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HomeMy WebLinkAboutSP June 25, 1986 CITY of ANDOVER SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING - JUL. 1, 13 8 G - AGENDA .;:r-.... n "- .:J ", 'I g(.. . PUBLIC HEARINGS/STORM DRAINAGE PROJECTS 7:30 P.M. l. Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19 9:00 P.M. 2 . Enchanted Drive/IP86-15 9:00 P.M. 3. Red Oaks/IP86-16 4 . Approve 1986 Community Subgrantee Agreement 5. 6. Adjournment I CITY of ANDOVER PUBLIC HEARINGS/STORM DRAINAGE PROJECTS - JUNE 25, 1986 MINUTES Pursuant to notice published thereof, Public Hearings on Dehn's/Round Lake, Enchanted Drive, and Red Oaks Ponds were called to order by Mayor Jerry Windschitl on June 25, 1986,7:30 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Councilmen present: Elling, Lachinski, Ortte1 Councilman absent: Kni ght Also present: TKDA Engineers, John Rodeberg and John Davidson; City Administrator/Engineer, James Schrantz; and interested residents DEHN'S/ROUND LAKE/IP86-19 Mr. Davidson reviewed the 429 procedure of holding public hearings for assessing an improvement project, in this case storm drainage improvements. Mr. Rodeberg reviewed the improvement of emptying Dehn's pond through a culvert into Round Lake, and outletting Round Lake on the northwest corner through an improved ditch going to the Rum River. The revised cost is estimated to be $63,630. He reviewed the proposed benefitted area determined by utilizing aerial photos and topography maps plus the County Road 116 plans done for Anoka County. The total benefitted area is 440 acres, of which 145 acres is unbuildab1e. The estimated assessment would be 5 cents per square foot or $215/acre. I Jim Hiltz, 4060 149th Avenue - asked if the assessment is based only on buildable area. Council and Engineers noted it is assessed only against the buildable portion of a lot, noting a demonstrated benefit must be received by the improvement to sustain an assessment. John Frazer, 14419 Seventh Avenue - stated it is his understanding that the property to be assessed dralns lnto Dehn's pond. What if the property doesn't drain that way? He stated he talked with the Engineers about this, explaining the back of his property runs to Seventh Avenue. He explained the City came in three different times to solve his problem, again noting he can prove his property runs in the opposite direction. Mr. Rodeberg explained he has discussed this with Mr. Frazer but has not looked at the property. The area was thought to be included in the drainage district of Dehn's pond, but that would be investigated further for the assessment hearing. If it does not benefit by the improvement~ it would not be assessed. ~1r. Frazer - requested someone to look at it. Mayor Windschitl stated that is an engineerlng decision and will be looked into. I I , Rosella Sonsteby - stated the proposal is not 90in9 to work. She stated Dehn's pond is lower than Round Lake and the water will not flow from Dehn's pond into the 1 ake. Mr. Rodeberg stated they are not trying to lower Dehn's pond lower than Round Lake. They are trying to keep the highest point of Dehn's pond at the level of Round Lake. Round Lake will be lowered to the ordinary high water mark and will then be controlled not to exceed that level and flow back into Dehn's pond. Dehn's pond will flow into the lake only when the levels raise about that mark, and under many circumstances it may not drain into the lake. Sally ¡'1e{erS, 4115 147th Lane - asked about the DNR involvement, how low the lake will be owered, and asked about the impact on the wildlife in that area. Mr. Rodeberg stated they have submitted the permit to the DNR. The DNR believes the Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 2 (Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19, Continued) wildlife will be benefitted by lowering the lake to the ordinary high water mark. At the present time the habitat has been flooded out. In talking with John Stein of the DNR this morning, they would like to lower it to 866.1, or .3 of a foot below the ordinary high water level, which is believed to keep it essentially at the ordinary high level mark. If the level remains above that mark, the DNR feels easements will need to be acquired around the lake for that additional encroachment. Councilman Elling asked if the water quality tests were done in Dehn's pond as asked for at the last meeting. Mr. Davidson stated they have not been done. (1) ,3420 156th Avenue - lives in LakeRidge and has asked the City Engineer several tlmes without response about the water problem they have. Th ere i s a large drainage easement in her front yard which has been converted into a large pond at a cost to themselves. It is flooded 15 to 20 feet over the edges of the pond. The back is a drainage easement and is extremely high, threatening some of their basements also. Does Round Lake flow toward their development, asking if this will affect them. Mr. Rodeberg stated the general ground flow is to the north and west toward the Rum River. The reason the water is high is because of a high rain cycle. It is hard to tell what, if any, effect lowering the lake will have to that area. Mayor Windschitl thought the Watershed Board looks at the effects of the lake at about 100 to 150 feet back. He didn't feel this project would either help or hurt her in any way. Her's is landlocked water. Paul Henry, 4217 149th Avenue - didn't understand the assessment process. He stated his land is high, feeling~re is no way water is ever going to get to it. He has five acres, asking what percentage of that would be assessed. Council discussion noted theoretically all the high and dry property would be assessed. Any portion of the property that drains into the benefitted area would be assessed. Mr. Henry - didn't know whether his property does or does not drain into Dehn's pond; but in looking at it, he is of the opinion that it does not. He asked why is this area singled out when the whole of the lake stands to be affected. He is a half mile from the lake on a hill. If that is to be considered, why shouldn't everyone else around the lake be assessed as well to spread out the costs of this improvement. He felt the benefits of lowering the lake affects everyone around the lake. Council and Engineers discussed how the project evolved from a problem in Dehn's Addition and several people from Lund's Round Lake Estates. The areas south and north of the lake have already paid a storm drainage assessment. There was talk of expanding the area basically north to County Road 20 because they are tributary to the improved ditch system. But that area has no immediate need. What they have done is taken an area subject to intermittent flooding in a high wet cycle. At this point there is no problem with the property immediately adjacent to Round Lake. The Dehn's pond is a wetland area that doesn't have any outlet except in a high water cycle when the water reverses and goes into the lake. They cannot bring the lake below 866.4, the established elevation of the lake; but they can bring Dehn's pond down to that elevation. That would be up to two feet lower than it has been, which is not the most desirable but makes it less of an imposition on the properties that are having prob lems. They have defined a subwatershed within the Round Lake watershed that will receive the most benefit from the proposed proj ect. For the ease of defining parcels for the benefitted area, they followed lot lines. But for the assessment hearing they would define the exact boundaries contributing to this subwatershed. The fact that property is high doesn't preclude the fact that it or a portion of it may be draining into the wetland. Other alternatives were studied and abandoned because they were much more expensive. Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 3 (Dehn's/Round Lake/ IP86-19, Continued) Mr. Henry - asked if any of the property outside of the defined assessment area drains into Round Lake. Mr. Davidson stated the areas around the lake do flow into the lake. But the improvement proposed is not necessarily to control Round Lake for their benefit. It is to control the inlet being proposed to Round Lake. They will be adding water to Round Lake and using the lake to discharge that water. Mr. Henr~ - stated as that area develops, more discharge is promoted to the lake. Mr. Davi son agreed, but it is not tributary to the improvement being proposed, which is to control the Dehn's pond area. Roy Wicklund, 4115 149th Avenue - was surpr.ised the 429 procedure is being used rather than Chapter 444. Under Chapter 444 the Council can set up a proposed general assessment and assessment diestrict and does not have to show a specific benefit. He too felt the whole lake is benefitted by this, noting at the last meeting people were concerned with and appreciated the wildlife around the lake. Doesn't everybody benefit from the wildlife improvement by lowering the lake? He stated the problem in Lund's Round Lake Estates can be solved by putting a 6-inch pump on the culvert going under Blackfoot and pump it into Round Lake as fast as it comes in. He a 1 s 0 didn't feel the problem in Dehn's will be solved by doing this. He is in favor of an improvement to lower the lake, but again stated Chapter 444 is a general assessment on properties, asking why it wasn't considered. Council noted it is being considered as an option, but continued the 429 procedure as is normally done by the City. A concern is under Chapter 444 more people are assessed to share the cost of the improvement, but those do not necessarily have any benefi t. And that becomes the issue as to whether that is proper. Mr. Wicklund - asked why isn't the area around the entire lake being considered. He felt that area is being benefitted, and Chapter 444 gives the Council a way of assessing those areas without having to show direct benefit. The wildlife benefit of the project affects everyone around the lake. Council discussion noted the lake isn't contributing to the problem in Dehn's pond. They were also concerned about assessing someone without showing a benefit, as the City has always done projects and assessed on a benefitted basis. They questioned railroading an assess- ment through just because a section of the law allows them to do it. The on ly rea 1 benefit of assessing under Chapter 444 is it is tax deductable. The on ly reason they are outletting the lake is it is being used as a pipe to get rid of some of the water from Dehn's pond and Lund's. The side benefit is to improve the wildlife, but the project is not being done for that purpose. Mr. Wicklund - still felt the Chapter 444 should be looked at to include more people 1 nto the project. Dwi~ht Pollard, 4322 145th Lane NW - felt the definition should be changed. This proJect will beneflt only one or two dozen properties. What is actually being done is distributing costs, not benefitting very many people at all. So if they are talking about distributing costs, it should be distributed to everyone who will benefi t. (app lause) Jim Whitehead, 3540 152nd Lane - on the north shore of Round Lake. He has lived ìn this area all his 11fe and thought the quality of the lake vegetation and wildlife is the best he has ever seen it. He would like to see it remain that way. To lower it would lower the ground water under his land; the trees would have to go further for water; and all the other vegetation in the area is benefitted by the abnormally high water at this time. He didn't think lowering the lake will benefit him or the wildlife that he enjoys. He didn't think his property should be deteriorated to help someone whose house has been built on property that shouldn't have been built on in the first place. (app 1ause) Public Hearings/Storm Orainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 4 (Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19, Continued) Steve Wood, 3723 145th Avenue - asked if a permit has been obtained from the DNR for this project? If so, for what elevation. If not, what elevation will be applied for. Also, he understands the southern portion of the benefitted area is in the City of Anoka. Does this City Council have the authority to initiate a project or assess residents in the City of Anoka for this project. Mr. Rodeberg explained the DNR permit has been app1jed for. They are working with John Stein, and the earliest the permit can be accepted is July 17. They applied for a permit at elevation 866.4. The DNR has told him they would give a permit at 866.1 unless easements are acquired around the entire lake. Indications are the permit will be approved at 866.1, which will essentially control the lake at approximately 866.4. Mr. Davidson explained the City does not have authority to assess properties outside their legal boundaries. The entire area is within the Rum River Watershed and that water management organization does have the authority to establish projects and could be involved if the two cities cannot resolve the problem. The intent is that the two cities will work together in some joint powers agreement. (?) - stated if they get approval for this project and don't get concurrence Trom Anoka, does that mean the people in Andover will stand the entire cost of the project. Also, when would construction start if it is ordered. If they couldn't get concurrence with Anoka on the assessment, Mayor Windschitl didn't feel it was appropriate putting all of the costs onto the Andover residents,for, in effect, draining Anoka. Councilman Lachinski felt something could be worked out with Anoka given past negotiated agreements and monies Andover owes Anoka right now. Mayor Windschitl stated the intent would be to start construction this year if the project is ordered. Lucy McKay, 3450 152nd Lane - stated last time it was noted the intent is to lower the lake one foot below the present high water level. Mr. Davidson stated the request was to lower it to 866.4 as the ordinary high water mark. Mr. Schrantz stated the City could request up to one and a half feet lower than that mark but hasn't done so. Ms. McKay - asked how many formal complaints has the city received for water problems. Mr. Schrantz stated they have had very few written ones but estimated about 10 people have been affected. Mayor Windschitl noted the area is effectively on the bottom of the horeshoe in Dehn's Addition. Ms. McKay - asked to read what the DNR has said about lowering the water level on the lake, asking to see a written report as to what is happening on the lake and what will solve the problem. Mr. Davidson thought it would all be reduced to writing before they finish the project. Mr. Stein was also at one of the meetings when this was talked about. Ms. Sonsteby - asked about the 89.6+ acres that has water diverted from the east side of Round Lake Boulevard across onto this property. What about their assessment? They are not being assessed for this project, but stated that is where most of the water problem is coming from. Council and Engineers noted those areas have already been assessed a substantial storm sewer assessment. Also, it is understood the DNR wants that area left as is to drain west of Round Lake Boulevard for the abatement that Anoka County is having to do to get County Road 116 through there. Should that not come about, the City is prepared to look at turning that drainage around to Coon Creek. Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 5 (Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19, Continued) Walter Dick, 4260 144th Lane - stated there are about 10 of them being affected by the high water. His basement is 7 inches below the level of the lake now. Today he took 22 pints of water out of the basement with a dehumidifier plus what he is pumping with the sumppump. He doesn't consider this an improvement but just wants it brought back to where it was 15 years ago. He didn't think it is fair because ten families are at the bottom of the hill that everybody up above isn't concerned. John Zillhardt, 3753 145th - has an uneasy feeling that the City should make sure this isn't going to be an engineering fiasco before going into it. About 1\ weeks ago he went over to the culvert, and it was open. The water was leaving the lake and going into the wetlands of Dehn's pond. From past experience, the lake has also risen and flooded into Dehn's pond. If there is a big rain and there is a large bounce on the lake, whose to say the bounce wouldn't be more than Dehn's pond and there could be a great deal of water backing into that area rather than draining out of it. The Engineers explained there is a flat valve on the pipe connecting the two areas so the water cannot flow from the lake into Dehn's pond, but the reverse can happen. There will be a control structure both on the south and north side of the lake. Mr. Davidson couJö not respond to the fact that the sandbags have been removed from the last time he saw it to now. Some other independent third party has removed the bags. But the last time they looked at it prior to the last meeting, that culvert was closed. Mr. Zillhardt - wanted to make sure that that wouldn't be happening all the time. Mr. Davldson explained there will be an automatic backflow check. Mr. Henry - asked if the wetland being mitigated by the County and DNR desires water, can't it be taken from Dehn's pond? He used to live in the Dehn's area also, and he doesn't know what changed the water level there either. Mr. Schrantz explained the water level has changed because of the unusually high wet cycle since 1981. He also stated the two ponds are similiar in elevation, that the Dehn's pond area cannot be drained into the Sonsteby/Good Value Homes pond area. Mr. Davidson stated during normal cycles, Round Lake is higher than Dehn's pond, which in turn is higher than the Sonsteby Good Value pond. But in a high wet cycle, the reverse is true because the outlets to the south become saturated and the ground water table rises for the entire water district. It is possible there could be some backflow between the two areas, but it would be very minimal at this elevation based on their calculations. (?) - asked what is the normal elevation of the lake and of the pond. Is the normal elevation on the pond always lower than the lake? Engineers stated normally that is true. Mayor Windschitl stated the project has been presented as having a 7/10th of a foot reduction to Dehn's pond. He explained the one proposal that does have the ability of lowering it at a preferable level is the one that outlets to the south, but that comes with a half million dollar price tag associated with it. He continued there is some willingness on Anoka's part to lower that price, but it is still a lot more money than what is being proposed in this project. (?) - didn't understand how this would work. Councilman Lachinski stated the water table in the lake will be permanently lowered 1.3 feet by a culver to the north. That is 7/l0th of a foot lower than the water table in Dehn's pond ri ght now. Mr. Wicklund - asked if the Engineers have considered putting a culvert across Round Lake Boulevard. The water at Round Lake was 34 inches higher than the other Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 6 (Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19, Continued) side of Round Lake Boulevard the last time he checked. Assuming there are already existing ditches to carry that water into Coon Creek, he felt it would be cheaper to carry it in that direction. Engineers and Council didn't feel it would be cheaper and there is a lot less trouble going northwest. Mr. Henry - stated the proposal is to pick up a net 7/10th of a foot. He stated that 1S not going to solve the problem these people have in their yards. Mr. Schrantz stated it will not solve it, but it will keep it from going up some more. The DNR has said there may be another two more years left of the wet cycle. Bob Dehn, 144th - can't understand why the people all the way around Round Lake aren't going to be in this assessment because Round Lake does drain into Dehn's pond. Mayor Windschitl stated only if the culvert is open, and it shouldn't be open. Mr. Dehn - lived out there since 1950 and used to farm the Dehn's pond. They never had a problem when the houses were built out there. They didn't have a problem until the people came out and started developing the land. The more that is being built, the higher the population, the more water that will be put into an area that has no outlet. And it will continue to come even in the dry years. Mr. Hiltz - based on the fact that the project basically does not agree with a lot of people in the general area nor agrees on the numbers included, he presented a petition including Lund's Round Lake, Johnson's Oakmount Terrace and Dehn's Addition. There are over 75 signatures against doing anything based on the data given tonight and at previous meetings. He asked that the Council drop the project and either consider something else or drop it altogether. There is over 63 percent of the total possible residents against doing anything in Lund's Round Lake Estates, over 67 percent against doing anything in Johnson's Oakmount Terrace, arid over 52 percent against the project in Dehn's Addition. This doesn't take into account people who were not contacted and absentee owners. Mr. Dick - asked for a copy of the petition. Mayor Windschitl stated it is a pub11C document. Mr. Wicklund - stated he is in favor of the project, though the problem on his property has been resolved. For the people having the problem in Dehn's Addition, if the outlet is not put in, he felt the Council should consider doing something about the amounts of water going into Round Lake other than storm water. There are a number of geothermal systems. Based on information he has, 18 homes with such systems could put 12 inches a year into Round Lake. Each system is putting out 2 million gallons of water a year or better, and the DNR requires a permit for one million gallons a year or more. He didn't believe any permits were out. If there is no outlet to the lake, water should not be added to the lake. Ms. Sonsteby - read excerpts from Minutes of September 27, 1979, and June 30, 1980, about the 48-inch pipe diverting water out of the Coon Creek Watershed to the west side of Round Lake Boulevard 40 feet from her property indicating the oversizing of the storm sewer pipe was for future construction for the City of Andover. ~e asked if there are intentions of running more water into there other than what is already going there. Mayor Windschitl stated none that he knows of. 'The only available property left there to develop would be Adolfsons,cand that will all drain toward Coon Creek. He again stated the City is prepared to turn that pipe around in the event the County and DNR do not agree to leave it in. He under- stands the DNR would seal off the Dehn's pond wetlands from the Sonsteby/Good Value pond. Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 7 (Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19, Continued) Ms. Sonsteby - stated then they will also have to seal off the lowland because ground water seeks its own level. She read a statement noting she has had water in her garage now for two years. She has a muskrat den on top of her doghouse 40 feet from her garage slab; she has bullheads swimming on her garage slab; and she has about 126 acres affected because of water diverted onto her property. She's lived here 45 years and never had water like this. And now the City is wanting to assess her land but the culprets go almost free. She still feels the county proposal going south was the best, but also agreed with lowering the lake to the north, feeling that was a necessity. She didn't feel that since water is dumped on her property by others that she should be assessed to have that taken off. She also didn't think she should be assessed if only the outlet to the north were done. Mayor Windschit1 stated clearly the proposal is any developable land is proposed to be assessed. Ms. Sonsteby - stated if that will help solve the problem and the pipe across Round Lake Boulevard is reversed back to Coon Creek plus what is coming in from Anoka, then her land would return to normal, asking why should she be assessed. Mayor Windschit1 assumed the basis for the assessment would be at some point she would develop that property and would be using it as a basis for her water on it. Ms. Sonsteby - stated she would have her engineer check that out. She again stated she lS in favor of a controlled outlet on the north side of the lake. But on the south side, she didn't see where it would help. The reduction of 7/10th of a foot is not going to help her one bit. Warren Wicklund, 4180 149th Avenue - stated he doesn't have a problem as far as his house is concerned. Water is about half way in where he has his horses, plus he has about 150 dead trees. He has planted about 500 trees to replace them, but he is in favor of the project because there are people who have problems. He feeds about 100 ducks twice a day and enjoys the wildlife, but he didn't think they will still be there in a year if the water stays high. Roy Wicklund - stated since a permanent structure is proposed on the south end, what happened to the option of putting a pump in there and pumping water from Dehn's pond into Round Lake. That would control the water to whatever level they want it. How much more would it cost to do that? Mr. Davidson stated the proposal is the least-cost alternative to solve the problem that has a potential of getting worse. The proposal doesn't preclude putting in a pump, but the problem is the ground water profile indicates it is questionable how much water could be pumped to control the ground water in an isolated area around Dehn's pond. The potential is the water will move back in as fast as it can be pumped out. The proposal is not dealing with all the problems but is just to control an elevation now that is not desirable. Gary Potter, 4250 145th Avenue - stated he is not in favor of the project as being proposed but feels something should be done for those homeowners who are having a problem through no fault of their own. Everyone has agreed there is less than a dozen homes that will benefit. He felt a great deal of liberty was taken when drawing the lines around the benefitted area. He felt it would be more fair to use that same liberty and define that assessment area to include all of, the area that drains into that and contributes to the problem. Secondly, he felt a project that is not being supported by a majority of the residents in the assessment area and which probably would not be effective in relieving the problems the City is trying to address is a waste of time and effort. (applause) Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 8 (Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19, Continued) (1) - is opposed to the project but understands the point of the people who are havlng problems. He felt to define the people who are receiving benefit should be defined to include a much:wider area to increase the base of the assessment. Ms. Sonsteby - asked if the cost estimate includes any money for easements. Mayor Wlndschitl stated there is nothing in there for easement acquisition. Steve Wood - noted he petitioned homeowners around the lake and found nearly unanlmous concurrence among the lake owners that there is significant risk in undertaking this project of draining Oehn's pond through the lake. 25 of the 27 residents signed the petition to not lower the lake below 866.4 and 21 out of 27 did not approve of this project at all. He also stated that this spring water was flowing out of the lake through the culvert into the Dehn's pond area. Water does not have a tendency to flow north, though it probably could be made to do so. He stated there has been a number of statements about the effects on the wildlife, but there has been no one of an expert opinion as to what the effect would be on the wildlife to lowering the water level of the lake. There was discussion to order a water quality study on the lake and of Dehn's pond, and he was disappointed that there is no evidence presented at this meeting on the water quality. He felt the Council would be negligent by making a decision without a very thorough knowledge of the water quality. He questioned whether the ten homes affected is a situation that needs to be dealt with this year. If it is, he is of the opinion that there are better alternatives to solve the Dehn's pond problem. He didn't believe there was a significant problem in the Lund's area apart from perhaps one home- owne r . He stated he would prefer the Council seek other alternatives than to drain the Dehn's pond area through the lake. Mr. Wood stated the lake is not a drainage ditc.h; it is a valuable natural resource, urging the City Council to preserve its integrity. Ms. Sonsteby - reminded the Counccil öfithe pilttures she presented at the last Council meeting of pollution coming with the storm water from Anoka over her land. She stated this is a very serious problem and would hate to see that go into Round Lake. Howard Ech, 4175 147th Lane - is relatively new to the area. Water at its current helght ~not a problem where he lives. He is concerned over the benefit and questioned how benefit is determined. It appears there areup to ten hŒles that this would directly benefit by lowering the water level. But he felt it became evident tonight that only a minimal reduction of 7/10th of a foot is what is being talked about, stating that will not correct the current situation. He stated he is against the project. If it does not really resolve the current situation, he questioned what any future benefit would be received by this project. Brian Nystrom, 4075 149th Avenue - stated he is against the project in its entirety. He failed to see how thlS proJect would benefit his property even one dollar. He hoped the two petitions showed clearly~ that the majority of people are against this will be seriously taken into consideration. R. Wicklund - stated one of the property owners couldn't be here tonight. His questlon was if the project doesn't go through, is there any objection by the Council that the culvert be closed off on Blackfoot and a pump installed to pump any water that is a problem into Round Lake. Council noted the DNR is saying if more water is added to the lake, there is a potential damage to the property owners around the lake. Also, the question would be what is the natural flow of water, as any natural flow is not interrupted. Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 9 (Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19, Continued) Mr. Nystrom - asked the process now that the testimony has been heard. Nayor Windschit1 explained the procedure of Council discussion and action. Nr. Henry - stated selectively there are many of them that can prove this would not lmprove their property. He stated he could prove that he is not contributing to the problem, but he doesn't want to do that. If in fact the motion passed and it could be demonstrated selectively that this did not improve certain properties that were included in the benefitted area, that would impose an additional burden on a more select group, feeling that should be weighed, as well. Elaine (1) 4240 144th Lane - stated for all the people stating they aren't benefitted by the project, the rain lands on their property and drains down to their Addition. So actually they are being benefitted because it is going into their storm sewer and into her land. Mr. Henry - stated it can be demonstrated selectively that that is not the case. Cheryl Craig, 4110 149th - didn't understand how anyone could say they were for or against something without knowing the cost of the assessments at the beginning of this process. The letter stated $92,000; tonight it was noted at $63,000. When the petition went around, she didn't believe the people realized the cost per person. She didn't think they can say they are for or against it until they know what it is going to cost them. Nancy Dehn, 14445 Guarani - stated if they would quit running water through the storm sewer lnto Dehn's pond, they would not have a problem. If the northern end is not opened up, they too will have a problem because the water will get higher and higher. Councilman Lachinski stated that only so much water can be put into this area because there is no outlet. There are some potential outlets that will all cost money. There are some private sewer systems in that area, and a health hazard can be created if they don't solve this problem. (1) - stated if there is a health hazard, it is not only to the people on the southwest corner. Ms. Sonsteby - just wants the water off her land that has been dumped on there. Then she wouldn't have a problem. MOTION by Lachinski, Seconded by Elling, that we close the public input portion to the public hearing. Motion carried unanimously. Council then discussed the options available to approve or deny the project as proposed, ask for additional information, or direct other options to be looked into. Councilman Lachinski felt it is clear the DNR is asking to have the lake lowered to the ordinary high water mark. He wondered if the storm drainage from the east side of Round Lake Boulevard were reversed to flow to Coon Creek, is that an alternative to draining any of this area. Nr. Davidson stated no. Counci lman Lachinski then stated if that water can't be drained through Anoka, the only alternative is the proposal before them tonight. Mr. Davidson then explained why reversing the flow from east of Round Lake Boulevard wouldn't have a significant affect on draining Dehn's pond through the Sonsteby/ Good Value ponds. The present proposal is really a temporary measure to retain the present elevation or lower them slightly and not to remove the ground water condition which has changed because of the high wet cycle. Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 10 (Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19, Continued) Mayor Windschit1 asked if it were possible to install a discharge pipe into Anoka at 866, would that have a material benefit of pulling all the water levels down to 866. Mr. Davidson stated it would have virtually the same effect as going to the north on the Dehn's pond and the tributary area. The lake may stay higher but it would generally flow to the south. He also stated the proposal would not solve the problem for Ms. Sonsteby's basement, as that is below elevation 866.4 Right now the elevation is at 865, so at least two feet would need to be taken off that area in order to solve Ms. Sonsteby's problem. But she is included in the assessment area for this project. Several Councilmen expressed concern over this. Mayor Windschit1 still felt the southern route through Anoka is the best solution. He stated Anoka's biggest concern is the ability of handling the water without a ponding system. It may be easier if there is an elevation on the culvert that both Andover and Anoka can agree to. The pipe would be about $60,000. Councilman Elling stated this proposal is the only economically feasible one out of all that has been talked about the last few years. Either the project should be ordered as is, or the assessment area should be re-eva1uated or drop the project. Councilman Ortte1 explained the assessment area is actually a contributing area which is an engineering question. He questioned where the bullheads came from on Ms. Sonsteby's property. He had never been aware that the lake overflowed into Dehn's pond, which means the lake is flooding that area through the culvert. If this project is ordered, he felt that pipe should be closed with concrete so that the lake does not flood the Dehn's pond area. Councilman Elling questioned whether this entire problem shouldn't be looked at as a watershed project. Mr. Schrantz stated there are many watershed projects, but they do not have a plan. He also didn't think they would be able to act on this until next year. Councilman Elling asked Mr. W·ood if the residents along the lake understood they would get requests from the DNR for easements on their property if the elevation is not lowered. Mr. Wood - stated that wasn't mentioned in the petition nor specifically discussed. All the property owners around the lake have lost some shoreline to the high water. He felt most of the property owners weren't concerned about an additional easement. Only one property owner was concerned about the loss of shoreline. She signed the third petition, wanting the water lower because she lost her shoreline. Councilman Elling stated he wanted to see tests for water quality on both Dehn's pond and the lake before making a decision. Council then discussed the possibility of going back to Anoka with another proposal in an attempt: to obtain a southern route to drain Dehn's pond. Mr. Davidson explained to go through Anoka, the proposal would be to assimilate the bulk of the flow within Andover, and Andover would only be using their system over a short period of time during high wet cycles. He felt that would be a more permanent solution and a better control elevation. This alternative was proposed to alleviate the problem yet this year. Mr. Schrantz expressed concern that the interconnect between the lake and the ponds is not known. Councilman Lachinski asked if the assessable area would be the same whether the drainage of Dehn's pond goes south or north. Mr. Rodeberg stated the Lund's area would not benefit going south; it would only be benefitted by the lake control. Councilman Ortte1 felt it is unlikely an agreement can be reached with Anoka regarding a southern route and thought the people should be given an answer this evening. Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 11 (Dehn's/Round Lake/IP86-19, Continued) MOTION by Elling, Seconded by Lachinski, that we continue the meeting to the 15th and direct TKDA and Jim (Schrantz) or any of the Council to talk to Anoka about buying into their system again; and direct TKDA to do water quality sampling of Dehn's pond and Round Lake. