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HomeMy WebLinkAboutNovember 27, 2001 u .~ o o o CITY of ANDOVER PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING - NOVEMBER 27,2001 The Regular Bi-Monthly Meeting ofthe Andover Planning and Zoning Commission was called to order by Chairperson Jay Squires on November 27, 2001, 7:06 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners present: Chairperson Jay Squires, Commissioners Tim Kirchoff, Mark Hedin, Douglas Falk, Rex Greenwald, and Dean Daninger. Commissioners absent: Commissioner Larry Dalien. Also present: City Planner, Courtney Bednarz Planning Intern, Jason Angell Others APPROVAL OF MINUTES November 13, 2001 Motion by Kirchoff, seconded by Daninger, approve the minutes as presented. Motion carried on a 4-ayes, O-nays, 2-present (Falk and Greenwald), I-absent (Dalien) vote. PUBLIC HEARING: DISCUSSION OF ULTRALIGHT VEHICLES City Planner Courtney Bednarz explained that the FAA inspected the site and determined that the residential neighborhoods surrounding the sod field constitute a 'congested area', which means that the flying of ultralights over them, at any height, is a violation ofF AA regulations. He stated that to allow FAA enforcement to take place, there must be enough evidence to conduct a criminal investigation. The FAA doesn't require licensing of the vehicles or pilots. In discussions with Christine Fiero ofthe FAA, she indicated that the decision was made in the early 1980's when ultralights where becoming more popular. The debate over licensing has been discussed since that time without changes to this policy. Staff contacted the American Planning Association for assistance in locating any ultralight regulations that exist across the country. Very few specific regulations for ultralights were found. Among those communities and states that specifically regulate , () Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 27, 2001 Page 2 u / ultralight aircraft, the most common tool is a special use permit or some type of permit issued by the local government or the FAA. Specific information is provided in the staff report regarding nationwide regulations. Mr. Bednarz stated that a range of options are provided in the staff report as a basis for discussion. Mike Louis, Section Chief from the Minnesota Department of Transportation - Division of Aeronautics, stated that the FAA does have full respons~bility of the air space, air traffic control, etc. He went on to give a brief history of how ultralights gained interest over time as a recreational sport. He stated that the FAA does prohibit flying over congested areas, and requires at any point during a flight that the ultralight be able to land safely if the engine were to quit unexpectedly. He mentioned that the state doesn't regulate ultralight vehicles at any time. He went on to give reasons to support this statement. . , } ''-.../ Mr. Louis stated that their office is actively involved in putting on safety seminars for ultralight pilots; furthennore they've sponsored a number of flight expos over time. He stated that they feel ultralights serve as an important part in aviation. He stated that they haven't seen any accidents in recent years. He mentioned that other requirements for flying an ultralight are that the pilot can weigh no more than 250 pounds and have 5 gallons of gas. He also mentioned that there are no pilot certificates required; however the pilots are encouraged to go through a training program. He offered to work with the group of pilots to evaluate the site and detennine flight patterns and other issues that could be addressed to be neighborhood friendly. Commissioner Kirchoff questioned if ultralights are regulated over congested areas where regular aircraft aren't. Mr. Louis explained what actually constitutes controlled air space and that anything flying into controlled air space must follow the rules ofthat air space. He reminded the Commission that ultralights aren't allowed to fly over congested areas. Commissioner Kirchoff questioned if these rules hold true for heavy aircraft. Mr. Louis stated that additional regulations are in place for heavy aircraft. Commissioner Greenwald questioned if it's correct to say with ultralights that there is no ceiling when flying over a congested area, but instead it's prohibited. Mr. Louis stated that that is correct. Mr. Louis reminded the Commission that just portions of the area have been determined by the FAA to be congested. Commissioner Greenwald asked Mr. Louis on what is typically said regarding the noise '" of ultralights. Mr. Louis stated that they would encourage a sound test to be conducted. '-- j u U Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 27, 