperation of all concerned. " / Mr. Ericson stated he had served on the Snowmobile Task Force for two years. He commented that a member of the Task Force was resident who lived on Round Lake Boulevard, who was not in favor of snowmobiling, and the lines were drawn at that level. He stated there had not been enough effort to determine if anything can be done to allow snowmobiling to continue. Mayor McKelvey stated he has never been on a snowmobile in his life. He remarked he had nothing against snowmobiles, however, he had never ridden on one. He commented the City of Andover, over the 15 years this issue has been present, has "dropped the ball" in terns of setting up any trails for the City of Andover. He noted that he had attempted to work with the snowmobile club during the last few years, in this regard. Mayor McKelvey advised that the City Ordinance indicates snowmobilers may ride along the side of the road to get to the trails, from any neighborhood. He suggested they institute a restrictive speed limit, construct trails, and let the sport continue. He clarified if the City had spent one-tenth the money it has put towards walking and running trails over the years, on snowmobile trails they would have one of the best trail systems in the State. He explained, however, this is not the case, and the City has never taken the initiative to do this. He pointed out that some cities have done this, and have provided trails which can be accessed from the neighborhoods, and restricted the speed limit to 10 miles per hour to those trails. \ I / Mayor McKelvey noted over the last couple of years, there has been tape along old Crosstown Boulevard towards the Total Mart store, and he had suggested the City allow snowmobilers to ride r) U Regular Andover Plannin~ und Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 10 through the swamp on the opposite side, to prevent them having to go through the resident's yards. He stated he has been informed this is City property, and therefore, the snowmobilers can not ride upon it. He stated the snowmobilers have no way to get to Crosstown Boulevard, except to go across those people's yards, and the tapes and barricades utilized by the residents in that area made it appear like a warzone. He pointed out it would have been just a simple to allow the snowmobilers to ride along the other side, on the City's property, and not infringe upon the residents. Mayor McKelvey stated the City has not taken any initiative to make trails safe, and to put restrictions on travelling to those trails. He commented, if this was done, there could be enforcement within the neighborhoods and the snowmobilers could still get out and go to the trails. He inquired why they should take the pleasure of snowmobiling away from the 1,400 people who own snowmobiles in the City of Andover. Mayor McKelvey requested the Commission drive through the side streets of the developments in the city of Coon Rapids, on any afternoon. He explained he had driven school bus through this area every day, and he was aware, that every day snowmobiles zip up and down their streets, however, the sport is banned in Coon Rapids. He added that snowmobiles have been banned from Round Lake Boulevard, and yet they are still there. He pointed out that banning them south of 161 st Avenue would not keep them from operating in this location either. / \ _.J Mayor McKelvey stated they should work with the snowmobilers, provide some trails, and enforce the restrictions, which would allow everyone the opportunity to enjoy the sport they like. He inquired why the person who wants to run along the blacktop trail across the lake be able to do so summer and winter, because they keep it plowed, and yet the snowmobiler, who spends much more on his sport, is prohibited. He did not see a reason for this, when they could work together to find a solution. Mayor McKelvey stated many snowmobilers load their sleds onto a trailer and take them up north, however, there are times when relatives visit, and a child wants to go for a snowmobile ride. He stated a child would not care if he was travelling five or fifty miles an hour, he would simply be happy to ride on a snowmobile. He advised that there should be restrictions in the busier areas, however, he could not see completely banning the sport. He added that banning it to 161't Avenue would just mean the person who lives south of that line, would have to go a lot faster on his snowmobile to get to 161't Avenue before a squad car sees him. He stated the Commission was aware that this happens, and he had seen this himself, in the cities that have banned snowmobiles. He explained that banning snowmobiles would not make the sport go away. Mayor McKelvey stated he had almost had the trails set up to travel all the way across town to Hanson Boulevard, however, the Parks and Recreation Commission decided this might make a good walking trail and constructed that instead. He commented the snowmobilers thereby lost the opportunity for a trail that would travel east and west. He believed they could construct a trail across Hanson Boulevard before that area is further developed. } Regular Andover Plannini u~d Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 11 '\ , ) Mayor McKelvey stated he engendered the assistance of the Snowmobile Task Force because he believed things could be done to establish trails, and keep the sport active in Andover, as well as keeping the snowmobiles off of the residents' yards. He reiterated the City should allow snowmobiles to ride on City property, which would prevent the need for tapes and barricades. He noted that with the exception of two residents, who expressed complaints with nearly every snowfall, the majority of calls he received concerning snowmobile violations occurred north of 161'1 Avenue. He commented the City has been developed to the point that it is necessary to place restrictions on how snowmobiles are allowed to operate in the southern portion of the City, however, not to ban them completely. He added he would not like to see an entire sport banned without at least attempting cooperate to solve the problem. Derrick Souser, 2711 176th Avenue stated he had moved to Andover one year ago, and was a snowmobiler. He commented one of the reasons he moved to Andover was because he could come home from work, get on his snowmobile, get in the ditch and go for a nice ride with his son. He agreed there had to be some restrictions on the snowmobiles riding in the southern part of the City, however, he did not believe they should be banned. He stated they should attempt to work together to see if they can find a solution. / , ,-.