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, I-No (Orttel) vote. MOTION by Elling, Seconded by Lachinski, to change the previous motion to contlnue the meeting to July 17. Motion carried on a 4-Yes, I-No (Orttel) vote. Meeting continued to July 17, 1986. 9:48 p.m. ENCHANTED DRIVE/IP86-15 Mayor Windschitl noted a problem has arisen in that:the two property owners of the ditching system are objecting to any water being put into their ditches. Lester Hu~hes! 16445 Valley Drive - understands the City wants to drain the area through hlS dltches. He is a garden farmer; the ditches are private. The City has already dumped 70,000 gallons of water on him on a Wednesday, and the ditches were level on Friday. He asked if it is legal for the City to do that without asking permission. Mayor Windschit1 noted the Attorney is not present this evening. Mr. Schrantz felt the water always had a right to drain to the lowland. He put in the ditches to farm the lowland, but that is the natural low area. If a project was done, the City would not try to flood Mr. Hughes' property. Mr. Hughes - stated his ditches run into Knoll's and then into No.6 ditch and to the rlver. Mr. Knoll keeps the county ditch open from the river up. But three times last year and twice this year the river backed up. So if they get additional water, their crops would be under water. He hasn't heard any proposals about maintaining the ditches. He has the property up for sale and doesn't really want the water problems. Mayor Windschitl stated if the City made an arrangement to use a private ditch, they would also enter into a maintenance agreement as well. Mr. Hughes - stated his ditches are 20 to 30 years old and are not in the best shape. It has been about 20 years since they have been cleaned except for hand cleaning every year. No one from the Knoll property was present. Mr. Schrantz stated they have looked at the City contracting the labor, quotes have been received to install culverts for $1,200 each, plus legal and engineering costs. The revised cost would be between $4,000 and $5,000 depending on how difficult it is to get easements. Mr. Hughes - asked if it wouldn't be better to drain west because that is where the ponds are. Mr. Schrantz stated without Enchanted Drive in there, it would drain naturally to where they pumped. They feel some work would need to be done north of 160th Lane to dig out the area to make the water flow. Mr. Schrantz stated the area doesn't have to be drained out fast, but could be metered out at a slower rate. He felt there are going to be continuing problems off and on if something isn't done. to outlet the area. Mr. Rodeberg stated the revised cost of $4,950 reduces the assessments to $130 per lot over 38 units, but that does not include acquisition of any easements. Rick Olson, 3936 Enchanted Drive - stated if there are going to be pothole problems ln Andover and roads are belng put in without looking at those problems first, it seems to him that some ordinance should be established to look at this type of problem when roads are put in in the future. If this had been done when their roads were put in, there wouldn't be this problem. That is what has aggravated him. Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 12 (Enchanted Drive/IP86-15, Continued) Council stated normally storm sewers are put in, but recollected in that area it was quite expensive and the residents opted not to put it in. Also, in the 1970s there weren't a lot of water problems either. Mr. Olson - thought that at least the newest road that went in should have had a culvert put in under it. Mayor Windschitl agreed that that should have been put in from Fox Meadows. Roger Loberg, 15830 Xenia Street - are they intending to drain the pond completely. Mr. Schrantz stated no, just brlng it down one to two feet. Mr. LOberfi - thought there are about six houses that should have never been built, tee11ng t at is a city problem. Mayor Windschitl explained the difficulty, especially in the older plats, is unless it is a protected wetland, the owner has a right to build on the lot if he can make it comply with the ordinances. Once a lot is of record, the City has to have a reason for saying it cannot be built on; otherwise the owner has a right to build if it can meet the ordinances. Mr. Loberg - stated when those houses were being built they noted they would be nothing but a problem area. He also didn't think his lot should be affected by the project. He is 1,000 feet from the pond, guaranteeing none of his water goes th ere. Council noted that is an engineering question; and if it doesn't go in that direction, it wouldn't be assessed. That would be determined for the assessment hearing if the project is ordered. Tom Turnbam, 3889 Enchanted Drive - stated many people within the outlined area have told him they never received a letter from the Council regarding this hearing. He also stated the elevations maps are outdated since the roads were put in there because the roads have been raised up in many areas. Because of the elevation of the road, many of those areas cannot drain in that direction. His lot is one of them. Why was the contractor allowed to subdivide Fox Meadows without putting the culvert under the road? Is there any way of going back to the developer on that cu 1 vert?'. Mayor Windschitl stated the Council understands that argument and will address it later. MOTION by Lachinski, Seconded by Elling, to close the public input portion of the hearing. Motion carried unanimously. Council agreed an error was made in accepting Fox Meadows without requiring that culvert to be installed. Since it is the City's error, that amount should be paid for by the City. Council also agreed the Engineers should meet with the two property owners in an attempt to acquire easements to drain that area to the Rum River prior to making a decision on this project. MOTION by Elling, Seconded by Lachinski, that we continue the public hearing to the 17th of July at 8 o'clock on Enchanted Drive; and to direct the City Engineer to meet with those parties for establishing a joint use maintenance agreement on the private ditches; and revise the numbers taking out the culvert across 160th Lane and come back with the revised numbers on the project. DISCUSSION: Mr. Davidson asked if the cost should include ditch maintenance and easements but remove the cu 1 vert. Councilman Elling stated yes. Mike Case, 4036 Genie Drive - stated his dad was an assessor with the City of Mlnneapolis for 25 years and has never seen a community having to pay for easements directly affected for any kind of problem. Mayor Windschitl explained in the growing communities where such easements need to be acquired, that becomes a part of the totà1 cost of the project. Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 13 (Enchanted Drive/IP86-15, Continued) Mr. Case - stated when they brought the road in on Genie Drive, they first engineered the water to run west. Then everyone was reassessed, his cost being $358 extra, to run the water east. Council noted if a storm water assessment has been made against a parcel, the City' doesn't have the ability to assess it again. The Engineers were directed to research that. Mr. Turnbom - stated on Enchanted Drive,on the south side of the pond there were two culverts that were filled in by the contractor to put in two lots. Will that be assessed to the contractor or to the rest of the area to clean those out? One is in the middle of a person's house, and it will either need to be removed or abandoned. Mr. Schrantz explained there is no ditch in front of that house and evidently the contractor filled the city ditch. It is not part of this project. He felt the first effort should be to go to the builder. Mr. Turnbom - stated once these culverts are cleaned, it would drain to the pond and would become a part of this project. Mr. Schrantz was asked to check into that further. Mr. Olson - asked about the amount of the assessment. He was concerned about the assessment area being reduced thereby adding more costs to those left in the area. Council noted the assessment area cannot be expanded unless another public hearing is called, but it can be reduced if it is found that a specific area does not drain into the project area. It was also noted that generally the majority are not in favor of a project such as this unless they are under water. Mr. Turnbom - asked if the Council will make sure that everyone involved will get a letter. Mr. Schrantz asked for the names of those who did not get letters. Also, the property owner as recorded received the notice. No letters are proposed to be sent out between now and the 17th of July. Timothy Olson, 4130 160th Lane - stated he did not get a letter. After some d1Scuss10n, it was noted he 1S not proposed to be assessed for the project. Lois Bordwell - stated the line is drawn through half of her property. Mr. Davidson explained the proposal would be to charge one-half of the unit assessment. Motion carried unanimously. Meeting continued to July 17, 1986. 10:30 p.m. RED OAKS/IP86-16 Mr. Rodeberg reviewed the proposed project to outlet both Red Oaks ponds to Coon Creek. Donald Hagen, 2016 138th - questioned the level of the water in the ponds. Mr. Rodeberg stated the ordinary high water is based on its level about 10 years ago. He continued that the total estimated cost to provide an outlet to both ponds is $66,830. He noted the proposed assessed areas that drain into either pond that have not yet been assessed for storm sewer. The lots notified from the Red Oaks Addition are those that were only partially assessed for water that flowed toward the street into Red Oaks Addition at the time of the street improvement, The other portion of those properties flowed toward the ponds and therefore was not assessed at that time. Public Hearings/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 14 (Red Oaks/IP86-16, Continued) Diane Kretsch, 13838 Quinn Street - questioned whether the ones that naturally drain are making the ponds overflow and those that drain through the storm sewer system are not causing the overflow. The city bought that property thinking that would be sufficient for all the storm sewers. Council and Engineers explained only that portion.ofthe lot which was not assessed previously will pay for this project. And this assessment is proposed at 2.2 cents per square foot whereas that portion that was assessed previously with the street project paid 7.7 cents per square foot. Mr. Hagen - asked how it is proved what they were assessed before and at what cost. Mr. Rodeberg stated he looked at the assessment rolls and exact amounts paidk, number of square feet paid for, and assessment rate. The proposal is to now be assessed for that area that flows toward the pond. Mr. Hagen - stated only a few yards are involved with the water problem. Wouldn't lt be cheaper to fill in and make the ponds so they can't flow back onto the yards. There never was a problem until the city started pumping into those ponds. He stated he pumped the water out of his back yard in the last three weeks. Unfortunately, it rained Saturday night, and the storm sewers again drained into those ponds and the water has come right back. But it was dry and he has hired Nordeen to fill in his back yard so it will solve his problem. Mayor Windschitl asked how many lots could be filled. Mr. Hagen - stated two of them. Dennis Zaske, 2034 138th Avenue - remembered at the time the streets were done that the front part of thelr property drains to the road, and the back part drains to the pond and wasn't assessed. Don Youngberg, 13802 Nightingale - stated his property is affected badly by this problem. When he came to the meeting in 1976 or '77, they were concerned about that, but the engineers stated there would be no problem. And if there were a problem, the City would fix it. But now the City wants to assess them for it. Council noted there never was a plan to put pipe into that pond until some future development came through there. The intent at the time the ponds were purchased was that they would be used as surrounding areas developed. It was known those ponds would have to be expanded some day to accommodate those developments, including what is being proposed to the south and southwest of Red Oaks at this time. Mr. Zaske - asked what the cost will be to them for this project. Who is going to pay for the $63,000 projects if there are only 22 property owners. The letter received is very misleading as to what the individual assessments would be. Council noted most of the costs will be borne by the new development coming in, the presently undeveloped land contributing to the ponds. Mr. Haren - stated he attended the meeting when this was first proposed, stating Counci man Orttel stated Red Oaks would not be assessed for this because they were assessed one other time. Why can't the City just bring in some fill and fill in the two bad areas. Councilman Orttel stated they would have to be raised six feet because the new building coming in will flood the ponds considerably without an outlet to it. Also, legally the City can't assess for something more than once over the life of the bond issue. Only the unassessed portion of these lots can be assessed at this time. Clark Cox, 13848 Quinn - stated he has no water problem at all and takes great offense at having to pay if it can be solved cheaper than $66,000. Also, he takes offense at paying more for more housing coming in. He also had a difficult Public Hearing/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 15 (Red Oaks/IP86-16, Continued) time believing the water tha tcomes from his land is causing a great deal of problems because of the sand. He didn't think 22 of them should have to pay for the problems of a very few people, thinking there is a better way to solve the problem. Mr. Hagen - stated they{have no water in their basement. The Eng,ineers reviewed the proposed assessment area, noting that several property owners are paying for the bulk of the project because of the amount of property they have. It was estimated the assessment would be $955/acre, or typically $150 or so for the Red Oaks lots. Mayor Windschitl asked why there isn't an assessment district across the road. The Engineers explained there is no pipe across the road. Mr. Zaske - stated Anoka Auto Wrecking drains into the pond. Mr. Davidson stated they are included in the assessment district. Discussion noted the Duerr property is not included in the district. Mr. Davidson stated they have previously been assessed. Council questioned that, asking that that be researched again. Bill SChaeferk 13828 Quinn Street - stated when they worked with the storm sewer off Bunker La e Boulevard, the water pumped all went on the north side of Bunker Lake Boul evard. He didn't believe any of that water was pumped on the other side of the road. Are they saying it is going to be pumped across there now. The Engineers stated no. Mr. Hagen - stated they first pumped it into the Red Oaks pond but then went to Coon Creek. Mr. Rodeberg explained the contractor was told they could not pump into the ponds. As soon as they realized what was being done, they made the contractor pump to the creek. There has been so many well points that probably by now the water in the pond has actually been lowered somewhat. Mr. Youngberg - asked about the damage to his property ri9ht now. Can't