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HomeMy WebLinkAboutIM June 19, 1980 ~ 01 ANDOVER INFORMATIONAL MEETING - STREET AND DRAINAGE IN NORTHWEST AREA JUNE 19, 1980 MINUTES A Special Informational Meeting of the Andover City Council was called to order by Mayor Jerry Windschit1 On June 19, 1980, 7:30 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, f0r t~e purpose of discussing a proposed street and drainage improvement for all unsurfaced streets north of 169th Avenue NW and west of Tulip Street NW in the northwest area of Andover. Councilmen present: Jacobson, Lachinski, Ortte1, Peach Councilmen absent: None Also present: City Engineer, Larry Winner; and interested residents Mayor Windschit1 explained that the purpose of the meeting is to inform the residents of the approximate costs for improving the streets in their area and to obtain the reaction of the residents to such an improvement. The Council has received a petition from 172nd Avenue NW requesting street improvement, and there are some drainage problems in the area that need to be corrected. Mr. Winner reviewed the Preliminary Report on the 1980 Street Drainage Improvement, Commission No. 7379-80, as prepared by TKDA, noting the location of the streets, .the proposed storm sewer drainage and street design, with the proposed assessment for street and storm sewer to be at the rate of $16.75 per assessable front foot, and reviewed the project schedule, estimating it could be completed by the contractor by November,15, depending on the weather conditions in the fall. Terry Hausam, 3731 172nd Lane NW - owns property adjoining the City's property with a pond, and presently all the water runs to that low area and on his property up to his drainfie1d. He feared that once the roads are in, he'll be getting more drainage problems and will end up with water problems in his house. There are some existing culverts, but they are all filled up with sand. He is in favor of the roads but wanted to bring the drainage problem to the City's attention. (Mr. Winner felt that part of the present problem is that the culvert is filled up with sand, which will be helped by paving the roads. He didn't feel it would be any worse than it is now because the water will be following the existing grades. Other discussion noted that the intention of the new street system is not to carry water on the street; and that when the City does a project, it cannot make the water problem worse than it presently is, and it should improve it. There may be some other options to that problem, such as deepening the pond, etc. That problem can be studied in more detail.) Bill Beck, 17958 Aztec - was concerned about the amount of money, as he can't afford it. He was also concerned about the speed of traffic on the roads once they are surfaced, especially since there are a significant number of small children on that end of Aztec. Also, there are a number of adult ball games at the park, and that tends to create a lot of high speed traffic. The condition of the road today somewhat reduces the speed of traffic along that area. He felt putting in streets would make it a drag strip. Don Anderson, 3621 173rd - asked how the lot would be assessed that is fronting on 173rd, backs on 174th, and sides on Tulip. It is a total of 1.7 acres. Also, who pays for the vacant lots on the roads? He is opposed to the improvement. (Council discussion was that this lot is a unique situation and was not sure how it would be assessed. It was suggested that during the recess this be researched in the assessment policy. The vacant lots are paid for by the owners of record.) Dave Gapp, 17421 Blackfoot Street - his lot is 290 x 160 feet, with 290 facing the road. He asked if there 1S a policy to equalize that out. (Mayor Windschitl explained that that formula is in existence, with the intent to equalize it out.) ... 0--_'.'._ __ Informational Meeting - Street and Drainage in Northwest Area June 19, 1980 - Minutes Page 2 Mr. Gapp - was undecided at the moment, but felt if 173rd between Round Lake and Tulip 1S not paved, then it is foolish to put pavement in this area. A1 Putz, 17216 Aztec - is in favor of putting in the roads. Gary White, 3921 174th - felt this is the same proposal as presented in 1978; prices are about the same; it was voted down then for about the same reasons. He wondered why it was brought up again. In 1978 he checked with real estate agents and found that the increase in value of property is considerably less than what they will pay for the streets. He still felt that $5,000 for 300 feet of blacktop in front of his house is too much money. (Mayor Windschitl explained the reason it is being heard is partly based on the pet it i on rece i ved from 172nd wi th 40 peop 1 e in favor, 5 opposed.) Mr. White - questioned the validity of any petition at this time because figures are be1ng presented for the first time tonight. (Mayor Windschitl explained that the engineers can give an approximate price based on projects bid recently for a given street