-J Mr. Souser agreed the tape and barricades on Round Lake Boulevard were unsightly. He stated they should be allowed to ride on the City property. He commented he had been a snowmobiler for 25 years, and after moving to Andover, he realized there were really no trails, although the area is primarily comprised of open property. He stated it would be nice to be able to connect to trails by which they could ride to Duluth or Wisconsin. Mr. Souser stated he had lived in the city of Plymouth, and most recently in New Hope. He commented that snowmobiling was permitted in Plymouth, Medina, and other cities, but with restrictions. He stated he did not believe they should ban the entire sport because of a few "bad apples," and requested they work together to attempt to determine an acceptable alternative. Terry Shaw, 4191 1 520d Avenue, stated he lived in the area in which snowmobiles would be banned. He commented he had lived in this area for 15 years, and has been a snowmobiler for 35 years. He stated this was not a crowded area, comprised of approximately 2.5 acres, and in the 15 years he has lived there, he has only occasionally seen a snowmobile track across someone's yard, and does not perceive this to be a major problem. Mr. Shaw requested the Commission drive through his neighborhood. He stated all of his neighbors have a snowmobile in their garage, and he could not understand why there were not more people present. He stated there were no trails out of the City, and the Chair of the Parks and Recreation Commission had indicated they were spending thousands of dollars on trails. He inquired why they could not apply a small amount of this money to a snowmobile trail, which would assist in resolving 'i j Regular Andover Plannink)d Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 12 , '\ ,j the current problems. He stated in all of the years he has been a snowmobiler, he has never knowingly done damage to anything, nor has anyone he knows. Phil Johnson, resident of Coon Rapids, stated he sat on the Board of Directors for the Andover Sno- Dragons, and was employed by Bituminous Roadways, the company that constructed the parking lot next to the City Hall. He noted conflicting ideas regarding traction products, studs, and carbide runners causing damage to the asphalt. He explained the sleds that cause skid marks in the pavement utilize studs an eighth of an inch long, which hang over the rubber tread on the track, however, the minimum amount of asphalt he has ever seen placed on any trail within the entire seven county Metropolitan area, has been two inches in depth. He added the carbide runners are between an eighth to a quarter inch of carbide. He commented he was concerned whenever he had to cross a gravel road with his sleds, and he owns six of them. He stated he did not believe a person who owns a snowmobile and has to maintain it and would spend up to $110 for his sled for safety reasons, and then risk damaging it. He stated his wife would not ride a snowmobile without carbide studs, and she is certainly not a "hotrodder." He commented that he, his wife, and all of his sons ride snowmobiles, and they have lived in the area since 1962. He stated he had seen snowmobiling come and go in Coon Rapids. He added he lived on Foley and Highway 10 in Coon Rapids, and was aware that people snowmobile in the ditches there as well, and that the problem was not going to go away. / \ 'J Mr. Johnson stated the reason he had gotten involved with the Sno-Dragons in Andover was because it was close to his home in Coon Rapids, he could trailer his sleds, drop them off at a larger parking lot, and then ride around the different areas in the City. He thought the City would want to work with the snowmobilers. He stated there was no one with a snowmobile that wanted to ride on an asphalt trail, as it damages the sled, and can lead to costly repairs. He stated the City would seal-coat their streets, which should be done every year, unless they are two years old and require seal coating every five to seven years. He explained the studs could only cause up to a quarter of an inch gouge anywhere. Mr. Johnson stated there was minimal snow coverage during the past three years, however, in a year with good snow cover, the problems with the grass and the asphalt would not occur. He commented he had ridden on the Snow Patrol, worked with the Sheriffs Department over the past three years, and had taken the complaint book home with him and answered some of the calls personally, because he wanted to see the sport continue in Andover. He stated he would not like to see it further restricted. He stated they could work together to resolve the issues. Doug Carlos, 4250 152nd Avenue NW, from Duluth, by way of Brooklyn Park, both cities in which snowmobiles were permitted everywhere, with many restrictions. He commented that if the rules and restrictions are enforced, the problems will decrease. Mr. Carlos stated he had only lived in Andover for a year, having moved from Brooklyn Park, where '\ the snowmobiling was great. He thought it would be even better upon moving further north, and it ,_.J ) () Regular Andover PlanninJ,md Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 13 \ , ./ had been the previous year, however, it appears it will soon become worse. He stated if the line is drawn as indicated, his property will be affected, and this is discouraging because his entire family enjoys the sport. He commented that he does the majority of his snowmobiling in the northern part of the State, however, around the holidays, it was very nice to be able to take his relatives out for a ride. Mr. Carlos advised that drawing a line at 161" Avenue would not stop the problem. He thought they needed more enforcement, and work together to resolve the problems. He added, with enforcement in the areas where the problem occurs, sooner or later, the "bad apples" would get the message, and if not, the penalties should be severe. He stated the repeat offenders were the ones that were hurting the sport. Chair Squires requested Sergeant Longbin of the Anoka County Sheriffs Department provide a brief overview of the nature of the problems that, as an enforcement agency they have seen, and what the position of the Sheriffs Department is. F '\ ,-.J Sergeant Longbin, Anoka County Sheriffs Department clarified that the Sheriffs Department does not make a ban, they simply enforce the rules that are in place. He stated he had seen many things from underage people operating snowmobiles, riding over yards, running over trees and grass, drunk drivers on snowmobiles, noise complaints, and riding at 4:00 in the morning, to people actually being killed, and a problem does exist. He stated this was an emotional issue in the aspect of landowners versus snowmobilers. Sergeant Longbin stated he had supervised the Snow Patrol the prior year, and they had attempted to be creative with saturation patrols, and paying overtime to patrol at peak complaint times. He supervised the volunteers who dedicate their time to patrol at no cost, and they are going to continue that endeavor to be creative and to enforce the rules. Sergeant Longbin commented that a comparison of snowmobilers to teenagers driving cars was not a fair or logical. He stated there are rules against teenagers driving across yards, and they enforce those rules whenever they can, however, they can't be everywhere all of the time. He stated snowmobile restrictions were difficult to enforce from a car, therefore, they also utilize snowmobiles and all terrain vehicles for enforcement purposes. Chair Squires inquired if the Sheriffs Department had received snowmobile related complaints directly. Sergeant Longbin stated this was correct, through dispatch. He added that most people call the 911 operator. Chair Squires requested Sergeant Longbin provide an estimate of how many calls they receive in a typical time period during the snowmobile season. Sergeant Longbin stated the calls would be proportionate to the snowfall, and during a particularly heavy snowfall, they may receive 15 to 20 '\ calls in the City of Andover. , ./ ') (, Regular Andover PlanninJ ...nd Zoning Commission Meeting J Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 14 , '\ '__J Chair Squires noted discussion pertaining to the south