2001 Page 3 He mentioned that noise from ultralights is sometimes less than ambient noise of the sUrrounding area. He went on to discuss design modifications that can reduce noise. Commissioner Greenwald asked Mr. Louis if he has heard of any ultralight group that has been successful regulating themselves. Mr. Louis stated that many times the ultralight groups do self regulate themselves, furthermore he stated that he's aware of numerous situations when a group hasn't allowed a pilot to fly because of a concern. Commissioner Daninger questioned who is Samuel B. Weatherford. Mr. Louis stated that he doesn't know Mr. Weatherford. Mr. Bednarz stated that he is the investigator with the FAA that visited the site. Commissioner Daninger questioned if the FAA has ever enforced or fined anyone exercising illegal ultralight activity. Mr. Louis stated that he can't think of any specific instances, however is aware there have been pilots fined for illegal use. Commissioner Daninger questioned ifhe saw an ultralight flying over hisl1ouse, what would be the appropriate actions to prove it happened. Mr. Louis suggested Commissioner Daninger take pictures. Commissioner Greenwald questioned ifhe could fly an ultralight without any questions j being asked. Mr. Louis stated that if an instructor accompanied him, Commissioner Greenwald could fly in an ultralight. Commissioner Greenwald stated that he sympathizes with the residents, since it's difficult to monitor the ultralight activity. Commissioner Kirchoff questioned if a pilot were breaking the law would it be more effective for the resident to call the sheriff or the organization Mr. Louis represents. Mr. Louis stated that if he were involved in setting up the rules, then it would be fine if a resident contacted him. Commissioner Greenwald mentioned that if a situation arises where a pilot is flying over the congested area the resident is bound to end up calling the City before anyone else. Chair Squires questioned how the City would require that the site prepare an operational plan with the assistance of Mr. Louis's office, ifthere was some consideration to adopt regulations. Mr. Louis suggested working with the office of aeronautics to create an operational plan. '- , Chair Squires questioned if a pilot goes through a program, if they are then certified and trained. Mr. Louis explained that if someone goes through the program and becomes a registered pilot, they would then receive a number, which tells other pilots and the airport u u j Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 27, 2001 Page 4 that the pilot has gone through the training program. He mentioned that the program does review everything that's necessary to fly safely. Chair Squires questioned if the City were to require appropriate training, would it be the correct language to state that they be registered pilots. Mr. Louis stated that that would be one possibility. Mr. Louis mentioned that there are probably more accidents with certified pilots than with those who aren't certified due to different flying styles. Commissioner Greenwald stated that he's concerned since it was stated at the last meeting by a pilot that they could take off in Ham Lake and fly over neighborhoods in Andover. He questioned if people who fly ultralights are aware ofthe rules. Mr. Louis stated that pilots are responsible for leaming and observing all flight standards. Commissioner Kirchoff questioned where most of the ultralights take off. Mr. Louis stated that there are a number of private fields in the metro area, however the activity takes place at some public airports, as well. '\ '- ) Commissioner Greenwald questioned if a pilot were to land in a neighborhood safely, then would they have broken the law. Mr. Louis stated that technically they would have broken the law. He mentioned that if the pilot were to land safely and it was because of an emergency situation, it may be acceptable as long as there was no damage and if there was the pilot would pay for the damages. Commissioner Hedin questioned if people fly during the winter months or if the flying shuts down. Mr. Louis stated that there is less activity during the winter, however some do fly. The public hearing was continued from the last ultralight discussion. Bruce Vandenboom, 430 146th Lane, questioned how it was determined that the area is congested and by whom. Chair Squires explained that it was the FAA that determined the area should be considered congested. Mr. Vandenboom stated that the residents who were opposed were mostly from the east of the property and come from lots 2.5 acres in size and wooded, and those that didn't care were from the more open areas. Commissioner Kirchoff stated that just portions