section. There is also another petition before the Council this evening.) Mr. White - felt the figures were reasonably accurate but questioned where the City is getting 8 percent money. (Municipal bonds.) He questioned if it costs the City less to maintain a bituminous street than a dirt street, and questioned with the poor job of maintenance on the dirt streets, whether the City has anyone competent enough to put in bituminous ones. There have been some things done on the corner of 174th and Blackfoot which he felt were ridiculous, and he expressed concern as to who oversees this. He knew a lot of money has been spent on that drainage problem and felt that it was very poorly done. (Mayor Windschit1 explained that there have been several different attempts to solve that drainage problem. With the existing conditions and sand roads, the Council and Engineers are basically of the opinion that the only way the problem is going to be solved is to carry the water with a birm section and blacktop road.) Mr. White - admitted that some of the things done have helped the situation, but there were many things done that he personally observed being done two or three times, and that is being done with his tax dollars. He was concerned about it. And with tarring the roads, even more of his money is being spent. (Mayor Windschit1 explained that the project is bid out and is under the control of the consulting engineer. The cost of maintenance between bituminous and dirt streets is debatable and can be a tossup. Also, there is nothing to work with in the roads as far as grading and keeping them in good condition. From the existing petition on 174th, 16 are in favor and 5 opposed.) Mr. White - asked to have the petition read. He then questioned the legality of that at $15 a front foot and asked when the information was available for it. He felt that people signing the petition didn't have all the information and didn't feel the petition was valid for the final vote On the issue. (Council explained that this is the same practice that has been used in the past. This is an informational hearing and costs on the petitions are based on simi1iar-type projects that have been bid recently. This is not the legal public hearing.) Jim Davis. 3660 174th Avenue - questioned the petitions, as last time there was a great deal of confuslon with people changing their minds, etc. Some lots on 174th used to belong to a developer; he has heard they are now with the County Auditor for taxes, and he didn't know how that would be handled. Also, last time the concrete curb and gutters were proposed because at that time they were told that the only effective storm sewer system would be with the curb. He felt that if the streets are put in as being proposed this evening, drainage problems like that of Mr. Hausam would be multiplied. He didn't think any of them are ready to afford the improvement just to fix a few drainage problems. It appears that a few people are taking it into their hands to attempt to get this thing through. He didn't think it was fair for all of them until everyone had an opportunity to express their opinion either at a public hearing or on a petition. (Mayor Ilindschitl explained that if the project is ordered, there may be two areas that may need the COncrete curb and gutter to control the drainage, the problem on the end of Blackfoot and the cu1 de sac on 180th.) Informational Meeting - Street and Drainage in Northwest Area June 19, 1980 - Minutes Page 3 Mr. Davis - stated he never has any drainage problems because it is absorbed into the sand almost 1mmediately; but when bituminous streets are put in, he felt the water would start going toward the problem On 174th and Blackfoot. (Mayor Windschit1 explained that the remainder of the section is being proposed to run off to the sides of the road, intending to keep the water localized as much as possible.) Mr. Beck - this is almost the same situation as previously. People on 172nd and 174th have some problems and have submitted the petition. There is no one on the north end of Aztec above 177th who is interested in the road. He suggested to stop where the people want it. Dennis Nelson, 4015 176th Avenue NW - understands the problem on the corner of 174th and Blackfoot, but he has no desire to see the high and dry section of Blackfoot Street from 174th north be paved, as he didn't see the necessity. Secondly, that portion of 176th that curves to the cu1 de sac is essentially his frontage with his lot just about cornering on 176th and Blackfoot. There is only one neighbor to the west who is not here tonight. He didn't see the necessity for him or his neighbor to have the bituminous going down that street. The person having the lot to his west lives in north Minneapolis and has told him they have no intention of building on it but sees that property as a long-term investment. There are no plans to build on the south of 176th, as that is held in common by several of them. He also shares Mr. Beck's concern about the increased speed in traffic, as