half of the City, versus the north half, and dividing the designated snowmobile area at 161 5' Avenue. He requested Sergeant Longbin provide his perception of where the majority of problems occur, relative to that line. Sergeant Longbin stated his perception is that wherever they have restrictions, the majority of complaints will be received. He explained when there are restrictions, people are aware that rules are being broken, and therefore call to report this. Chair Squires inquired if Sergeant Longbin believed the Sheriffs Department would benefit by an area that completely prohibits snowmobiles. Sergeant Longbin stated he believed they would need restrictions, however, he was not certain that banning snowmobiles was the perfect answer. He advised there should be a balance, and they would probably have to create a designated area with restrictions, which could alleviate many of the problems. / \ ,.J Commissioner Dalien inquired if the designated area would be a roadway on which they are permitted to ride to travel from their areas to trails. Sergeant Longbin stated trails to connect to other trails would be helpful. He explained, as the City and community grows, snowmobiling will be squeezed out, however, if they have a trail, a resource to get to the areas where they want to snowmobile he thought that would be helpful. He stated he did not think the people of Andover wanted to ride their snowmobiles in their neighborhood, but would rather get to the trails so that they can go for a nice ride. Commissioner Dalien asked where the closest state trails were located. Sergeant Longbin stated the large corridor was proposed to be in Ham Lake, along Highway 65, heading north and east. He added that snowmobiling to Duluth was a possibility. He commented the last three years have been difficult, due to the minimal snowfall, and this may have somewhat magnified the problems. Commissioner Falk inquired if there were any trails from Ham Lake that stopped at Andover, by which the City could connect to the designated trails. Mr. Johnson stated there were trails at Highway 65, and County Road 22. Chair Squires inquired if these were State trails. Mr. Johnson stated they were. Commissioner Daninger inquired if the proposal to prohibit snowmobiles south of 161" Avenue would be easier for enforcement purposes. Sergeant Longbin stated it would. He explained he would not have to stop and consider whether or not a snowmobile was allowed to be in a specific place at a specific time. Pete Luslig, 2140 175th Lane, advised the state of Minnesota has overturned their ban on traction control products. He stated that if you currently utilize these devices on your snowmobile, you are '\ required to pay a $15 fee per season, and that money is available for the City of Andover and other , ) () () Regular Andover Plannin~ und Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 15 /- \ \.- / cities, to use for the repair of current damage to their trails. He stated there was presently five million dollars set aside for these purposes, and more coming daily, as people renew their licenses. Mr. Luslig provided the Commission with a copy of the study that overturned the ban in the State of Minnesota. for their review. He stated at present, and in certain situations, a snowmobile that utilizes traction control products can stop seven times faster than without. He stated these products also aid in steering and maneuvering. Mr. Langfell advised the State of Minnesota had outlawed studs on tires, because they cause damage to the roads. He stated this was also true of snowmobiles, and there was no question that they do damage to the roads. He stated the snowmobile problem continues to grow and worsen, and he believes they should make it easier for law enforcement to enforce the law. He stated that if they ban the snowmobiles from 161" Avenue, south, they are taking the responsibility from the residents in the southern portion of the City, and moving them to the north side. He reiterated that snowmobiles should be banned completely. . " -oJ Mr. Luslig stated he had attended the Snowmobile Task Force was meeting, and had asked, in light of the wide boulevards, why they could not construct a trail along Hanson Boulevard. He was informed that the Sheriffs Department had indicated they could not do this, because you can't ride on the opposite side of the street after dark, and do not allow one-way traffic. He explained that this is done in other cities, however, no one has researched this. He stated the following day he contacted the DNR, the DOT, Public Works Department, and the Traffic Engineer, who indicated they have done this in the County, in areas that permitted one-way traffic on the road. He stated some things have not been done in cooperation with the various organizations. Mr. Carlos stated one other matter, which merits consideration is the revenue generated by the sport for the gas stations, restaurants, and all of the local businesses. He stated many of the smaller communities such as the city of St. George, might not be able to remain open in the wintertime, if not for snowmobilers. Mr. Carlos commented that snowmobilers pay fifty dollars every three years to ride their snowmobiles, and inquired where all of that money goes. He stated this, as well as all of the revenue the sport generates, is what keeps all ofthe small businesses in operation. He added that the smaller towns in the northern part of the state might not exist at all, if it was not for the snowmobilers. Brent Schmidt, a resident of Coon Rapids, stated he heard much discussion regarding the asphalt trails and the damage snowmobiles can do, as well as the damage to the homeowner's property, and that this was a very valid concern. He commented the State should take as much money as they put into constructing the asphalt trails, and put in multi-use trails, perhaps comprised of crushed rock, which can be walked upon, and ridden upon with mountain bikes and snowmobiles. He explained /\, they could then take the money they save, to pour concrete, which is not damaged as easily as , -j , ) C) Regular Andover Plannin'g und Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 16 , .. \.- _/ asphalt, at the end of the driveways where snowmobiles cross. He stated this would solve two problems, in terms of the landowners who don't want damage, and the cost savings would be realized by not constructing asphalt trails all over the City. He stated a multi-use trail is a good solution for everybody's problems. Mr. Johnson stated at one time, there was enough money for twenty miles of trail, yet only two miles crossed private property. He stated since that time, the Snowmobile Club has returned half of the signs, and gave the refunded money to other clubs; however, they still have enough signs to make a trail system happen. He noted if this is a cost issue, they have the signs and the people, however, they need the City to provide some right-of-way through the City properties, and to develop a plan for the future. He stated he believed there was a mutual solution. Motion by Apel, seconded by Jovanovich, to close the public hearing at 8:21 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, a-nays, a-absent vote. ., ) Chair Squires stated he had received an anonymous letter, dated September 25, 1999, directed to the Andover City Council, supporting a total ban on snowmobiles in the City. He stated he had received a letter from L. B. Pressel, 14267 