HomeMy WebLinkAboutSP October 4, 1978
-. .. .
~ 01 ANDOVER
SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING - OCTOBER 4, 1978
MINUTES
A Special Meeting of the Andover City Council was called to order by Mayor Jerry
Windschitl on October 4, 1978, 7:05 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown
Blvd. N.W. for the purpose of discussing the fire which occurred on September 28, 1978.
Councilpersons present: Lachinski, McClure, Orttel, VanderLaan
Councilpersons absent: None
Also present: City Clerk, P. K. Lindquist, Fire Chief Evans, Ass't. Fire
Chief Peach, Andover Firefighters, their wives and other
interested residents
Mayor Windschitl stated the purpose of this Special Meeting was to deal with the issue of
the fire which occurred on September 28, 1978. He explained he didn't know how much the rest
of the Council knew of this. Due to the open meeting law, none of the Council members can
talk to each other on City matters outside of City Hall. Each Councilperson received a
- letter sent by City Staff regarding the fire. Some of the information he has received
is 4th, 5th and 6th hand. He then presented a tape obtained from the Anoka County Comm-
unications Center which dealt with the radio transmissions. This tape was then played
and the transmissions, in part, are _as follows:
CC: Police & Fire.
DH: This is the City of Andover.
CC: Yes.
DH: We have a call that was called in for a grass fire for about l70th & Verdin St. It's
a brush fire near a quonset hut.
CC: l70th & Verdin?
DH: Um-hum. (Yes)
CC: Did they say how large it was?
DH: No, uh-uh. They just said to call the fire department, the City of Andover Fire
Department.
CC: What is the phone there at City Hall?
DH: 755-5100.
CC: And what's your name?
DH: Deloris.
CC: Deloris, what's your last name?
DH: Hanson.
CC: O.K. We'll get on it right away. What do I do? I donor t know how to do it. - grass
fire? - Yes.
AFD: Fire Department.
CC: This is Central Communications and in Andover we have a report of a brush fire on l70th
& Verdin.
AFD: Verdin?
CC: Yes and I'm also notifing them of the fire.
AFD: O.K.
CC: Thank you.
(All alert signal. )
CC: Attention Andover Fire Department. Brush fire on l70th & Verdin. 170 & Verdin, brush
fire - Andover Fire, time of the call 1]:07.
LA: Hello?
CC: l25?
LA: Yes, ma'm.
Special City COunL . Meeti.
October 4, 1978 - Minutes
Page #2
CC: I have a report that your Andover Fire Department has a brush fire at l70th & Verdin.
I also called Anoka Fire.
LA: Why Anoka Fire?
CC: Well, because they have to go on it because Andover Fire is just learning.
LA: Oh. O.K.
CC: We already called them and they are set to go.
LA: I think, based on information, that's supposed to be a test.
CC: Oh.
LA: That's why I'm wondering why Anoka Fire Dept. was called.
CC: It's a test?
LA: Well, it's kind of a screwed up deal, this is through the City Hall. They wanted me to
call it in yesterday so I had Erickson call and tell them that, not to, so I'm sure
that this is it. Let me call City Hall.
CC: Cause I've got Anoka Fire going and I'm not sure they want to go on a test.
LA: Well, that's it, they should have notified....let me call the City Hall and I'll give
you a call back.
CC: O.K.
4S9l: 4891 in service.
CC: 4891 in service, 13:10.
CC: Communications, Shirley.
LA: Yeh, it's me, on that fire, the City says that Anoka City isn't supposed to respond
to grass fires according to their understanding.
CC: According to my understanding, they go on everything until a certain date.
LA: Oh, I didn't...I guess the City's wrong. Vlhatever, they said they wanted Anoka City to
!mow it was a test and for them to cancel. Why don't you tell them they don't have to
go on it.
CC: All right. It is a test then, right?
LA: Well, that's what the City says, they are the ones that are doing it.
CC: All right, bye.
LA: Good bye.
AFD: Fire Department.
CC: This is Central Communications calling back on that grass fire in Andover.
AFD: Yes.
CC: Apparently this is a test. We weren't notified of it before. Your fire department
does not have to respond.
AFD: It's a test?
CC: Yes.
AFD: By who?
CC: The Andover Fire Department. We got it through City Hall. They did not tell us it
was a test.
4891: 4891.
CC: 489l.
4891: Yeh, I don't see a fire, I'm at l7lst & Verdin now, that was l70th & Verdin?
CC: l70th & Verdin.
4891: All right, 10-4, it's on l73rd & Verdin on the east side there.
CC: 4891 - 13:14.
CC: Anyway, it was called in through City Hall as a burning fire and we weren't notified
of it, we checked back with City Hall. The deputy did and they said you can cancel.
AFD: That there is no fire or it is a test.
CC: A test.
AFD: For their department only.
CC: Yes.
AFD: All right.
CC: Thank you.
Special Ci ty C01...._~il Mee.. ..Jg
~~¡~b~5 4, 197$ - Minutes
Mayor Windschitl stated the rest of the tape dealt with a number of units calling
back in when they got to the location of the fire, when some of the other units
arrived at the fire and when the fire was out, etc. It would take another 20 minutes
to play - he wanted to know if there was any desire to play it further. Fireman Bob
Palmer wanted it played further.
4$92: 4892 in service.