he has seen it increase on that section of 173rd that is paved between Tulip and Round Lake Boulevard. Larry 3749 172nd Lane NW - originally petitioned for 172nd, which has since expanded substantially. He asked if their street by itself can be considered or is it take it or leave it for the entire area. What happens to the costs on a smaller scale project? (Mayor Windschit1 explained the procedure, with the Council deciding which portion of the project will be ordered for feasibility study and public hearing. The Council can react to their petition singly if it comes down to that. Mr. Winner didn't feel that the cost per front foot would change appreciably on the smaller project.) Brian Johnson, 18076 Aztec Street NW - felt that the total cost was above his budget and lS aga1nst the blacktop. Harold Kirkeide, base of the cu1 de sac on 180th - west of Roger Toikka's property. Mr. 101kka has a severe problem, but there 1S a natural drain to the southeast of his property. If the blacktop is put in, he is concerned that the water is not diverted from that normal drain and flow onto his property. Is there any guarantee that the project will take care of the drainage and not cause more problems? He wondered if the equalization of the assessment will include the drive coming down 180th. How is that assessed? Two pieces of property along 180th Lane have frontage on Aztec, with basically three properties facing the cu1 de sac of 180th. He also asked if there was a petition circulated on 180th. (Discussion noted that no petition was circulated on 180th. The project can be reduced but not enlarged. Basically the water has to follow its natural path, which shouldn't be obstructed. Once the consulting firm doing the project has designed and signed the plans, they have to stand behind the project to see that it is done properly. If there is a design error, the firm would have an obligation to correct it at their expense.) Mr. Kirkeide ~ asked if this would be voted on. (Mayor Windschit1 explained that the State law prohibits an election on it; however, the Council does accept petitions and tries to do it as democratically as possible.) Ken Mortenson, 3655 173rd Lane - was against the project. Even at 8 percent interest, payment over 10 years makes lt 2~ times the cost of the original blacktop. (It was noted that the residents do have the ability to prepay at any time.) Mr. Mortenson - stated that those with larger lot frontages will be paying a lot of money tor the roads, which, particularly with the economy, makes it a lot worse for everybody. He felt if the roads are put in, an "expressway" would be created, which they don't want, and will make it worse than it already is. ... Informational Meeting - Street and Drainage in Northwest Area June 19, 1980 - Minutes Page 4 Mr. Kirkeide - again asked about the cost equalization on 180th and how it is assessed. Would 180th Lane be assessed to the three property owners? (Mayor Windschit1 stated that assuming the whole project is done, an assessable front footage is determined for each lot, equalizing each lot to a rectangle, the assessable front footage totaled, then taking the project cost and di~iãing by the amount of assessable front feet to obtain a per-front-foot cost, which would be assessed against each of the lots. They will be paying on an equalized front foot at a cost based on the total project.) Roðer Tóikka. 3804 180th Lane NW - is having the water problem. After the last storm he en ed up with 35 yards of street sand in his yard, and that happens each time it rains. It is getting very expensive to keep pushing it out. He presented the Council with photographs of the problem. He is interested in a cure for his property. Since the neighbors are not having a problem, he stated he would be willing to bear the difference of the equalized front footage versus actual front footage. (Mayor Windschit1 stated if he is wanting to pay for some one else's assessment, that is strictly between himself and his neighbors. The City cannot get involved. The assessment theory is that the street is basically the same usage for everyone, therefore everyone should pay as equally as possible.) Mr. Toikka - wondered if those at the end of 180th facing Aztec are assessed on the short slde. (yes.) He also felt there is a danger on 180th for potential accidents. Last time both 180th and Aztec washed out with a ravine 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep, which he felt could be a very dangereous situation. Mr. Toikka stated that some of the work that has been done there to date has helped somewhat. Hawkins, Anderson from Anoka did all the engineering and p1R~? for his home. There is no problem with water getting into the home. The problem is/~~~ runoff from the streets, but with the sand runoff, which is difficult to remove. (Mayor Windschit1 stated there may still be some questions raised about whether everything was done by his engineering firm.) Mr. Gapp - asked for the cost of class 5 improvement. The class 5 on the corner of