Round Lake Boulevard, dated September 21, 1999, recommending the City ban snowmobiling, "per their recommendation," which he believed referred to the southern half of the City. Chair Squires stated he also received a letter from Wayne Ness, 14268 Round Lake Boulevard NW, dated September 20, 1999, which indicates his support for a ban on snowmobiling. He provided these letters to the Commission and the members of the audience for review. Commissioner Apel referred the Commission to the third page, fourth paragraph of the staff report, which indicated several of the Snowmobile Task Force Committee's recommendations pertaining to improving the relationship between the landowners and the snowmobilers, and that these items merited consideration. Commissioner Apel stated any time a group must ban something, it is simply a surrender to abject failure. He believed that it would not reflect favorably on the Commission as a group, if they decided to ban snowmobiling, rather than resolve the basic problems. He stated he was not in favor of a ban. He advised if these recommendations were followed, in conjunction with the active pursuit of the situations and enforcement issues, they could attempt to provide the snowmobilers with a trail. He added if more enforcement money is required, they should see that it is made available. Commissioner Apel commented eight or ten years prior, the City had no trails, however, they had discussed trails for 16 or 17 years, and only in the last five years has it begun to come to fruition. He stated the City had concentrated primarily on hiking trails, thereby forgetting about other problems with regard to the snowmobiles, and in his opinion, this situation should be addressed. Commissioner Apel reiterated that banning snowmobiles, and giving up on the issue was not \ appropriate. He advised that a ban, south of 161 51 Avenue, would in his opinion, force the problems .' Regular Andover Plannin~Jd Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 17 ,_/ north, and a total ban in the City would force the problems into Oak Grove. He explained the City should take responsibility for their own problems, and not attempt to force them upon other cities. He believed the City should be able to solve the problems. Commissioner Daninger inquired if there had been any discussion regarding class five snowmobile trails comprised of gravel, and if this was proposed to occur in the future. He noted the City's bituminous trails, and inquired why there are no different types of trails. Commissioner Apel explained the focus within the last several years has been on the hiking trails. Commissioner Daninger inquired if all the residents of the City wanted hiking trails. Commissioner Apel stated he did not know if they did or not, however, they seemed to appreciate them. He commented that this was determined to be a good idea several years ago and he still believed it was. He added, however, he did not think they should discriminate against the minority who are attempting to protect their right to snowmobile. He stated there was a very vocal minority that was against it, and as a landowner himself, he would not be opposed to a ban, however, he did not think this was a fair way of going about it. / , ,__J Mr. Haas stated a few years ago, staff had conducted a study, and asked the citizens what their priority was, in terms of parks, trails, ball fields, and the like. He explained that trails were the number one request. He advised the best trail is bituminous. He explained that class five trails constitute maintenance and erosion problems, and skateboarders and rollerbladers cannot use them. Commissioner Apel commented that everyone agreed that they enjoy the trails. Mr. Haas added that every day he saw the trails utilized in some manner, whether for running, rollerblading or the like. He explained the Parks and Recreation Commission wanted to protect the trails, having spent over $400,000 on their development. He stated staff receives many compliments from people moving into the City, indicating that the trail system is fabulous, and the Public Works Department does a very good job maintaining them. Commissioner Apel inquired regarding the $15 fee, which was set aside at the state level for repairing damage to the trails. Mr. Haas stated there was previously a $50 fee required for the use of studs, however, he believed that money was being reimbursed to the people who paid the fee. Mr. Luslig stated this was not correct. He explained the snowmobile manufacturers had absorbed this loss, because of the ruling by the State of Minnesota, which guarantees another million dollars for each city for repairs, and these funds are available. Mr. Haas stated staff has contacted the city of Minneapolis regarding repairs, and they have advised not to not seal-coat, as this process causes a problem for the skateboarders and rollerbladers. He further explained that Minneapolis does not fog-seal their pavement, but mills the pavement, and re- paves the damaged section ofthe trail. '\ / l) (j Regular Andover Planningl1nd Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 18 " , Commissioner Apel stated if this fee has been set aside for the repair of damaged trails, the economic argument was not valid. Mr. Haas stated he had not previously heard of this, however, he would look into it. Commissioner Falk agreed with Commissioner Apel, in that he did not want the snowmobilers damaging his yard, however, he believed there should be a cooperative effort to provide winter trails for the snowmobilers. He stated he was not in favor of banning snowmobiles. Chair Squires stated every year, during the last seven or eight, this issue has been discussed, and every year people have attended the meetings and indicated all of the issues presently brought forward. He stated there has not been a large enough effort by the City to work with the Commission on these problems, and to help educate the public in this regard. He stated this is an enforcement issue, and they should direct more funds to the Sheriffs Department to step up enforcement, and make the penalties greater so that those people who are the "bad apples" are truly prevented, restrained, or discouraged from repeating their behavior. He reiterated, however, that all of these things have been discussed every year for the past seven years. "- j Commissioner Apel clarified this discussion has occurred for 17 years, and would continue into the future. He stated the banning of snowmobiles has never solved the problem, and as proof of this, they can look at Coon Rapids where they are banned, yet continue to be present. He stated that banning is never the answer, and never will be. / Chair Squires stated his opinion was, after seven years of attempting to work cooperatively and address the problem, the problem still exists. He commented that every year they have considered every possible option through task forces, the Sno-Dragons, volunteer efforts, educating the children, posting signs, and many other means, however, and in spite of this, the problems continue to be the same. Commissioner Apel inquired if Chair Squires was advocating they give up. Chair Squires stated in his judgement, seven years was enough time. He explained he was not advocating giving up, however, he had personally observed some of the problems, listened to people who have had their property damaged, and law enforcement has indicated it would be easier to deal with if the issue was