Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutSP December 2, 1999 '-"-' L/~ ''''''''''-d-I-rl CITY of ANDOVER SPECIAL ANDOVER CITY COUNCIL MEETING - DECEMBER 2,1999 MINUTES A Special Meeting of the Andover City Council was called to order by Mayor Jack McKelvey on December 2, 1999, 7:00 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Councilmembers present: Don Jacobson, Julie Johnson, Mike Knight, Ken Orttel Councilmembers absent: None Also present: Assistant City Engineer, Todd Haas Planning, Jeff Johnson City Administrator, Richard Fursman Others PUBLIC HEARING: AMEND ORDINANCE NO. 109/0PERATION OF SNOWMOBILES Mr. Haas reviewed the "No-Snowmobiling" boundary across the City plus the proposed snowmobile routes in the southern portion. Three drop-off points are proposed, those being at Pov's off Bunker Lake Boulevard, the Round Lake park and at the northern end of the City Hall site. Currently snowmobiling is aUowed on Round Lake and Crooked Lake, but not on the Rum River south of I 59th A venue. If the routes are approved, he would recommend "Snowmobile Crossing" signs be placed along Round Lake Boulevard where they would cross between the trail and the lake. The Park and Recreation Commission has reviewed the proposed trail plan and has recommended the section from Round Lake east to the first intersection be eliminated due to the high traffic around Round Lake itself. Mr. Haas also explained that even in the southern area of the City, snowmobiles can be ridden on private property with the written pennission of the property owner. Riding is not aUowed on streets or in public areas. People within 350 feet of the proposed trails were notified of the proposal and of this hearing. John Campbell explained since the last Council meeting, they have received pennission from aU private landowners over which the proposed trails would run with the exception of one on South Coon Creek Drive. Property owners signed off on the map of the proposed trails. They have not been given a fonnal letter with insurance because they are not at that point yet. They have not pursued the matter further pending the Council's decision this evening. Monico Ancheta. 2663 South Coon Creek Drive - stated no one contacted him before drawing the line of this trail. In looking at it, the trail goes across ills property. He is against anyone trespassing on his property, and he asked the City Council to disapprove it. ---- . Special Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 2, 1999 Page 2 A Deputy stated ITom a law enforcement standpoint, the trails being created will provide a place for people to take their machines and go out on them legally. The Sheriff's Department plans to continue to enforce the ordinance and plans to have specialized saturation patrols throughout the winter pending snowfall. Under state law, the maximum speed snowmobiles can go is 50 mph. Andover's ordinance has hours of operation. Councilmember Orttel noted the speed on City streets is 15 mph, but there has been no discussion of speed on the trails. Mr. Haas stated the hours of operation are to I I p.m. on week days and I o'clock on weekends. Doug Brown asked about initially issuing warranties to violators because many may not be aware of the new ordinance rather than enforcing the tag and tow policy immediately. The Deputy stated early in the season there will be some leniency. As the season goes on, they will be more aggressive. Someone asked about bringing the trail up Hanson Boulevard. A gentleman from Partridge stated the trail is proposed right behind his lot between the cul-de-sac and the landfill. He questioned the purpose of the trail because it doesn't go anywhere except to the local bar and back. He was concerned with snowmobilers coming from Pov's past the sliding hill where there will be many kids plus going past his place later than 10 o'clock at night. Councilmember Johnson understood the trail will be fenced between the landfill and the sliding hill. She understood the reason for using Pov's as a drop-off point was to have a large area to unload the sleds and to follow the trail through the City. The goal was to provide a trail to allow people to get out of the City. Mayor McKelvey also noted it is a good location because of the access to gas. He didn't feel alcohol and snowmobiling will be much of a concern because most are very conservative about riding their snowmobiles. Mr. Campbell stated the trails would be 4- to 6-feet wide. There are enough places to turn around without having to go through the woods. Snowmobilers would not be able to go faster than 10 to 15 mph. The gentleman was concerned with having the trail so close to his yard and only about 20 feet from the garage on the comer. His children ride in his yard, so he felt others will be turning around in his yard. He felt a trail that narrow is death waiting to happen. Mr. Brown stated they have approval from the property owner to go through that area only if all the adjoining residents agree. Since there appears to be disagreement, he felt it is a moot issue because they would no longer have the permission to go through there. Mayor McKelvey opened the hearing for public input. Ron Herman. 