CC: 4892 in service - 13:17. 4891 - the correct location is 173rd & Verdin on the east
side.
4885: 4885 in service.
CC: 4885 in service - 13:17.
4891: 4891 to 4892.
4892: 4892.
4891: Yeh, it's just some hay burning inside of a old tin building here, evidently
some kids have been in here playing so....
Mayor Windschitl said he had talked to both the deputy sheriffs involved and the
reference in there about Erickson called City Hall is they were asked the day before
to place the call. Deputy Augustson asked his sergeant what he should do with it and
his sergeant called back to someone at City Hall and told him the Sheriff's Office
didn't want to become involved. He went on to say he has heard some erroneous information
as far as the legal aspects. The City Council has no right of prosecution. If there
would be any type of prosecution, it would relate to the County Attorney, Bob Johnson.
If it is a misdemeanor, the City Attorney would prosecute. An attempt was made to have
the City Attorney here but he had a prior committment. The Council is not qualified to
answer any legal questions. This is all the first hand information Mayor Windschitl had
obtained. He then asked if the Council had any questions.
Councilperson Lachinski had one question of Chief Evans. There seemed to be some
confusion someplace as to whether or not Anoka should respond; either confusion on the
part of City Staff, the deputy or somebody else. With this incident now, is Anoka
confused, are they left wondering what they should do? Chief Evans stated the confusion
is with City Staff.
Glen Rogers made reference to the portion of the tape where Anoka City is to respond
until a certain date. He asked Chief Evans if they have indicated to Anoka that they
are going to cancel out Anoka's contract by a certain date? Chief Evans said no, Anoka
will respond to brush fires until a certain date. Mr. Rogers then asked if this was an
authorized fire and he was told no. He also asked if the fire department has established
a procedure to follow if the Chief was not present at a fire, ie., who was in charge. He
was told the first person there was in charge until such time as a superior arrived. It
would be this person's decision to either call for back up help or cancel another respond-
ing fire department. tœ. Rogers asked if there was any permission from the property owner
to conduct a test or drill on that property, the answer was no. He went on to explain
how dril~are set up in Coon Rapids, part of which is written permission from the property
owner. Chief Evans stated the property owner lives in Ohio. He called Chief Evans about
a year ago and asked if they would consider burning the wooden structure on the property.
Chief Evans looked at it and decided it was not safe enough to get any type of training
out of it. tIT. Rogers then asked if they had any knowledge of the drill. Chief Evans
said no, the first indication they had was when Anoka was cancelled about half way to
the fire. They returned their large tanker and the other truck continued on non-emergency.
Mr. Palmer stated the first indication he had that it was a drill was when Anoka arrived
some six minutes later and said something to the effect that "did you know this was a
drill?" Mr. Rogers then asked if Bob or Ray had any previous fire training. The answer
was no.
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October 4, 1978 - Minutes
Page #4
Mayor Windschit1 then asked the Council if they had any issues to raise. Chief Evans
then stepped to the microphone and stated that a report must be filed with the State
Fire Marshal's Office. This particular fire is being classified arson. In talking to
the gentleman who represents the State Fire Marshal's Office in this area, they are
recommending to us that we take the matter to the County prosecutor. The laws that
were broken by this particular act are MES. 609.565, simple arson, which is a $300.00
fine and 90 days in jail; MES. 609.575 which is negligent fires which is a subcategory
of simple arson and also is a misdemeanor; and MES. 609.686 is a false fire alarm which
is this case also and that also is a misdemeanor. Under the Communications Act, when the
radio was used to transmit the false fire alarm, sending a false signal of distress, from
the fire scene back to City Hall, that is punishable by a $10,000 fine or one year in jail.
If someone had been hurt or killed or had a heart attack during this response, there would
be manslaughter charges leveled at the same time. If it had been a bunch of kids out
there setting fires to see the fire department run, they probably would have had charges
against them and been in jail already. Here we have two responsible adults doing the
same thing. There were also some other laws under the Uniform Fire Code that were broken.
Councilperson Vanderlaan stated there was some conflicting information here. Mayor
Windschitl said only the County Attorney or the City Attorney could prosecute and Chief
Evans is saying the State Fire Marshal's Office. He has not indicated the fire department
has the power to bring charges. Mayor Windschi tl said charges, if any, would either
originate out of the County Attorney's Office if it was a crime above a misdemeanor; the
other possible source of origination for a complaint would be the Sheriff's Office. In
misdemeanors or less, it would be the City Attorney that would be reviewing it and making
prosecutions, if any. Councilperson Vanderlaan stated Chief Evans is saying it is the
fire department who does. Chief Evans stated this is what the State Fire Marshal's Office
has directed. Although he has not talked to the State Fire Marshal, Mayor Windschitl
thought what he was saying was the fire department or someone else could file the complaint.
He doesn't believe the State Fire Marshal's Office gets involved in it themselves. Richard
Lindeen said the State Fire Marshal's Office cannot go out and charge people but they work
through the attorneys and law officials and they can recommend pressing charges. Mayor
Windschitl told Chief Evans he was not qualified to get into legal questions as far as
the laws that were cited. Terry Lindquist asked the Council if this was a serious matter
to them or something they don't feel is worth getting into. !Æayor Windschitl stated each
person could talk for themselves. Personally, he thinks it is a serious matter and doesn't
doubt that the rest of the Council thinks it was a foolish mistake.