black and white. He noted the City's trails are its primary drawing factor, and is a tremendous benefit to all residents of the City. He stated the City's population was already concentrated enough the urban areas, and it is appropriate that snowmobiles be elsewhere. Commissioner Jovanovich agreed. She stated she had lived in the City for 30 years, and the snowmobiles used to ride in the fields behind her yard, however the City has changed, and is not the open space that it used to be. Commissioner Daninger's opinion was that a trail was the solution, and if a ban was in place, it might provide the impetus required to achieve that goal. He suggested a ban as a new approach to Regular Andover Plannin~~~d Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 19 , \ ',..J the problems. He explained that from an enforcement standpoint, the issue would become black and white. He added the problems would still occur, and it would be difficult to enforce a ban, however, this might provide the ability to go before the City and request the trails. Commissioner Falk inquired why they should give up without trying. Commissioner Daninger explained, according to Chair Squires, they have been trying for seven to fifteen years. Mr. Haas stated the Andover Sno-Dragons have tried very hard to obtain a trail, and in fact, the Parks and Recreation Commission has worked with them regarding a section of trail through Kelsey Park, to access 7th Avenue. He explained, however, this matter has had to come before the City on an annual bases, and last year the snowmobile club did not approach the City, which is why the signs were removed, and there is currently no designated snowmobile trail across that area. He noted there was always the opportunity to do this in the future. He explained the City has always indicated they would be willing to work with the snowmobile club in terms of establishing the trails, however, it is the snowmobile club's responsibility to obtain permission from the landowners to cross their land. / , ,.J Commission Dalien inquired if the snowmobile club had to come to the City to request this trail every year. Mr. Haas stated this was correct. He explained they had the trail for one year, and there were not many complaints to his knowledge, however, they had to come back annually to request the City's permission to cross the park area, a small section from Round Lake to l51S! Avenue, with a trail. Commissioner Dalien commented this was a very difficult issue, and the majority of the audience appeared to be in favor of snowmobiling. He inquired regarding the public notification, as the audience appeared to be somewhat one-sided at present. He agreed that the City has changed, and this issue comes forward year after year. He stated there did not appear to be any simple solution. Commissioner Dalien commented that the Mayor had brought forward the suggestion of a ten-mile per hour speed limit, however, there would still be an enforcement problem. He explained it becomes difficult for the police to have to consider the variables, and provide reasonable enforcement, and in light of this, he was willing to consider a ban of some form. He was uncertain where the line should be, and if the sport should be banned entirely in the City. He stated, however, some restrictions on where snowmobiling occurred were necessary, because the City has changed substantially, and snowmobiling does not fit well with an urban area unless there are some designated areas where it can be done, and the City does not presently have that. Commissioner Dalien stated the City should continue to work with the snowmobile organization in attempting to develop some trails, however, there still is a problem that needs to be resolved, and a temporary ban, until such time as those trails can be worked out, is a reasonable consideration. Commissioner Jovanovich stated she lived south of Bunker Lake Road. She commented as soon as " there is a new snowfall, there are people snowmobiling in Terrace Park. , ~ Regular Andover Planning~~d Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 20 . '\ ',../ Commissioner Hedin stated he was not a snowmobiler and he lived north of 161't Avenue, therefore if he decided to purchase a snowmobile, he would not be affected by a partial ban. He remarked Mayor McKelvey's ideas were excellent. Commissioner Hedin commented it appeared that the Commission's vote would be split. He stated he was not in favor of any ban, and would prefer to see the two sides working together to establish trails. He explained, however, it was not the Planning and Zoning Commission's responsibility to discuss all of the ideas, and work with either side, rather the proposed solutions should be brought forward to them, and resolved from that point. He reiterated he would not vote for a temporary ban, either in part of the City or in entirety. " ,) Chair Squires stated there had been some suggestion to establish a network of trails that would ultimately filter out into a larger trail to get people out of the population concentration. He noted the City is largely developed, and to "retro" it for a trail, in his opinion, is too simplistic. He stated the County is developing Bunker Lake Boulevard and dedicating it for a particular use, with a right-of- way all the way to Round Lake Boulevard. He stated there were other major areas, such as Hanson Boulevard that has a trail on the east side, which changes to the west side at Andover Boulevard. He stated there would be a snowmobile trail on Hanson Boulevard, which would act as a major intersection and a collector of snowmobile traffic from the concentrated areas of the City, that will conflict with that. He did not think it was practically feasible to believe they could put in a network of minor collector trails leading onto a major collector or arterial trail, ultimately leading out of the City. He stated he would not discourage discussion in this regard, and if it were to come into being, that would be fine, however, those discussions have been going on for as long as the issue has existed, and there is no trail to date. He stated he did not see this as a great enlightening solution to the problem that they are all on the verge of grasping, or a meeting of the minds, which would resolve everything. He explained if trails are still a possibility in people's minds, they should be pursued, but he did not see this as a panacea, and had heard nothing that convinced him to delay addressing the problem. Commissioner Hedin remarked if this was correct, and there is no solution, the proposed ban would not be temporary, it would be permanent. Chair Squires stated whether it is considered a temporary or a permanent ban, it is the same. He explained that the City Council can amend the ordinance at any time, and if the Commission recommends to the Council a ban, it would be banned. However, if the ban did not ultimately work, and the matter comes forward again in the future, they would discuss the new issues. Commissioner Hedin commented with a split vote, the matter will likely come before the Commission again next year. He added the Council might vote in the opposite direction. He stated that the newspaper had printed an article that indicated this issue would be discussed during the present meeting. He reiterated that he would like to see the two sides working together, and if it is . 