14560 Drake - was very encouraged by the efforts of the City and the snowmobilers to work together. He's heard negative comments about the trails that it is "we" versus "them". He pointed out all are members of the same community. Another concern is with having a drop-off point at Pov's. There is nothing magical about that location, but it was felt that is a good solution for a place to start. It provides a dry place to put on clothes where there are restrooms and with two to four gas stations in the area. The convenience stores are also a place to get sports or fruit drinks and some candy for the trip. Pov's also had a large parking area which will be plowed quickly. His family has lived in Andover over 16 years and has enjoyed the ability to ride from their house. Mr. Hennan felt the approval of the trail system will mean people from both sides of the issue get something, an established trail is better than snowmobiles riding in the ditch and the proposed trail -- - - Special Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 2, 1999 Page 3 is an ideal location because of the ability to get gas before and after riding. He hoped the Council saw this as a good solution for all parties concerned. He didn't believe this will be a heavily used trail nor that many others will come from other cities. There will be some; but for the most part, this will be a locally used trail. Gary Lenzmeier. 2274 I 53rd Lane - is concerned with the noise affecting his home both on week nights and on weekends. He owns two snowmobiles but would strongly oppose the trail as proposed, particularly between the City Hall and Nightingale. There are a number of homes in Nightingale Estates that would be affected, and they too strongly oppose this. Not all snowmobilers will drink at Pov's, but there is a concern that one of the trails starts there. Richard ? . 2863 South Coon Creek Drive - doesn't have a problem with the trail back there or with snowmobiling. He understood Mr. Ancheta thought the trail was going into the woods. He thought last year Mr. Ancheta had given permission to run along the property line. A concern is that people don't follow the rules. If the trail could be moved further out and good signage put in place, there would be less resistance. He was also concerned with the safety of 6- foot wide trails. He felt they need to be wider. He felt there are other things that could be done with the trail to minimize the impact on the public. Over 90 percent of the snowmobilers will conduct themselves in a good manner. He wouldn't turn down the proposal but would let people rethink the issue to move through the City with the least impact on the homes. Steven Frisbie. 14021 Ni2:htin2:ale - stated his back yard is against the new sliding hill. The trail from Pov's comes through that City park; however, the ordinance does not allow motorized vehicles in City parks. Snowmobiles cut through his yard and will go through the small amount of trees which remain to the sliding hill and will loop around that hill. He gets snowmobilers in his back yard now because it looks like that is where they are supposed to be. There are a lot of kids out there day and night this year because of the new sliding hill. He predicted that someone will get killed with the trail as proposed. He didn't think riding through that little park is a good idea. He didn't know how the trail could be fenced off and still groomed because the snow needs to be taken from outside the trail onto it. Mayor McKelvey explained Pov's was chosen as a drop-off point because it is the only place big enough for that sized parking lot. The location was not picked by the City but by the task force making the recommendation. In discussing the location of the trail through the park located in the vicinity of the landfill, Councilmember Johnson stated the snowmobile club had agreed to install snow fencing along the trail as needed instead of installing the bridge over Coon Creek. Mr. Brown again stated that because of the opposition, there is a problem with this portion of the trail because the property owner will not grant permission. Council brain stormed other locations for a drop-off point other than Pov's and other routes. Temporary parking on the north side of the substation and two-way snowmobile traffic on Hanson Boulevard were suggested. A deputy stated state law prohibits two-way traffic after dark, so that cannot be overridden. - -- -. Special Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 2, 1999 Page 4 Don Le{!l!C. member of the Snowmobile Task Force - stated he has spoken to most of the residents along the proposed route and his comments summarizes their opinions. If the trail system is approved, they want restricted speed limits, thinking 15 mph is a reasonable speed. To avoid taxpayer expense of a snowmobile trail that approximately 10 percent of the residents want, they are requesting the trail association furnish all speed limit signs every one-fourth mile and at each intersection plus all stop signs and trail location signs every 100 feet. All signs to be DOT painted with reflective surfaces. The trail association has an insurance policy in effect that offers damage protection to all property owners who allow access. He commended them for this but asked the City Council