of the area were determined congested by the FAA. \ ,_J Mr. Vandenboom stated that the FAA also says that if the ultralight can land safely there is no issue. He mentioned that just because they are flying over the congested area doesn't mean they'll land on a house. " " U Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 27, 2001 Page 5 () , / Mr. Vandenboom stated that the area to the east that's been determined congested is really no larger than 4 blocks by 4 blocks; therefore there are plenty of other areas where the ultralights could fly. Gary Garbe, 14856 Evergreen St. NW, stated that he lives just to the east of the field. He stated that if just one potential homebuyer were to have second thoughts that would be enough to have a negative impact on the value of a home. Jim Linehan, 665 148th Lane NW, stated that he can think of a lot more things that could take place on the property and would be worse than ultralight flying. He mentioned that it would be much worse if the site were ajunkyard or sold to a developer for apartments. He also mentioned that he watched an ultralight fly one time and it seemed to be one of the safest things to fly. Adam Winiarczyk, 14942 Evergreen St. NW, presented the Commission with a handout consisting a list of facts based on his own personal opinion dated 11-27-01. He went on to review each fact, with a total of 13 being stated. He stated that the residents are requesting the City to pass an ordinance that prohibits these illegal activities in their neighborhood through a Special Use Permit. He stated that the permit may conditionally allow airstrips if they are located far enough from residential areas, are situated on land areas large enough for such operations (minimum of 1 00 acres) with a minimum 1000 , / foot distance from nearest residence, and meet additional requirements as outlined to the P & Z Commission during the 10/23/01 meeting. He mentioned that the City of Andover isn't the rural area it was 10 years ago and as the City develops it needs some public safety and nuisance regulations to protect communities from unscrupulous individuals and/or special interests like this club. Chair Squires questioned if the map included in his handout that outlines the congested areas is his interpretation or if it's the FAA's determination. Mr. Winiarczyk stated that it was based on his interpretation. Chair Squires questioned if a pilot is not in compliance is it possible to prosecute. He questioned if the FAA would be the one to prosecute. Mr. Winiarczyk stated that that is correct. Chair Squires questioned Mr. Winiarczyk ifhe would like to make part ofthe record his e-mail writtenonNovember6.2001toCourtneyBednarz.Mr. Winiarczyk stated that he would like his e-mail included in the minutes as part ofthe record (attached). Commissioner Daninger questioned Mr. Winiarczyk on what is a special residential quiet muffler. Mr. Winiarczyk explained that it's similar to a muffler used near residential areas on a generator. / " " U Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 27, 2001 Page 6 C) , / Commissioner Daninger questioned ifhe is aware of the decibel level the generators are at with the muffler. Mr. Winiarczyk stated that he isn't aware ofthe decibel level. Commissioner Greenwald stated that he drove by Mr. Winiarczyk's home. He questioned him if it is determined by the FAA that the ultralights can fly over the 35 acres, will it be something he can live with. Mr. Winiarczyk stated that as long as they don't fly over his house and/or deck and are within the legal areas then it would be fine. Commissioner Greenwald stated that the City can't regulate what the flyers do in the air. Commissioner Kirchoff questioned if the flying has continued. Mr. Winiarczyk stated that when the FAA started investigating the area the flying stopped. Christine Winiarczyk stated that Mr. Louis expressed his opinions and professional thoughts in a biased manner. She stated that Mr. Louis referred to the flyers as a club; therefore it's likely he has had contact with them. She stated that the flyers have denied that they are a club. She stated that Mr. Louis mentioned that the flyers ne~d_a trainer on site, however the flyers have denied that the site is being used for flight training. She mentioned that the flyers have flown after dark and only 25 to 50 feet over the homes. Mr. Linehan stated that during the summer they don't continually fly over one's house. ) He stated that it wouldn't be possible for the ultralights to fly at dark since they don't have lights and wouldn't be able to see the power lines. He stated that the noise level is the same as a snowmobile. He mentioned that it frustrates him that one can't have fun because of all