'I possible to have some of these trails, consider making them permanent, so they aren't required to '-./ Regular Andover Plannin~;!nd Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 21 . '\ '-~ corne before the City every year. He stated if the problems were consistent, perhaps they could ban snowmobiles on certain streets like Round Lake Boulevard, although that does not seem to have solved the problems in that area, to date. Commissioner Apel inquired if staff was requesting the Commission provide their recommendation. Mr. Johnson stated this was correct, and staff would forward this to the City Council for the October 19, City Council meeting. Commissioner Apel inquired if they was preparing a model ordinance, or just forwarding the matter to the City Council for discussion. Mr. Johnson stated the Council will review the minutes, and will consider the Planning and Zoning Commission's recommendation, and staff will request direction at that point. He noted another public hearing would be necessary, if the Council decides to direct staff to draft an amendment to the Snowmobile Ordinance. Commissioner Apel stated it appeared as though the recommendation would be that there should be some type of a ban, as four Commissioners are recommending a ban, and three are not. / "- .....J Chair Squires inquired if this matter would corne back to the Commission prior to Council consideration. Mr. Johnson explained this matter would go to the Council for direction after reviewing the public hearing. Chair Squires stated it was appropriate and necessary to provide a motion. Mr. Haas clarified the process for the members of the audience. He explained that the Commission's recommendation would be brought before the Council who would make the ultimate decision. He noted the Commission may recommend a ban, however, the Council may decide not to do follow that recommendation. Motion by Daninger, seconded by Jovanovich, to recommend to Council that the City Adopt a Ban on Snowmobiles South of 161 sl Avenue, as Advised and Pursuant to the Discussion of the September 28, 1999 Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting. Motion carried on a 4-ayes, 3-nays, O-absent vote. Commissioner Apel requested the mover consider amending his motion to include the R-4 District. He explained the line drawn at 161st Avenue had not been decided upon at the Task Force meeting, but had simply been discussed as an easy point of reference from which to draw a line. He stated he had attended the meeting, and it was the R-4 area that was discussed in terms of a snowmobile ban. He stated the problem as presented does not exist outside ofthe R-4 District. Commissioner Dalien noted in specifying the R -4 District versus the area south of 161 st Avenue, a problem would remain in terms of enforcement. '\ ,_ ..J Regular Andover Planning~~d Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 22 ,- \ \..J Commissioner Daninger stated he would not agree to amend his motion, in order that they might proceed with the matter. Commissioner Hedin stated he did not believe the enforcement benefits were a good basis for making a recommendation. He stated the rules should be as they are, and enforced as well as they can be enforced. He reiterated his belief that no ban was good, adding that drawing a specific line at 161 sl Avenue was bad policy. Mr. Johnson stated this matter would be considered at the October 19, 1999 City Council meeting. PUBLIC HEARING: AMEND ORDINANCE 8, SECTION 4.26 - BULK STORAGE OF LIQUID FUELS. Mr. Johnson stated the Planning and Zoning Commission is asked to hold a public hearing to review an amendment to Ordinance No.8, Section 4.26 - Bulk Storage of Fuels. At the September 7, 1999 City Council meeting, Council authorized staff to prepare an amendment that would allow an administrative permit process for existing uses that are associated with the storage of bulk fuels which have previously received Special Use Permit approval. ~_ ) Mr. Johnson stated provided the Commission with a copy of the proposed amendment and the City Council minutes of September 7, 1999 for their review and comment. Commissioner Apel asked what had metabolized this change. Me. Johnson referred the Commission to a letter from Pump and Meter Service, Inc., which indicated this company is in the business of installing underground tanks, and is dealing with other communities, that, for the most part, do not require a Special Use Permit process. He explained these communities allow staff or the MPCA or the EP A Codes to address the issues, as well as the Fire Marshall if necessary, to insure that the installation is done properly. Commissioner Apel stated that doing this administratively does not provide the neighborhood the opportunity to know what is occurring, and he had a problem with this. He explained he did not believe the City had ever denied a Special Use Permit request for they type of use, however, his concern would be that an administrative process would diminish the neighbors' ability to be aware of what was occurring. Mr. Johnson stated this was also staffs concern upon drafting this amendment. He explained if the process was administrative, you would know that the project complies with the EP A Code, however, you would not be made aware of what was being installed. , '\ '._~ Regular Andover Planning~~d Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 23 \ .,-.j Chair Squires stated the staff report presumed that this amendment would apply to only underground tanks, however, the amendment indicates "all uses including pipelines, tanks, abovelbelow ground having the capacity of 500 gallons or more." He explained, in theory, a Special Use Permit application for a gas station might come before the Commission, which would be typical and would provides the opportunity to examine the layout and render judgement regarding whether or not the proposed use is compatible with the surrounding uses. However, the applicant may later apply for a huge above-ground storage tank, and install it in a location that would have affected the way the felt about the first tank, yet the Commission would not have the opportunity to review it. He was concerned that this might be the way it would operate. Commissioner Apel stated a business could come forward with a Special Use Permit request for a propane tank, and a year later, decide that they want to increase their capacity. City Planner John Hinzman stated three or four of the service stations in town have done this with a separate application. He explained they have come in with their original tanks, and have added the LP service at a later date. Commissioner Apel advised the matter would not come before the Commission again. Chair Squires stated he agreed with Commissioner Apel's concerns. / "- '- .J Mr. Johnson stated staff had attempted to create a "catch-all" in the Administrative Permit Process that would provide them the ability to revert to the Special Use Permit process, in the event that the proposal would enlarge, alter, or intensify the use, and should not be approved. He added, however, this would result in having to rely upon staffs opinion, every time an item came forward. Commissioner Apel stated he did not personally think this was a good idea. He stated that the public notification process was important. Commissioner Hedin inquired how staff would determine whether or not to approve an administrative permit. Mr. Hinzman explained the major reason for the Special Use Permit process is to provide the public notification element. He explained staff