Councilperson Lachinski stated he had a motion prepared to take some action this evening.
Councilperson McClure said he thought it was serious, we were lucky nobody was hurt, no
property was damaged or anything. He further stated evidently there is no policy as to
what constitutes legal drills within the City, thus any member of the City could conceiv-
ably, even the Horseman's Council, could call the fire department. This scared him, we
don't have clear policies. He thinks something needs to be done to see that things like
this don't happen again.
Councilperson Orttel also thinks it's serious. What bothered. him, as much as the act
itself, is how it came about. There was some misinformation, somebody thought the new
department was responding by itself. There were at least two memos stating the joint
calls. What happens next time? He assumed the fire department will take the next call
as seriously as this one. But Anoka, if they have an option of where they are going to
send a rig or something, how are they going to take it? As far as policy, he never had
any doubt that drills were entirely up to the Chief.
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October 4, 1978 - Minutes
Page #5
Councilperson Vanderlaan stated the word serious is being used to apply to the matter.
Let's apply it to another word, ramifications. The ramifications of the Council's acts
right now have to be dealt with. The questions that we can ask ourselves in dealing
with what we are going to do is to remind ourselves, we are one City with one objective.
We must ask ourselves whose interests are being served by what we do. Each councilperson
has to seek that in their conscience of why we sit here and why we collect taxes to
support and provide whatever services are available. One person in the audience inter-
rupted and stated it is our tax money paying for the Anoka fire bill. Councilperson
Vanderlaan stated in the memo she received, the City Clerk has volunteered to pay the bill.
The $150.00 is not the question, the Council has to deal with this as intelligent human
beings.
Gary Rushon (sp?) - stated he Just moved into the area and lives around 168th La. N.W.
and Round Lake Blvd. He asked what if these people who owned this property decided to
turn around and sue the City. How much money would be paid out of our tax money?
Councilperson Vanderlaan stated that was one of the ramifications she was going to allude
to. Mr. Rushon further said that if somebody got hurt on this situation, if it had been
his house, and he has a very beautiful home like most people here do, and he found out
it was a game; he will do his best to pay his taxes, and would expect somebody to do
something about it. His house would have been in danger had it been next to this
property.
Councilperson Lachinski stated as far as ramifications go, his opinion would be that
if that individual were to sue the City, or if we get a $150.00 bill from the City of
Anoka, the City of Andover is responsible for the actions of its staff and that at the
same time the City Council would also be responsible for what action should be taken
in this situtation. He thought there should be a thorough investigation before they, the
Council, could know what kind of action to take. Councilperson Vanderlaan asked Mr.
Rushon if he was a member of the fire department. Mr. Rushon replied he Just Joined and
asked Councilperson Vanderlaan if that had anything to do with it. Councilperson Vander-
Laan stated she Just keeping note of who was speaking. A question arose from an unident-
ified person in the audience if the City Council authorized the test. The answer was no,
the Council did not know. This person had not seen the memo mentioned earlier. Mayor
Windschitl stated a copy of this memo was sent to the Sheriff's Office with the following
added comment: "The City Council individually, or in total, had no knowledge of the
drill, nor was any type of consent given by the Council." The open meeting law was
then explained to the audience by Mayor Windschitl.
Terry Lindquist - asked if it had been determined as to who did this. Mayor Windschitl
stated as far as the City Council making the determination, it has not been. He believes
the letter alludes to a comment about it.
Richard Lindeen - asked when the people at City Hall were going to be questioned. Mayor
Windschitl stated he had a proposal as how it should be done.
Winslow Holasek - said the Mayor stated no council member could talk to each other outside
of the council room, they can do so at an open meeting. JÆr. Holasek was advised this was
the first meeting on this subject.
Bill Bush - stated there were two things he thought should be done. The individuals should
be treated the same as anybody else committing a similar act and secondly the City Council
has to deal with them as City employees. Mayor Windschitl said he has talked to the City
Attorney about this, as much as he had on first hand information, and the Sheriff's Office
is also aware of it. What should be done from a City standpoint is the issue we have
to get to tonight.
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October 4, 1978 - Minutes
Page #6
Richard Lindeen - stated this whole thing sound to him like making light of the fire
department. Fire fighting is the most dangerous job in the wold, outside of the police
department, maybe. We are doing this for nothing, we volunteered to go risk our b----
to save people's lives. To show the seriousness of it, they burned a house Monday night
on practice and several men received burns on their faces and hands. They are putting
their lives on the line every time they fight a fire.
Gary Rushon - said he has been here only for a short time, he is from southern California.
He received some training from the Los Angeles Fire Department which is one of the finest
departments in the world - Recording tape turned over. - Councilperson McClure stated
maybe the Council has no idea what it is all about. Councilperson Lachinski said he was
sure the Council recognizes and appreciates the efforts of the fire department. What they
find a little disheartening at this point is possibly some of the members of the City
Staff do not. The Council is going to persue it with a thorough investigation and whatever
comes out of the investigation, the Council will then have something to deal with that
problem.
Mayor Windschitl stated the Council could not deal with the legal issue. He feels the
fact should be determined as best they can and then a recommendation be made to what
v should be done wi th it. Our role as far as running the City, is to determine what, if
any, disciplinary action should be taken - to first determine what facts led up to it,
what precipitated the thing, who was involved in it and whatever background information
or reasoning went into it and then making a recommendation as disposition of the item.