the rules and regulations. Mr. Vandenboom congratulated the Commission on what they've done so far. He stated that he'd like to think it's unusual to have so many residents come to a public hearing and not complain. Wayne Margotto, 134 146th Lane NW, stated that he did complain initially because of the noise. He stated that he also believes that people should be able to do their hobbies as they please. He suggested actions be taken to reduce the sound and work with everyone so that a compromise is met. Commissioner Kirchoff questioned Mr. Margotto if the ultralights ever flew over his house. Mr. Margotto stated that they did fly over his house at times and were approximately 400 feet high. Mr. Margotto stated that when they fly overhead they really are noisy, however this hasn't happened for some time. \ ,_~J Commissioner Greenwald questioned Mr. Margotto on the size of his property. Mr. Margotto stated that he has a lot 2.5 acres in size. , , , (~ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 27, 2001 Page 7 '-, '.--' '. ./ Motion by Kirchoff, seconded by Hedin, to close the public hearing at 8:45 p.m. Motion carried on a 6-ayes, O-nays, I-absent (Dalien) vote. Commissioner Kirchoff suggested the Commission recommend #1 of the recommendations listed in the staff report as a course of action to take from this point on. He stated that the recommendation is that the FAA governs the aviation and has measures in place that should be enforced. These regulations provide adequate protection for residential neighborhoods. He mentioned that this would leave the City out ofthe loop. Commissioner Daninger questioned who evaluated the site from the FAA. Mr. Bednarz stated that Samuel B. Weatherford was the representative from the FAA that came out to the site. Commissioner Daninger questioned who Christine Fiero is with the FAA. Mr. Bednarz stated that she is a supervisor with the FAA. Commissioner Daninger questioned if the flyers were notified of the public hearing. Mr. Bednarz stated that the property owner was notified. Commissioner Daninger questioned if people were notified that show support for '- ) ultralight flying as a sport. Mr. Bednarz stated that they were notified. Commissioner Greenwald stated that he's confused as to what the FAA has determined to be congested. He mentioned that it appears that one area on the map is at least 20 acres in size, however it's labeled congested. Mr. Bednarz agreed that the area in question is at least 10 acres. He stated that his discussions with the FAA focused primarily on the neighborhood to the east of the site. He suggested requesting more clarification from the FAA. Mr. Bednarz suggested staff contact the FAA and find out exactly what areas are considered congested. Commissioner Greenwald stated that he would like more clarification on what areas are congested. Chair Squires stated that what the FAA determines to be congested and what isn't congested isn't up to the City. He stated that if the FAA determines an area is congested they enforce it. Commissioner Daninger questioned ifit wouldn't be the responsibility of the flyer to know what areas are congested and what areas aren't. " " j u u Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 27, 2001 Page 8 " ' - _./ Commissioner Greenwald questioned how all flyers would know what areas are congested. Commissioner Kirchoff questioned Mr. Louis ifhe would be able to work with the FAA to determine what areas are congested. Chair Squires stated that the Commission has encouraged property owners to sit down and reach a compromise with the flyers. He stated that many times it isn't possible to get one's way completely. He stated that there needs to be a potential common ground determined with the assistance of the state. He suggested the FAA be contacted to receive clarification on what areas are congested and what areas aren't. He stated that he's disappointed in some of the comments that have been made by some residents and the presumptions that have been made towards Mr. Louis. He stated that this isn't the way it works when people sit down and work together and are able to voice their opinions and beliefs. He mentioned that a plan needs to be created that will address everyone's concerns in the best way possible, and if there are neighbors who have complaints and they aren't willing to participate then that's their decision. He suggested Mr. Louis assist in creating the operational plan that would include input from everyone. Commissioner Kirchoff agreed with Chair Squires' statement. '- ) Commissioner Daninger stated that he also agrees with Chair Squires. He mentioned that there is also a sound ordinance in place; therefore a sound test would also be helpful in