does not have the training to go out and site the tanks and verify the safety, they refer this to the Fire Marshall. He added the public notification element was important. Commissioner Daninger stated this was a matter of whether there would be a public hearing, or if the process would be handled administratively. He stated it was not the City's fault if the tank installers were behind schedule, and if they know there is going to be a public hearing process, they should plan ahead. "- '-../ Regular Andover PlanninI-Jd Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 24 , , ) Chair Squires stated the Commission should be cautious and not base their judgement on whether or not this change is prudent. He explained it was not prudent or appropriate to recommend an amendment to the ordinance based upon one issue, the difficulties of Pump and Meter Service, Inc. Commissioner Hedin noted Item 6 of the Pump and Meter Service's letter, which indicates that this administrative procedure is the logical thing to do. He stated the public hearing was also the logical thing to do, and he would not like to take away the resident's ability to know what was going to be installed underground, next door to them, particularly if it is a 500 gallon underground gas tank. Commissioner Jovanovich stated she thought they should maintain the public hearing process. Motion by Hedin, seconded by Falk, to open the public hearing at 9:04 p.m. Motion carried on a 7- ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. There was no public input. Motion by Apel, seconded by Jovanovich, to close the public hearing at 9:05 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. , \ ,_J Motion by Apel, seconded by Hedin to Direct Staff to Make No Changes to Ordinance No.8, Section 4.26 - Bulk Storage of Fuels. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent-vote. PUBLIC HEARING: AMENDED SPECIAL USE PERMIT (ASUP 99-16) - ADDITION OF PORTABLE CLASSROOMS - 16150 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD NW - CONSTACE FREE CHURCH. Planning Intern, Megan Barnett stated the Planning and Zoning Commission is asked to review an Amended Special Use Permit request by Constance Free Church, to allow four (4) temporary classroom trailers to be placed onto the church parking lot located at 16150 Crosstown Boulevard, NW. She stated the subject property is zoned R-l, Single Family Rural. Ms. Barnett provided the Commission with an overview of the applicable ordinances and the criteria presented. Ms. Barnett stated Constance Free Church was constructed in 1994, under SUP 94-06. On May 4, 1999 they were granted an Amended Special Use Permit to construct a 13,000 square foot addition, and are presently requesting a Special Use Permit to place four (4) temporary classroom trailers onto the parking lot. \ '. / Ms. Barnett stated the applicant has submitted a site plan, which indicates the size and location of the four temporary trailers. She provided the Commission with a copy of the site plan, as well as pictures of the site. Regular Andover Planning~~d Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 25 - \ '-) Ms. Barnett stated the temporary classroom trailers were proposed to be placed on the church parking lot, however, the Uniform Building Code may prohibit this, therefore, the placement of the classroom trailers could be altered through the commercial site plan process. Ms. Barnett stated each of the temporary classroom trailers would be twelve feet by fifty-six feet. She explained the temporary classroom trailers are needed to provide education rooms while phase two of the church addition is being constructed. She indicated they will need the classrooms for four to six weeks, and that time will commence pending approval by the City Council on October 19, 1999. She advised the Commission should set forth a date that establishes a deadline for removal of the temporary classroom trailers. Ms. Barnett stated Constance Free Church has been notified in writing by the Building Official, of the procedural requirements that must be met for the placement and installation of the temporary classroom trailers, and the Andover Review Committee will review the commercial site plan for compliance of placement and site requirements. Ms. Barnett stated staff would recommend a fourth condition be included in the resolution, which states the applicant must comply with all Uniform Building Codes. . , ....J Ms. Barnett provided the Commission with an outline ofthe available options for action. Commissioner Ape! stated the temporary classroom trailers could not possibly comply with all of the Building Codes, and in light of this, inquired if the fourth condition recommended by staff might prevent the project from proceeding. City Planner John Hinzman stated they have gone through the process of temporary classroom requests with other churches and schools, and the regulations are quite extensive. Commissioner Apel explained, however, this was based upon a special section of the Building Code, and staffs proposed condition simply refers to the Building Code. Ms. Barnett indicated the requirements had been provided in the Commissioner's packets, pursuant to Building Official, Dave Almgren. Commissioner Apel noted that the specific Building Codes were not presented therein. Chair Squires inquired if Constance Free Church had seen the information provided by the Building Official. He noted this indicated that the foundation was to withstand required loads and forces, and required the construction of a non-combustible link between the unit and the main building, i.e. steel, concrete, or block. He stated he had firsthand knowledge of these portable classrooms, and how the Building Code impacts them. He stated these requirements were onerous, in his opinion, and inquired if the Building Code issues were not within the Building Official's purview. He inquired if \ / Regular Andover Planning~~d Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 26 ) / they would not have to meet the Building Code whether or not it was added as a condition to the resolution. Mr. Hinzman stated the applicant must meet those requirements by state statutes, however, the provision is sometimes included as a "catch-all" to make the applicant aware of those regulations. Chair Squires stated he would not be privy to use of the Building Code to impact the desire of a Church to put in temporary classrooms as he thought this might. He added he would not agree with a provision that will make the situation for the Church, and their desire to put in the classrooms, so difficult. Commissioner Apel stated the inclusion of these requirements was tantamount to saying "no." Chair Squires explained the Building Code requirements for temporary classrooms, as interpreted by the City of Andover, require substantial foundation work, i.e., many very large piers of concrete below the frost line and under each unit, as well as the combustible link, which is actually the construction of a structure which connects the existing Church with these temporary facilities. He stated the cost of this compared to the cost of temporary facilities themselves, and the period of time for which they will be used, make the project in many cases cost prohibitive. / \ ,_~) Commissioner Dalien stated School District 11 behind the Crooked Lake School had a temporary classroom for a very long time, and he did not recall this structure having a combustible link. Commissioner Apel stated