He proposed to form a small committee and give them a deadline to complete the job. Each
council member would submit a name of an individual who has not been associated with
the City for the last two years and then create a committee of five people who would do
all of the investigation·work and write a report as to their recommendation as to what, if
any, disciplinary action should be taken from the City's standpoint.
Councilperson Lachinski stated he thought the County Attorney is very sensitive to the
problems the City Council has in a situation like this. His proposal would be to request
the County Attorney to do a thorough investigation and report back with possible alter-
natives. Mayor Windschitl stated that deals with the legal side of it. Councilperson
Lachinski said he wasn't talking about it from the legal side, they will be doing an
investigation anyway. His proposal is to try and find out all the facts for the Council
so the Council can take some action, if necessary, relative to the actions taken by the
staff. He thinks they would be more qualified to conduct the investigation, if they were
willing to do it. Councilperson MCClure stated he had a couple of comments to make about
the Mayor's proposition. He didn't feel he could come up with a name to suggest tonight.
The question he raises is, is it conceivable that in trying to determine the facts of the
matter for whatever reason, this committee may not have any authority whatsoever to
solicit information. It is conceivable that the staff wouldn't talk to this committee.
Councilperson Orttel felt an individual citizen's committee would not be the answer,
for one reason, not being involved with the City may create some problems. They may
not realize what they are dealing with. They might end up with the same viewpoint as
the person on the Council who appointed him. He feels someone from the County Attorney's
Office staff should investigate it, if it is something they are willing to do. As far as
they making any recommendations, he would rather not see it. This is the Council's job.
If there is something to be done, some corrective measures, if it is a communications
problem, whatever has to be done, it should come from Council as it is our responsibility.
Mayor Windschitl stated his thought was based on the fact the larger cities have civil
service commissions, review committees or appeal boards and Andover does not have such a
thing. His remark "not involved for two years" was to keep it non-political. He felt
the County Attorney's Office would make whatever investigation they think is appropriate
from their standpoint; it may not be appropriate from our standpoint as they get into
rights to privacy laws. If there is an investigation made and no indictment, he doesn't
Special City Co .il Mel -Jg
Octob~r 4, 1978 - Minutes
Page 7
believe anybody can view the files. Councilperson Orttel remarked that was in the case of
a criminal matter, but thought the County Attorney's Office would per sue it as an aid
to the City. As far as interviewing the staff members, they have the same right to
privacy with the County Attorney or with an individual conmrlttee. Councilperson VanderLaan
stated she would like to repeat what Councilperson Lachinski said, "the City is
responsible for its employees". We beam and glow when they do something good, we sit here
and take the credit for it. Now we are getting the heat for something they have done,
li terally . She thinks the Council should involve themselves personally. If there is any
additional information, she thinks the Council should deal with it and should be up front
and open with it. We are dealing with people, staff people, people who serve you, serve
me, serve the rest of the City every day. They goofed. She doesn't believe it was a
wise thing, but to put them into a corner where they will have to be striking out against
a conmrlttee is wrong because they will have to defend themselves. I think they have to
defend themselves to the people who hired them. If the facts are to be exposed, they
have to be deliberate, honest and they have to be concerned as you are people with
feelings, anger about this, emotionally hot right now. They are emotionally hot; they are
afraid of what is going to happen to them. A person in the audience interrupted Council-
person Vanderlaan and stated "they should be afraid, if that was me, I'd be sitting in
jail right now". Councilperson Vanderlaan went on to say we all recognize now it wasn't
the proper-thing to do, but we can all cast stones at those.who have-made mistakes.
Dorene Dillon - stated it may not be proper but if her teenage daughter or son set off a
fire alarm in school, they would be taken to the juvenile authorities and could be held in
jail without their knowledge. Councilperson Vanderlaan tried_to explain that the Council
has no authority to bring charges, but she felt they, as council people, should deal with
this to find"out if there are extenuating facts. She believes the memo received was a
very honest presentation of what happened. If there are additional facts, it should be
the Council who should deal with this. She objects to a conmrlttee.
Bob Dillon - takes a few exceptions to the memo. He would like to see the certain
influential citizens appear. Councilperson Vanderlaan agreed. He wanted to know why
the persons doing the arson were not here representing themselves like the rest of them.