coming to a resolution. He questioned if the flyers have moved to another area since there wasn't anyone present. Commissioner Hedin stated that it doesn't matter ifthe flyers are classified as a club or not. He also agreed with Chair Squires. He stated that it really doesn't matter what the City determines is congested, but instead it's up to the FAA. He stated that adding more rules and regulations won't help, but instead suggested the flyers work with Mr. Louis and the residents to create a plan. He mentioned that there already is a noise ordinance in place that will address the noise concerns. Commissioner Falk questioned if the number of ultralights flying in an area at one time would increase the noise level. Chair Squires stated that the sound test that will be conducted will consist of variations of flying along with weather considerations. Chair Squires stated that if flyers are flying over areas that the FAA determines to be congested something should definitely be done about it, however the City isn't the one who would handle it but instead the FAA. Commissioner Greenwald agreed that recommendation #1 in the staff report is probably \, the best solution. He stated that he isn't bothered by the fact that the flyers aren't present. ,j u Q \ Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 27, 2001 Page 9 Commissioner Greenwald stated that Commissioner Falk has a good point that the number of ultralights flying will make a difference in the amount of noise generated. He mentioned that he would hate to say that the site isn't suited for ultralight flying. Commissioner Kirchoff agreed to allow the flyers to self regulate themselves, and that a compromise needs to be met by the flyers and the residents. Chair Squires stated that it will be important that those who are flying are aware of what areas are congested and what areas aren't under the FAA regulations. Commissioner Daninger questioned if the Commission is agreeing to no additional ordinances, but instead letting the parties involved get together and work out the issues. Commissioner Hedin questioned if the current laws are being enforced in regards to the noise or does the Council feel the City needs more regulations. He mentioned that he feels there isn't a need for any more regulations. Motion by Hedin, seconded by Greenwald, to recommend to the City Council that there be no additional rules and/or regulations drawn up, but instead that the pilots are educated on the rules and actively obey them in addition to working with Mike Louis, the state, and the residents in creating an operational plan and if the issues aren't addressed in a timely / manner the Planning Commission will hear the concerns and readdress the problems at that time. Further Discussion Commissioner Kirchoff mentioned that it would also be nice to find out what the FAA considers congested and what isn't congested. Commissioner Greenwald questioned how a citizen that doesn't fly would prove that an ultralight is too loud if a sound test isn't conducted, furthermore if the sound test is conducted some residents will believe that it's biased. Chair Squires suggested a resident make a complaint to staff ifthey feel an ultralight is too loud. Staffwill then take enforcement actions if necessary. Mr. Bednarz stated that staffwill do a sound test, however ifthe City were to hire a consultant to conduct the test it would cost the City $1,000. He suggested staff contact the flyers and conduct the test without the assistance of a consultant. ) Chair Squires mentioned that the current noise ordinance will help staff to determine who is violating the City ordinance. Commissioner Greenwald stated that he just wanted to make it clear that the City would be doing the sound test and the readings. u o Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - November 27, 2001 Page 10 '- Motion carried on a 6-ayes, O-nays, I-absent (Dalien) vote. Mr. Bednarz stated that this item would be potentially before the City Council at the December 18th Council meeting. He stated that the residents will be notified in advance. OTHER BUSINESS Mr. Bednarz mentioned that the terms are up for Commissioners Daninger, Dalien, and Falk, therefore a one-page letter will need to be submitted in order to re-apply for the Commission. He stated that the City Council will be conducting interviews in January. Mr. Bednarz mentioned that the December Planning Commission meetings might be canceled ifno requests are submitted in time. ADJOURNMENT Motion by Hedin, seconded by Greenwald, to adjourn the meeting at 9:24 p.m. Motion carried on a 6-ayes, O-nays, I-absent (Dalien) vote. Respectfully Submitted, , j Sara Beck, Recording Secretary TimeSaver Off Site Secretarial. Inc. /