Blackfoot and 174th stood up for over two years until it was graded through the last time it was graded and then washed away with the last rain. He felt that class 5 would be less expensive and would help some of the problems. (It was later determined that it would be approximately $10 a front foot for only class 5 improvement.) Pete Kim1inger, 17670 Blackfoot - owns the last lot on Blackfoot before 177th. He asked what would happen 1n the course of the Rum River and Cedar Creek in that area if storm sewer is put in. The power line runs through there now which has made a mess. (Answer was that to put pipe to the river, the DNR would need to give approval.) Mr. Kim1inger - is on a pie-shaped lot. He is presently not in favor of having the road. (His frontage would be decreased based on the theoretical lot size of the area, and he should be able to get an approximate number of assessablee: front feet during the recess.) Mr. Johnson - is it necessary to put class 5 before putting blacktop? (Yes.) He then asked if it would be better to consider putting class 5 throughout and looking at the results before blacktopping. (Mayor Windschit1 explained the danger with doing that is losing the base, as over the years the class 5 just disappears. It could be considered. The difficulty of class 5 roads has been the problem of maintaining it without ·losing the class 5, the dust problem, and that it generally becomes very bumpy after a time. If class 5 is desired, the people should petition for it.) Branier Cvetich, cu1 de sac on 180th - didn't feel he has been given any definite answers so far, so is therefore voting against the project. He asked how many bids the City got for this job. He asked for specific costs for a square foot or a square yard. (Mayor Windschit1 explained the informational, public hearing, and bidding procedure as required by State law which is used for all public improvements, and that bids are not taken at this time. Prices being estimated are based on bids received on other simi1iar projects within the City this year. It was then figured that the estimated cost is $1.20 per square foot of street or $25 per linear foot of road.) Informational Meeting - Street and Drainage in Northwest Area June 19, 1980 - Minutes Page 5 Mr. Hausam - after listening to the discussions, he expressed greater fear that going with normal runoff from the roads would cause a greater problem in his area. He has changed nis mind and is now against the road. (Mr. Winner stated that this is just a preliminary report, and all details on drainage haven't yet been worked out.) Mr. Beck - understood that the people in Oak Grove are not assessed for their class 5 roads, yet we are. He got stuck at the end of his driveway after the grading was done on the end of Aztec, and complained about the work that was done. Also, previously his mail- box has been ripped off by the grader. He felt the current maintenance of the road leaves a lot to be desired. Jim Green, 3953 174th Avenue NW - wondered if the storm sewer costs are included in the $16.75 per front foot cost. (Yes, but it includes grass shoulders and utilizing the existing drainage off the roads to keep the costs down.) Mr. Kirkeide - asked if there has been a calculation on the mean average of return on 1nvestments for this type of assessment to increase property values. Will this increase the property values? (Mayor Windschit1 stated that the City does not do a market valuation study on improvement projects. Discussion noted that it is assumed that the improvement increases property values, and therefore would increase property taxes as well. The $16.75per front foot would be assessed to the property owner, and in addition, generally speaking, they will have a higher tax base for property taxes.) Don Hasbrook, 3925 173rd Lane NW - the section of 173rd Lane between Round Lake Boulevard and Tu11p gets graded about every two weeks, including today. From Tulip to the river, there has been only one grade jOb since the last snow fall. He complained about the ruts in the road, noting it has not been graded since spring. And when it is graded, the lose sand is piled in the middle of the road, making deep ditches on the side, and water then runs down the trench and washes out everyone's property. (It was noted that except for sea1coating, which is very costly, there is very little maintenance on bituminous streets, except for patching. Mr. Winner noted that that area is scheduled for grading tomorrow. One of the things that has to be done is to keep a crown on the middle of the road or the water just covers the entire road. He'll check to be sure the trenches dOn't get (too deep On the side of the road. It was also noted that it is almost impossible to try to maintain the streets without any class 5 as there is nothing there to work with. Also, it has been the City's policy that each improvement area pays for its own improvements in total.) Nancy Strohmayer, 3679 173rd Lane - doesn't want the streets. She also complained that she has called the