If the Council knew nothing about this, he finds it very difficult, all the influential
people that deal with the Staff, supervise the Staff, in fact, according to the memo, are
not out here taking the heat. Councilperson Vanderlaan stated that is a Public Official's
duty. He again stated in the letter, you have several very influential people who are
down here bugging our Staff. He thinks the Council should do that at open meetings. He
doesn't think it should be done in the lunchroom at City Hall. He further stated there
was a problem here, most of the people by.the time they are out of elementary school
know what happens when you set off a fire alarm. It is not a matter of policy as has
been expressed several times. That has nothing to do with it. He takes exception to
several influential people but he doesn't know who they are. He take further exception
of them evaluating the fire department. If there is to be an evaluation he thinks the
fire department should be involved. He doesn't think the criminal acts as indicated
tonight are a part of that. He hopes they are not in that chaotic a situation. If we
can't control the employees who we pay for directly, he doesn't know how we ever intend
to take care of what is going on in St. Paul or Washington. He feels everybody is beating
around the bush. He would like to see it determined if these people are properly
employable. Unemployment in Minnesota right now is less than 4%, 4% is zero unemployment
so we don't have to feel bad about them looking for a job. The fact that there was a
conspiracy involved in this; this was discussed over a period of days. He personally
talked with two of the individuals involved here who were under the assumption that the
fire vehicles in this City were up for grabs. They were supposed to be pushed out in
the streets and anybody who wanted to take one, they should be able to do that. He
didn't know if that was called to the Council's attention. It might be a matter of
policy but it also is a matter of some rather explicit state law. Being fire chief is
Special City Co .il Met .lg
October 4, 1978 - Minutes
Page #8
not something dreamed up, that's been developed over quite a long time and it carries
a h------- lot of responsibility. He further stated it is sUbstantially much more a
responsibili ty than displayed by some of our other City employees. They mentioned
experience here. He is sure it is a concern. He has had substantial experience with
a fire department. It has changed some since he left eight years ago, much more fast
and sophisticated. If we saw the same stuff he started out with 25 years ago, we
would laugh. It was funny. But what we are doing right now is funny. The groundwork
is laid and by a year from not, it won't be funny anymore. You can get all the jokers
(City Staff) out of the way in the meantime and he means jokers (City Staff). (Applause
from audience. ) He finds it difficult to believe that there is 8l1Y question about what
has to happen. It is not a matter of policy, you just don't toy with this thing. After
you get an operation here and you have a false alarm, suppose it is your house is the one
~hat's burning while they are out tending a false alarm. If you see a car go through a
stop sign, you don't cormnandeer a cop's car and go chase him, do you? It's unheard of.
Why all of a sudden in the fire department is there an issue? There is no issue at all.
In conclusion, Mr. Dillon stated he doesn't care to have his taxes raised to give these
people a raise next: year. (Applause from audience. )
Barb Evans - stated she was the wife of the fire chief. She believes the memo questions
the integrity of the fire department. She is questioning the integrity of the people
that would set something like this up. They have a legitimate question to wonder what
the response time would be, but where did they get the authority to do such a thing.
Maybe it is a minor thing to some of you but it is our husband's lives that are really
being given at this point. She guesses that sounds trite because it was just a little
fire drill. So much could have happened and didn't. She doesn't care if they ever
prosecute, that isn't the issue. The issue is what authority does the Staff have to
do this. For what purpose and why was this done? She heard the word animosity last
night and wants to know why there is animosity. Vfuat has caused that? Maybe she is
subjective or prejudice at this point but would like this question answered. (Applause
from audience.)
Councilperson Orttel stated the record of the Council as far as support of the fire
department is public record. One thing we can feel proud of now is the number of people
that came tonight and he thinks that says something for the department.
Jeannine Pyron - came to the microphone and stated she just learned of this meeting a
little over an hour ago. She didn't think a citizen's committee could properly take care
of it, there should be a professional investigation. They (Council) can't make a
decision on what to do with the Staff until the final facts are known.
Councilperson Orttel stated he is upset by this and is biased and personally does not
want to sit on the committee. He would like to see an independent committee, organization
or individual do it.
Richard Lindeen - believes the County Attorney's Office should be involved in the
investigation to find out the facts and the reasoning because if in the findings there
are actual criminal charges that could be brought against these people, they know how
to ask the right questions. He doesn't think a private individual is qualified.
John Ward - stated he would like to make a few comments. He knows some people present
tonight are angry and he admires their restraint. One thing that worries him is that
he is afraid of a witch hunt being started at the City level. Unfortunately stupidity
is not against the law. He asked if anybody here has done nothing in their lives that
was stupid, pLease hold their hands up. One lady in the audience raised her hand and
said "here". Laughter ensued. Mr. Ward feels the issue is serious but doesn't think
there was any malicious intent on the part of those involved. We are dealing with ifs,
Special City Co ,il Met ¡g
Octob~r 4, 1978 - !Æinutes
Page 9
"If the dog had not stopped to scratch his fanny, he might have caught the rabbit."
Thank God nothing did happen, is it necessary to have a sacrificial goat? Members of
the audience said yes. Several people started talking at once to ~~. Ward.
Darlene Stone - took exception to Mr. Ward's remarks regarding no malicious intent and
sacrificial goat. They have been firemen for how long? If they can't have their City
and Council backing them, what the h--- are they out there for? At this point Mayor
Windschitl asked that only one person talk at a time.
Darlene Stone - It was an act aforethought, it was a planned action, they knew the
legalities involved and I do not think they are stupid people, I know very few stupid
people in this world.
John Ward - stated he knows nothing of the legal aspect of it, but he can see alot
of people losing jobs over something stupid. Mayor Windschitl then asked again to
please have one person talk at a time.
Bruce Lindberg - advised he has been with the Minneapolis Police Dept. for 28 years and
is at present a Deputy Chief. He explained the proper procedure to file a criminal
complaint. If the investigation is not handled properly, anything Staff said could not
be used in court.
Tom May - stated if he turned in a false alarm at the company he works for, he would get
15 minutes to clear out his desk. (Applause from audience. )
Douglas Stockamp - recommends that a complaint be filed. (Applause from audience.)