to require the association and Sno Dragons to extend this policy to cover damages to road surfaces, trails and road crossings so there is no taxpayer burden. He also asked that this policy be extended to all bordering properties along the designated trails, including the City property. Mr. Legge pointed out a quote in the November 26, 1999, Star Tribune which stated it is almost mandatory to get to Pov's bar with the trail. Noting other comments as well, he didn't feel snowmobilers would be leaving the trail just because of a time restriction. Bars and fast snowmobiles do not mix. He suggested eliminating the branch going to Pov's. Noise to the neighboring properties is also an issue. What does he tell his children who can't sleep at night because of the snowmobile noise along the trail? He hoped the vote tonight will reflect the majority of the citizens of Andover. Only the voices of Andover residents should be considered in this matter. Bob Katvala. 2226 I 53rd Lane - stated the snowmobile trail runs across his back yard. At first he thought it was great because it would provide easy access. After thinking about it, an ordinance was just passed banning snowmobilers in this area; so why is it being put back in. He didn't think it would be an inconvenience for snowmobilers to drive north one extra mile to park in the area which does allow snowmobiling. He also felt that there will be violations of the speed and thought there is no way it can be enforced. Another concern is the hours the snowmobiles will be buzzing back and forth across his back yard. He's opposed to the trail even though it would be convenient for him. ? . 13803 Nightingale - stated her back yard faces Pov's, so the snowmobilers would be right behind her. She works all day and doesn't want to be up at I I o'clock at night. She already sacrifices her summers with the ball game noises and lighting. Now she is being asked to allow the snowmobilers in the back area. That ponding area is quiet with many birds, and the snowmobiles will disrupt that natural area. She doesn't want this in her back yard; it doesn't belong there. Terry Wagner. NÎf;htingale - wondered if dirt bikes will be allowed on those trails in the summer. They put up with noise from them all summer, so they really like the peace and quiet in the winter. This needs to be put out further. Mr. Brown, speaking as a resident, stated he lives on I 66th and rode three times in Andover last year. He contacted State Representative Kathy Tinglested who lives in Andover and received some information on snowmobiling. Snowmobiling has a major positive impact on the economy in Minnesota, which is in turn is brought into the local community. As a whole, the residents are saying they don't want the trail. That just means fewer snowmobilers will be able to participate. Special Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 2. 1999 Page 5 One person will no longer be able to snowmobile with the ban in effect because he doesn't have a trailer or truck. That means fewer dollars into the community and a loss of revenue for the DNR for licenses. He felt the government should take an active role to keep snowmobiling alive. At this point he felt the trail to Pov's is no longer an issue because of the contingency of the one landowner to grant pennission only if there is no opposition. Their club trains 50 to 60 kids in this community and others each year on snowmobile safety. In his opinion, it is the kids who turn 16 to 18 and ride without having that training who are causing many of the problems. If the trail doesn't happen, he will take his money further north. He also pointed out the compound effect economically of restricting the use of snowmobiles in this community. He understood there are millions of dollars in a state fund that can be used to repair streets that are damaged by snowmobiles. He also felt that the trail could go all the way up and down Hanson Boulevard; but it would require another public hearing, and he didn't think there would be a positive response for that either. If Andover totally bans snowmobiles, other cities may follow suit; so it becomes a metropolitan issue. Mr. Brown stated it is sad the government is not taking a more active role. ? . 13808 Nightingale - is opposed to the trail to Pov's because it is going through the park where children will be. She also predicted there will be people from other cities if there is a park and ride location. Councilmember Johnson felt that is true, but people come from other cities now. Infonnation would be given in many different places to infonn them of the ordinance in Andover so they would use the designated trails. Councilmember Orttel understood that the trail to Pov's is no longer an option because of the opposition by residents by the sliding hill and landfill. Mr. Brown confinned that understanding. In further discussion with residents, the Council noted they did not propose the trails. That was done by a group of people who studied the issue. One of the criteria was that input would be received from those around the proposed routes. Those residents in Nightingale Estates pointed out the trail through there area is still being considered and there is a concern with the noise, the closeness of the trail to the houses and safety for their children. There is a house that is 50 to 75 feet from the trail. The Council asked about the possibility of moving the trail further south, at least for this year; no finn recommendation was made. There was some discussion on providing parking areas somewhere along 161 st A venue so snowmobilers could trailer and begin snowmobiling at those locations where it is not banned. That would mean driving only another mile or two north to be able to ride snowmobiles. Possibly an area could be leased. Scott Allen. 