City relative to ditches in the street and water on her property and didn't receive any response. She felt if the streets were bituminous, it would flood them out, because the sand does take some of the water now. Mr. Davis - stated there is no guarantee once an engineering plan is devised and streets put in that the streets will not flood. He didn't think there was recourse of coming back to them. And he didn't think the plan as proposed is "worth its salt at all". Carol , 180th and Aztec - they're assessed for the entire project, plus pay more for taxes, and asked what they get for it. What does the City pay? What's their return? (Council noted that even though people don't want the improvement, they are complaining about the roads. All the City can do with the roads is the best it can with the equipment and staff available; that bituminous roads are easier to maintain but not necessarily cheaper because repairs and sea1coating are expensive.) Ms. - asked who owns 181st between Oak Grove and Andover and why isn't it included in this proposed improvement. That area was not notified of this meeting. (Discussion noted it could be included; and if it was, it would be done under a joint powers agreement between the two communities.) . - ..- Informational Meeting - Street and Drainage in Northwest Area June 19, 1980 - Minutes Page 6 Mr. Beck - asked why there isn't enough money currently in the budget to maintain the roads properly. (Discussion was the City does the best it can with the staff and equip- ment available, and to do better, the taxes would have to be raised. The bUlK of property taxes go to the County and the school district, and only approximately 8 percent of those taxes come back to the City. At one time, State Aid funds were sought to do 173rd, however, the residents objected to it because of the State requirement on the width of the road, which gets to be a freeway going through a residential district.) Pat Nelson, 17691 Blackfoot - a lot of them have not seen a petition. It was also her opin1on that when the road is graded, the blade of the grader is too high, therefore the bumps and holes are never graded out. She also asked why a study wasn't made on class 5 as an option. (Mr. Winner stated that by eliminating the bituminous surfacing, the cost would be approximately $10 per front foot. Discussion was that in certain areas, it would make no sense not to blacktop the roads; that class 5 would have to be redone about every 5 years, which would then have to be assessed again because class 5 will not hold up; an~ ~~~1 it could not be assessed over a three- to five-year period, which may make that/ gs ment higher than what it would be for blacktop.) Ms. Nelson - moved into the country six years ago to get away from the blacktop jungle and 1S definitely against it. Mr. Davis - asked if it has been projected when that area would get water and sewer. (Mayor W1ndschitl explained that there is no ability to get a sewer line to that area, and explained the MWCC's plan through 2050, and the capacity available to the City. In the event there ever was sewer problems in that area, the City may be forced to construct a localized lagoon system simi1iar to what was done in St. Francis, which is veryex- pensive.) Recess at 9:08; reconvene at 9:37. During the recess many residents signed a paper with the Recording Secretary indicating their vote on the project.) Mayor Windschit1 noted the following letters for the record: Jim and Carol Moeller, 3829 172nd Lane NW, in favor of the project; Judith and Rudell Wicklander, 3903 172nd Avenue NW, in favor of the project; Florence Scwdek, 3614 172nd Lane NW, opposed to the project; and Douglas McKinzie, 3660 173rd Lane, opposed to the project. Councilman Ortte1 noted Mr. Farmes, 179th and Aztec, called him before the meeting expressing opposition to the project. Mr. White - felt it was difficult to make a decision because of the confusion with understanding the assessment policy, and he didn't know exactly what his assessable front footage is. (Councilman Lachinski explained that the City tries not to put too much money in a report for informational meetings. If the project goes any farther, it could be determined for the public hearing the exact assessable footage of each parcel. Because of the severe drainage problems in this area, Councilman Lachinski stated he may be in favor of putting some City funds into the problem areas and would be proposing that to the Council if the project continues further.) Mr. White - stated that last time after several meetings, the figures did become rather reasonable, but by that time everyone was so aggravated and a decision was made upon emotion and not upon fact. He felt they are getting into the same situation tonight. He wouldrather not vote tonight until he could get more accurate figures, but if he had to, he tended to say no. (Mayor Windschitl stated that the Council is just trying to get a feel of who is for or against the project, and the bulk signing the paper were against the