Mayor Windschitl advised Mr. Lindberg the Sheriff's Office knew about this ahead of time
and they know more facts about this than we (Council) do.
Bob Palmer - feels a complaint should be issued as the deputy did tell them they didn't
want to get involved in it and at that time they felt there was something wrong with it.
Bob Dillon - commented three months from now this will be funny, now it isn't. The fact
tha t there has been ongoing animosity between the departments of the Ci ty . It was not a
stupid act, it was a series of stupid acts. The fact that the fire trucks are supposed
to be made available to anybody. They don't know how a fire department operates.
Chief Evans - stated the memo is full of contradictions. The influential citizens
are concerned, one reason listed was the department's lack of experience - the end of
the letter alludes that they are so serious about this, they want to go out and
privately contract with the City of Anoka Fire Department. Every man on the fire
department with the exception of one or two have had over 200 hours of training. In the
final. paragraph the City is indicating what we should do is to answer the concern of
these concerned citizens about the experience of the fire department. Instead of sending
trained men, what we'll do is send untrained men to the fires. We'll give the keys to
the fire hall to everyone here and that way when there is a fire, the untrained men can
go and that should then answer these concerned citizens. The inconsistency is that we
have no experience but yet we want to take two of the City Staff and send them to fires.
They have no communications training, no legal training as far as running the vehicles
under emergency conditions, no training on the vehicles themselves, (Recording tape
turned over) and no fire fighting training. That sounds good to him. Reading on it
implies that some of the things we did were illegal or incorrect. The response map
that was turned in by the fire protection committee did not indicate times from homes to
the fire hall. That was clearly indicated in the report. They are indicating here that
we didn't tell them everything. It is clearly indicated those times did not include
times from the houses to the fire hall. The driving distance were legal speeds obeying
Special City Cc ,il Met -Jg
October 4, 1979 - Minutes
Page #10
all traffic laws. Some of the time is being made up by the fact you are running at
emergency response. The fire that Dave and Ray put out in the building, the statement
that no one at City Hall had been given information that the Andover Fire Department
would respond, or how to contact them. The Chief was not home. This was before we
announced we were starting any type of fire fighting. He was not going to send anybody
out there until they are ready to go. It implies we were bad guys again, we weren't
home. It further states Anoka City charges $150.00 minimum so they put the fire out on
their own time. We are doing everything on our own time. The City Staff apparently
spent two days in planning and executing this little charade in order to call men out
who were donating their time, men who were asleep and men working 12 and 15 hours a day,
and then they place City vehicles along the roadway in order to time us. The following
day he was asked that a key for the quonset hut be made available to them. They were
informed that if they became volunteers and were trained, this would be made available
to them and this is what he, Chief Evans, encouraged. This same issue is still before
the Council after about 8 months, 6 months in the Personnel Committee and has been on
three agendas for City Council. He assumes they haven't had time to get to it. This is
a serious situation, trying to staff up the day time fire to compliment the evening fire
to make it as strong as evening response. Understandably both men took offense to this
and he apologized. He would rather see that happen than them getting hurt or a fire
getting away from them and someone lose their home or lives possibly. The City is putting
themselves in a legal situation where the City, co~lectively has decided that untrained
men could go fight fires. He didn't know if that would constitute a law suit or not. If
they were fighting fires and they got hurt, who would cover them? The workman's comp
as City Staff isn't going to cover them and certainly the Fire Department's workman's comp
wouldn't cover them. They are not insured any time they are fighting fires. Chief Evans
then read the last sentence of the memo. "When there is a fire emergency in our community,
that is the most important thing going on." He stated he has used these same words to
the Personnel Committee and to the Council and now this is being used against them.
Why do you (Council) start letting those guys start putting out fires. He just wanted to
point out the inconsistencies and accusations that have been made against them which to
him, do not hold merit.
Councilperson Orttel commented the response time for the first call was excellent. (Applauæ
from the audience. )
With reference to who is going to initiate an investigation, Councilperson McClure feels
the Council should do it. (Applause from the audience.)
Chief Evans asked if the Council are sworn to uphold the laws of the State. Mayor
Windschitl said yes. Chief Evans then stated he keeps getting indications that they
(Council) want to back away from this. 1Byor Windschitl stated no one has said that.
Chief Evans said they keep shying away from the words that laws have been broken. !I,ayor
Windschitl thought the Council was being very careful with the legal aspect of it.
Councilperson Vanderlaan recalled another time when a staff person had a supplementary
job. There was a problem with that being brought to the Council. He answered questions
for us. We established policy after the fact. What came out of it was that the person's
reputation had been injured. We can all sit here and make judgments. Unless the Council
proceeds properly in any kind of investigation, we, as agents of the City, put the City
on the line again. People are making statements here. ~~at about the other side of the
issue, obviously the defense of the issue is whatever was the reason for all of this.
Various members of the audience asked why weren't they (Staff) here. Councilperson
Vanderlaan stated they were told they were not required or asked to be here. What
we are dealing with now are the rights of the Staff. There have been statements about
raises, responsibilities and positions. If our Staff had printed documents saying they
have a right to a public hearing if there is an incrimination against them - - they can
look at this from the standpoint that their civil rights are being violated and in her
U!Jt::'-'.LCL.J.. \.I..LlJ,J \.IV :.J..l. lVU::::t..· '.'ð
October 4, 197ó Minutl
Page #11
opinion that is the situation the Council has to be careful of. The Council has to be
as fair as possible in this situation. The Council also has to deal with this as
discreetly and yet as honestly and openly as possible.