the City pump it or do anything about it. He has lost thousands of dollars and was also at the original hearings stating there would be problems with that pond. Now a third of his property is under water. The posts are rotting on his privacy fence. He called and asked if the City could pump and was told no, there is no place to put it. So they have also gotten then their own pump. They pumped it on their lawns and on the high ground around them. Council and Engineers discussed some ways of helping Mr. Youngberg, but noted the City cannot run water onto private property, not knowing where else it could be pumped to. There was also the question of expense involved for renting a pump and hose. Mr. Youngberg - stated it is possible to pump out their pond because they did it once. Thelr pond is higher than the Red Oaks storm drainage pond. Mr. Hagen - stated it has always been dry. The last few years it started getting wet, and this year is the worst. What would happen if that pond could be lowered a little. Mr. Schrantz estimated it would cost about $1,000 a day without manpower, and he didn't know where it could be pumped other than running it over to the westerly Red Oaks pond. Council discussed the possibility of pumping the water out of Mr. Youngberg's and Mr. Hagen's yards with the Engineers. Mr. Hagen - stated once it is dry for a couple weeks, he has contracted to have flll brought in, which will solve his problem. Public Hearing/Storm Drainage Projects June ~~ 1986 - r~i nutes Page lþ (Red Oaks/IP86-16, Continued) Mr. Davidson stated the proposal was to lay the storm sewer pipe with the sewer and water project in that vicinity, which is expected to start after Labor Day. Council discussion also noted the proposal is to provide an outlet to landlocked ponds, predicting future development in that area will create more problems if this is not done. It is also the most cost effective method by doing it at this time. Doug Foster, 13715 Xavis - asked why the project on Bunker Lake Boulevard was just stopped. He also asked about leveling in front of his place. tk. Davidson explained they ran into some unstable soils conditions. So the project was terminated and will be rebid. They are talking to the contractor every day to get the area cleaned up. Don WhiðP1er, 138th - has an· apartment house on 138th. The water was high this year an up to about half of his lawn; but it did not affect him. And he did not have any water in that building. He asked what the assessments will be for that apartment building which is on 1~ or 2 acres. He is in the process of selling and this process is holding him up. Mr. Rodeberg stated the assessment is $955/ acre as close as they can estimate it. Mr. Hagen - asked what's the most it can cost those in Red Oaks. Engineers explained it various for each parcel depending on the amount of assessable property. Mayor Windschit1 suggested asking Mr. Menkveld for permission to pump the water out of the pond onto his property in an effort to pump out Mr. Hagen and Mr. Youngberg. Mr. Davidson explained the wetland area is quite vast. Bob (1) ,13754 Quinn Street - asked if that farm area could be looked at again regarding an assessment, thinking it has never been assessed. Council agreed, noting the intent is to pick up all of the property that hasn't been previously assessed. Mr. Schrantz stated they were not notified of this hearing. MOTION by Lachinski, Seconded by Orttel, to close the public input portion of the public hearing for Red Oaks ponds. Motion carried unanimously. Mr. Rodeberg stated he has the individual estimated assessments for the project. Mr. Hagen - stated he was just told his assessment would be $340. He found that hard to believe. Council also discussed what had taken place with the storm sewer assessment when it was originally assessed in Red Oaks and Northwoods. The question was what did those in Northwoods pay for the ponds and did they absorb more of the pie that would be used for this project to drain through. Are there some oversizing costs that should be considered here. Mr. Davidson stated they are not intending to allow that to drain through during the times the storm sewer would be used by Northwoods. They would have a control structure. Council asked that that be researched further. Council asked that the individual assessments for the lots in Red Oaks be listed for the next meeting. Discussion was also on the length of the assessment roll as to whether it would be five or ten years. No decision was made at this time. It was also agreed the individual assessments for lots in Red Oaks would be at City Hall for anyone wishing to call in to find out their assessment. Council also noted if the bids come in over 5 percent of the engineer's estimate, the residents would be so notified. MOTION by Elling, Seconded by Lachinski, that we continue the Red Oaks Storm Drainage problem to the 17th of July. Motion carried unanimously. Hearing continued to July 17, 1986. Public Hearing/Storm Drainage Projects June 25, 1986 - Minutes Page 11Ji, UNIVERSITY EXTENSION/SIKORA Mayor Windschitl stated he has met with Mr. Sikora and has reached an agreement to have some dirt hauled by the Andover truck and loader. They have also found a place where Mr. Sikora is willing to let the City take the dirt from. Counci 1 agreed. MEET WITH ANOKA/SW DRAINAGE CounciJmen Elling and Lachinski agreed to meet with representatives from the City of Anoka in another attempt to reach an agreement to have the storm drainage in the southwestern portion of Andover drain through the Anoka storm drainage system. The proposal would be to place the pipe across Bunker Lake Boulevard at elevation 866 and discuss the possibility of having future development pay as it occurs. Council also asked Mr. Schrantz to find out just what is taking place regarding the DNR requirements for the County to construct County 116. The right-of-way acquisition from the City is to be on the July 1 agenda. APPROVAL OF CLAIM MOTION by Ortte1, Seconded by Elling, to approve a Check 11231 to the DNR for the permit for Crosstown Alignment for $50. Motion carried unanimously. ABATEMENT/MPCA/DISCUSSION Council briefly discussed the June 24, 1986, memorandum from d'Arcy Bosel1 regarding the request for authorization to issue a request for abatement action on the Heidelberger property. Council also directed Mr. Schrantz to have Lou's Tire Town clean u'p the tires around its business. COMMUNITY BLOCK GRANT FUNDS MOTION by Elling, Seconded by Orttel, to approve the Community Development Block Grant Program between Anoka County and Andover, and that Ted (Lachinski) and Mike (Knight) will, before June 30, submit the project. Motion carried unanimously. MEET WITH PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MOTION by Orttel, Seconded by Lachinski, that we schedule a meeting with the Planning Commission on the 8th of July, with the alternate for the 10th of July if the agenda for the 8th is too full to handle the matters to be discussed. Motion carried unanimously. (r1ain topic: MUSA boundary and others) CHANGE ORDER/TELEMETERING SYSTEM MOTION by Elling, Seconded by Orttel, that we continue the complete, finish date for the te1emetering for the water tower until July 15. Motion carried unanimously. Mr. Davidson stated the water tower completion date is July 1, with liquidated damages of $250 per day after that date. If it is not completed on time, he stated the intent would be to assess the liquidated damages against the contractor. MOTION by Orttel, Seconded by Elling, to adjourn. Motion carried unanimously. Meeting adjourned at 11:44 p.m. ~f" 11y '"bma".. Marc ~~~~~ Recor 'ng Secretary