project. The Council will be determining which areas, if any, will be brought to a public hearing; and at that time anyone who wants can circulate a petition for or against the project.) Informational Meeting - Street and Drainage in Northwest Area June 19, 1980 - Minutes Page 7 Mr. Beck - what happens if the residents in a certain area are opposed and the majority in another portion are for the project. (Generally speaking, the area in favor would probab1) get the improved streets. It would be questionable whether the other area would based on the problems that the City has and people in favor. It's starting to look like a majority in the northern area are opposed; however, the City will have to look at the drainage problem on 180th Lane. The Council can split areas apart and do parts of them if it logical ties together.) Mr. Beck - thanked the Council for their pateince and appreciated the objectivity shown ton1ght. Council discussion was on what area should be ordered for a feasibility study and a public hearing. On the sheets signed during the recess, there were 26 nO, and 9 of them are north of the crest of the hill on Blackfoot. A vast majority of the properties north of that area are opposed to the project. The possibility of assessing the blacktop streets over 15 years rather than 10 was suggested; and that more engineering information is needed for the drainage problem on 180th Lane cu1 de sac as to what could be done, assuming the northern portion of the area was dropped from the project. Mr. Winner stated that Aztec has been slanted to drain to the east and that the problem now is one of sand washing onto private property. He felt that besides paving, the other solution would be some class 5 to help hold the road, but there should also be a ditch constructed along side the road and get some vegetation to help hold the sand. With class 5, he felt there probably would still be some washouts and some sand washing onto the property, although not as much as now. Tõ- eliminate it completely, it would require paving the street with bituminous birms. Council generally agreed to reduce the project to those unpaved streets south of the crest of the hill on Blackfoot, except for 180th Lane, which will have to be studied. It would be an engineering decision to determine exactly where the bituminous would stop at the crest of the hill on Blackfoot, possibly the lot north of 175th. The feasibility report should also include the assessable frontage for each individual parcel. MOTION by Lachinski, Seconded by Peach, that we order a feasibility report for street and storm sewer improvements On 172nd Avenue NW from Tulip Street NW to Aztec Street NW; 172nd Lane NW from Tulip Street NW to Aztec Street NW; Woodbine Street NW from 172nd Avenue to 172nd Lane; Xenia Street NW from 172nd Lane to the north center line of Cedar Crest Estates; Aztec Street NW from 172nd Avenue to cu1 de sac and 173rd Lane to 174th Avenue; 173rd Lane NW from Tulip Street NW to Aztec Street NW; 174th Avenue NW from Tulip Street NW to Blackfoot Street NW; Blackfoot Street NW from 174th Avenue to the crest of the hill at approximately 176th Avenue; and 180th Lane NW from Aztec Street NW west on the cu1 de sac; and order a public hearing for July 7, 1930, 7:30 p.m., at the Andover City Hall. Motion carried unanimously. Due to the Fourth of July weekend, it was decided to change the date from Monday to Wednesday, July 9, 1980. MOTION by Peach, Seconded by Ortte1, to amend the motion to schedule the meeting for Wednesday, the 9th of July, 7:30 p.m. (See Resolution R79-80) Motion carried unanimously. Councilman Lachinski requested that the additional costs for the problem areas be determined in the event, there is a desire on the part of the City to help with any part of the costs. DOn A1berå' Blackfoot - has his lot for sale, and the crest of the hill on Blackfoot is in the mi dle of his lot. There's very little grade there. He wondered if the road could be regraded to have the blacktop go to 175th. His neighbor to the south wants the improvement. (Mayor Windschit1 stated that it has to be an engineering decision, but they would try to hold it to a lot line.) .... 0·'" Informational Meeting - Street and Drainage in Northwest Area June 19, 1980 - Minutes Page 8 APPROVAL OF CLAIMS MOTION by Peach, Seconded by Jacobson, that Check numbers 3187 through 3243, excluding Check 3192 which has been voided, 3195 which has been voided, 3199 which is being held, 3206 which is being held, and 3235 which should be voted on separately, for a total of $28,927.18. Motion carried unanimously. MOTION by Jacobson, Seconded by Ortte1, that we approve number 3235 in the amount of $61.40. VOTE ON MOTION: YES-Jacobson, Lachinski, Orttel, Windschit1; ABSTAIN-Peach Motion carried. MOTION by Orttel, Seconded by Jacobson, to adjourn. Motion carried unanimously. Meeting adjourned at 10:40 p.m. Respectfully submitted, ~ , -'1\ . ~ \. ..~~~ ,~~ t ~ iCCC/ ~', I...- _\'_ ~"'--^--.;J-.. '_,-_ Marce la A. Peach - Recording Secretary . - ... ....