Gary Rushon - recommended a complaint be filed with the Sheriff's Office.
Mayor Windschitl asked Mr. Lindberg the following question: \~en the Sheriff's Office
already has the matter under investigation, if a City asked them to do something more to
it, would that make any difference more or less in their investigation? Mr. Lindberg
replied no, it wouldn't make any difference in their investigation, it might put a little
emphasis on it. It's like any other group, the more pressure they get, the harder they
will work on it. He wanted to caution the Council about one thing. Once a criminal
procedure gets going, it is hard to recall. The Council might want to take it by just a
fact finding situation first. You can start criminal proceedings at any time.
Bob Palmer - stated he thought the complaint should come from the Mayor, himself, the
head man of the City.
Councilperson McClure directed the following question to Mr. Lindberg: If the Council,
as a group, wanted to go into a fact finding session and not go to the people involved,
isn't this just hearsay? How do you find the truth if you don't ask the people involved?
lœ. Lindberg stated most of it is hearsay, circumstantial evidence. Very few cases are
handled on concrete or real evidence. When you find what you feel are the facts, then
you make your decision. Is it strong enough that you want a criminal complaint issued on
it. If you do, then you go to the authorities and they in turn will question the people
involved. Before they do it, since they are actaully going to someone who is actually in
the accusatory stage, they will give the Miranda warning. Then anything they say can be
used in court. If you question them and they make admissions to you, can't use it in
court because it has been done in the accusatory stage and not giving them the warning.
Councilperson McClure stàted that was his problem, if he doesn't ask anybody questions,
everything is hearsay 2, 3, 4 times removed.
Councilperson Vanderlaan stated, in other words, those same questions can be asked in that
different atmosphere, the motivation is different. It is not to press charges, it is to
examine the facts to see if a decision is necessary to press charges. JAr. Lindberg stated
the Council could ask all the questions they want, but they would have to give the Miranda
warning.
Councilperson Orttel said it was his thinking that, were we to do that, the whole thing
would end there. He believes it is more of an organizational problem that goes alot
deeper than that, such as the influential citizens who want to start a petition. What
concerns him is that a half million dollar investment could have been jeopardized and he
would hate to see somebody found guilty of a misdemeanor charge and then just put it on
a shelf and say we took care of that. He thinks it is something that has to be straight~
ened out once and for all now before it snowballs with the department itself.
Steve Simonds - thought the Council had a very simple decision to make. 1. You let the
Sheriff's Office investigate any criminal ramification of this act. 2. The City Council,
the employer of these people, should look at the disciplinary actions that are necessary
for these irresponsible individuals, whether you want them to continue to work on as City
Staff after showing this irresponsibility. To him, it is cut and dried. You don't do any
legal and the Sheriff's Office doesn't do the hiring or firing.
Bruce Lindberg - strongly urged, if the Council makes the decision to go criminal, do not
investigate it by Council. You will jeopardize the case. If you want to take the
disciplinary action, that's fine.
Special City Cc. ,il Mel .1g
October 4, 1978 - Minutes
Page #12
Councilperson Vanderlaan stated then it is a preconceived sitatuion. If the Council
says do not investigate, then it must be by a criminal situation. We then don't know
other than the meeting and our memo those things on which we base our decision so it
is a "Catch-22". Mr. Lindberg said it is an either/or situation.
MOTION by Lachinski, seconded by McClure, Whereas the City Council of the City of Andover
recognizes the seriousness of the actions taken by City Staff members on September 28,
1978, the City Council requests the County Attorney to perform a thorough investigation
into the evenwwhich occurred up to and including the fire which occurred on Thursday,
September 28, 1978 to provide the City Council with all background information and facts
centering this incident and to provide suggested alternatives which the Council may Rve
for resolution of this matter.
Discussion: Mayor Windschitl asked Mr. Lindberg if he thought there was anything wrong
wi th themotion. Mr. Lindberg stated he could see nothing wrong with it, the County
Attorney will refer it back to the Sheriff's Office for investigation and then they can
get the facts on it. Councilperson Orttel said we are not asking them to necessarily
investigate it as a criminal matter, but just to give us background as to what did happen.
Councilperson Lachinski thinks this is a good route to go because you have the option of
prosecution. You can back out of the prosecution once you get the facts on it. He further
stated the Council will get a good report out of the County Attorney's Office. They will
give you the ifs, the whys and so forths and options on it that you are asking for.
After a question by Mayor Windschi tl as to the meaning of "hard to recall", Mr. Lindberg
explained that what the Council is doing now is asking that the fact! be brought out. No
complaint is signed until it is determined whether or not the facts are there for the
complaint to be based on. On a misdemeanor, you have to prove the fire call was sent in,
that it was malicious and so forth, whatever the facts are governing a false alarm. Once
that determination is made and all of those facts are there, then a complaint can be
signed. An investigation has to be made to determine if those facts are there first.