this condition is very onerous. He inquired what the applicant would do with the pilings when they remove the trailers, adding it would be very expensive to cut them down to the level of the parking lot. Commissioner Dalien added these structures were only to be used for a four to six week period. Chair Squires stated each city or jurisdiction that has adopted the Uniform Building Code is responsible for its enforcement, and he believed Dave Almgren, as the Chief Building Official, makes judgments and interpretations about what the Code requires. However, the Code does not address every situation that exists, and the Building Official must exercise his discretion for a particular situation. He reiterated he had seen this situation before, and was aware how the regulations apply and unfavorably impact the ability to proceed. Commissioner Hedin inquired if the Building Official could enforce the fourth condition, without its inclusion on the resolution. Chair Squires stated he might well be able to. He explained, however, he would not be party to it. Mr. Hinzman stated he believed the fourth condition was a moot point, in that if Dave Almgren wanted to enforce a matter, he could do so, regardless of the conditions of the resolution. \ J Regular Andover PlanninfJd Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 27 , " , '---./ Chair Squires stated the Building Official should be reasonable in terms of these types of facilities for Churches and the like, recognizing their temporary nature. Commissioner Apel stated staff could draft the Special Use Permit, however, in essence the Building Official will have the final word, and the applicant will have to comply with the Building Code. Mr. Hinzman stated staff could work with the Building Official in this regard. Commissioner Apel stated the first three conditions of the resolution were harmless, and suggested the Commission recommend approval of the resolution with these three items, and include the date of the commencement of the project, he would leave it up to the Building Inspector as to how he would like to proceed with the Building Code requirements. Chair Squires stated he would like to include some discussion that recommends to City staff that they work with the Church to accomplish the objectives within the confines of the Code. ~ '-) Commissioner Apel stated this project was simply to provide a shelter for the students, and the trailers are temporary. He inquired why they should be treated like a permanent structure, with combustible links entrance and permanent foundations. He explained some of the construction on slab-on-grade homes did not have these requirements. He stated the question was whether they were going to consider temporary structures within the City of Andover as temporary structures, or set such onerous rules and enforce building codes that essentially would prohibit them. He explained when people want to move a trailer onto their land after a tornado or fire, and are given permission to live in that trailer for a short amount of time, they are not required to provide a permanent foundation. Commissioner Daninger inquired if these regulations were safety oriented. Chair Squires stated much of the concern has arisen out of some high profile cases in the media regarding portable classrooms that were alleged to be structurally unsafe. Forest Lake School District and some GE Capital units that the Building Official had concluded were they were structurally unsound, and now when anyone says "portables", it is assumed the structures will fall down. Jerry Hibma, representative of Constance Free Church, the applicant stated they would want the classrooms to be safe. Chair Squires stated he did not believe there was any doubt that the Church would not put children in the portables believing them to be dangerous. Motion by Ape!, seconded by Jovanovich, to close the public hearing at 9:15 p.m. Motion carried on " ) a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. Regular Andover Planning(u~d Zoning Commission Meeting () Minutes-September 28,1999 Page 28 , -' Commissioner Falk asked if the Commission was set forth a date that establishes a deadline for the removal of the temporary classroom trailers. Mr. Hibma stated they would be ready to remove the trailers at the end of December or in the middle of January at the latest. Commissioner Daninger stated they were anticipating October 19, 1999 City Council approval so they could base the date upon the date of approval. Commissioner Apel stated the City typically uses a ninety-day time period for temporary trailers for housing. Chair Squires suggested ninety days from approval by the City Council, and Council could adjust the date as necessary. , \ \_ J Motion by Hedin, seconded by Apel to Recommend Approval of Resolution No. R -99, a Resolution Approving an Amended Special Use Permit Request of Constance Free Church to Allow for the Placement of Four Temporary Classroom Trailers Onto the Parking Lot at the Property Located at 16150 Crosstown Boulevard, NW (PIN 14-32-24-14-0001, 0003, 0005), With the Date Inserted into Number Three, as Calculated. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. Mr. Hinzman noted the comments made with the Building Official's review of the permit, to see if he better defines the temporary use of a structure. Commissioner Apel suggested staff might make the Building Official aware of the costs and issues involved, however, ifhe takes a strong position in this regard, it is within his purview. Ms. Barnett stated this matter would be considered at the October 19, 1999 City Council meeting. OTHER BUSINESS. Mr. Hinzman reported on previous Council Action from the September 21, 1999 City Council meeting. He stated the City's right-of-way ordinance; Ordinance No. 247 had been tabled pending further review of the Council and the City Attorney. Mr. Hinzman stated at the next meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission, the Commission will consider a Special Use Permit request by US West Wireless to construct a telecommunications tower in a revised location which is proposed to be approximately 100 feet west of the original site. He noted there would be consideration of a Land Reclamation Permit on South Coon Creek Boulevard, three Special Use Permits for Andover Station, a Moving Permit to bring a home into the ; City, a permit for a garage before principal structure on the same property, and the possibility of a (\ ( , Regular Andover Planninguhd Zoning Commission Meeting V Minutes - September 28, 1999 Page 29 , Special Use Permit for the Bulk Storage of Liquid Fuels. He added there would be two public hearings for real estate signs at Fox Hollow as well. Mr. Hinzman invited any interested Planning and Zoning Commission members to serve on the Advisory Committee for the Cedar Creek/Green Lake project, which would meet four times between the fall and early spring to set objectives for Cedar Creek. He commented Jim Lindahl Park Board member had been appointed to the committee, as well as two residents of six who had applied. There was no other business to come before the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission. ADJOURNMENT Motion by Daninger, seconded by Jovanovich, to adjourn. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, 0- absent vote. The meeting adjourned at 9:20 p.m. Respectfully submitted, / \ Trish Pearson, Recording Secretary I.. / TimeSaver Off Site Secretarial, Inc. . , \ ,_.J