141st Lane - asked if the major concern with snowmobiles is the damage to the paved trails. He's lived in the City for 33 years and is totally against the ban. He felt the majority of the snowmobilers are very responsible. The majority of the trail system is unusable by snowmobiles because of the barricades. Why isn't snow fence put up along the trails like along Hanson Boulevard so they are accessible to the snowmobilers and to provide a path for them. The Council noted the damage to the trails plus the density in the southern portion of the City were the main reasons for the -.~- _. Special Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 2, 1999 Page 6 ban. The attempt was to find a trail system that would move the traffic north and out of the City. Burlington Northern has emphatically stated it would not allow a snowmobile trail on its easements along the train tracks. Mr. Scott stated this seems to be poorly planned. He suggested the snowmobile ban be lifted until next year when the trails can be in place instead of waiting until December. These trails should have been started in the summer. Motion by Ortte!, Seconded by Jacobson, to close the public hearing. Motion carried unanimously. 8:15 p.m. Discussion was on possible changes to the route such as moving the trail slightly along Coon Creek to accommodate the Anchetas, using Hanson Boulevard from Pov's or from the City's property south of the landfill to avoid the west side of the landfill and park area and the problems associated with it, possible parking sites somewhere along 16 I st to accommodate snowmobile trailers and to allow people to trailer to that part of the City where snowmobiling is permitted and concerns with the trail going west of City Hall because of the effect on those in Nightingale Estates. A resident stated Mr. Ancheta told him he was confused about the location of the trail as shown on the map and didn't understand it was proposed to go where it had in the past. The resident felt that portion of the trail could be revised, thinking Mr. Ancheta may now be agreeable. Others noted it may be irrelevant since there is no way to go east of Crosstown because the trail will not go through the neighborhood as originally proposed. There was some sentiment on the part of the Council to look for open land that might be available for rent across the City in the vicinity of 161 st to provide park-and-ride opportunities for snowmobilers. Because of the problems pointed out with various sections of the proposed trails, Mr. Campbell then stated they are willing to concede the entire trail this winter with the agreement that the City Council will work with them next summer to come up with a trail system that will work. As it stands, the proposed trail is too chopped up to be effective and usable. Also, there is no more time this season to come up with any other proposals for it. Most of the trail as proposed has been used for the last three years with the pennission of the property owners. He also felt that the rough trail and switchbacks force the snowmobiles to ride at a lower speed. He did not want to see the trails completely abandoned. Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Johnson, that all of the trails as proposed within the pink (southern) area on the map be deleted, but snowmobiles be allowed on Round Lake and parking on Round Lake for the purpose of loading and unloading machines, and the Council also agrees during the spring, summer and fall to work with the groups of individuals on possibilities of trails within the City and/or parking areas north of 161st which would be suitable for parking trailers and snowmobiles. Motion carried on a 4- Yes, I-No (McKelvey) vote. Special Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 2, 1999 Page 7 Councilmember Johnson suggested copies of the map showing those areas where snowmobiling is and is not allowed in the City be distributed to various businesses in and out of town so those coming into the City also know the regulations. Councilmember Knight felt the City should install signs where no snowmobiling is allowed to inform the public, especially along Hanson Boulevard. Mr. Haas stated Staff will look into it and determine the best location for those signs. Councilmember Jacobson suggested the item be on the agenda of the second meeting in December, 1999, to select a committee to look at the trail locations again and to find parking lots as discussed this evening. Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Orttel, to adjourn. Motion carried unanimously. The meeting adjourned at 8:50 p.m. Respectfully submitted, '\~~'- ~l-~ Marcella A. Peach Recording Secretary -~ -- --- - _.----..~-