Councilperson Vanderlaan asked if she could liken it to one situation during the last
election. There were two persons involved in some alleged violation of the campaign
practices act. Both parties requested the attorney to get involved in this. Is this what
Councilperson Lachinski is suggesting in his motion; that it simply be that, which
obviously will involve Council and probably alot of the Fire Department will be quizzed
informally by the County Attorney, is this what he is authorizing? Without legal counsel
we have to be sure we know what we are doing. Mr. Lindberg stated once you go to the
County Attorney, he will give you the legal advise you need. Once the facts are deter-
mined as to what really happened, the County Attorney will say you have grounds for
this charge or ground for that charge. At that time he will issue a complaint. If it is
found that it is a misdemeanor, which it probably is, it will be referred to the City
Attorney and he will issue the complaint. Since the Sheriff's Office has already
started investigating the incident, Mr. Lindberg suggested the Mayor contact the Sheriff's
Office and make it known he is interested in following up on the case and he wants to
be kept abreast on how the investigation is progressing and they will keep him appraised
of the situation. Then when they reach a point in the investigation, they will give the
Mayor his facts and then he can determine what he wants to do on it.
Councilperson Orttel stated it still comes back to the City for disposition then. Mr.
Lindberg said yes, it will come back to the City as to whether or not a complaint should
be signed.
Vote on Motion: Yes - Lachinski, Orttel, McClure, Windschitl; No - Vanderlaan
Motion carried on a 4-1 vote.
Special City Co, .11 Mel .Jg
October 4, 1978 - Minutes
Page #13
For the record, Councilperson Vanderlaan stated as the Sheriff's Office is already
investigating the matter, the suggested procedure by Councilperson Lachinski that
the lmyor request to keep informed'of the matter and also the Council to discuss
the matter furthe~ she thinks is the wisest choice in this situation because the
Council needs to be thoroughly informed from all aspects of the situation for determining
the legal disposition of the matter or involving themselves in the legal disposition of
the matter.
Gary Rushon - stated he thought that most of the Council is taking the right stand on
this issue and he praises them for it.
~Æayor Windschitl then stated that with the dedication and effort of the Fire Department,
he hoped and prayed that the people on the department do not become totally discouraged
wi th this thing and are willing to carry forward with it because he thinks they have a
Council that is for the most part on most issues has stood with you (fire department)
on it. You have got the program really underway and he wanted to thank the fire department
and their wives for putting up with all the time that you have put into this and hopes
they will continue with it. (Applause from the audience.)
MOTION by McClure, seconded by Vanderlaan to adjourn. Meeting adjourned 9:00 p.m.
Respectfully submitted:
,_')'~éæ/A¿f:l£-/ ,,,,,/.,/1
Rae Ellen Bakke- .
Recording Secretary .
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M E M 0 RAN 0 U M
TO: MA YOR AND COUNCIL
COPIES TO: FIRE CHIEF. ANDOVER DEPUTY SHERIFF
FROM: r:T'T'V "T.FoRK! A ADM
DATE: SEPTEMBER 29. 1978
REFERENCE: FIRE CALL/SEPTEMBER 28. 1978
As no doubt, most of you are aware, the Andover Fire Department responded to
a fire call at 1:07 P.M. on Thursday, September 28, 1978. The origin and cause
of the fire has been questioned. Briefly, following is the background on this fire,
for which, although I did not participate, I will aSSUITIe full responsibility for the
entire affair because I was aware of the events leading up to the fire and did not
give an order to abandon such a plan.
The City Hall has received from several citizens, some of which are very influential
in Our City, calls and contacts relative to their tremendous concern and fear for the
reliability of the Andover Fire Department. This concern was shared by every City
Staff member. The reason for such concern has been 1) the fire chief has not served
in the capacity of a firefighter prior to his assuming responsibility as fire chief.
2) the fire chief and the majority of the volunteers have had little or no experience
in fighting fires without the assistance of experienced fire people, 3) the minimum
size of the day crew. and 4) the presentation of information by the Committee/
Department which did not contain all the facts, i.e., the "response" map presented
to the City does not reflect the time it takes for the crew to arrive at the fire barn
following receipt of the alarm. This coupled with the added concern of the staff
persons being requested to join the department of their being the only Ones responding
to day fires, prompted action.
Approximately three weeks ago a fire was spotted by Dave Almgren in an abandoned
barn on 175th and Verdin Street. He contacted the City Hall at 4:25 P. M., requesting
that we alert the Andover Fire Department and ask for help. No-one at City Hall had
been given information that the Andover Fire Department would respond or how to
contact them (the :fire Chief was not home). Knowing that the City of Ano~ charges
us a minimum $150.00 for a call, the Senior Public Works Person filled water tanks.
took the City extinguishers and went out to assist Dave in putting out the fire. I
might add that the fire was put out by Dave and Ray, and on their own time. The
following day Mr. Evans was asked for the key for the quonset building, so if this
happened again, they would have access to shovels, water and a truck. They were
informed that if they became volunteers and were trained, this would be available
to them. Understandably both men took offense to this, simply because putting out
a fire should be the primary concern in an emergency and not titles and positions.
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Following this incident, along with the resident ca11s of concern, mention was made
( aving a dri11 to check out the Department's response, and], ::>þefully ease the
fears of so many people. More talk ensued and on Thursday, September 28, 1978,
Ray set two bales of bay afire at the same location of the previous fire, notified
the office and a call was made to the Andover Fire Department. The response
time was checked, and I am very happy and vepy very relieved to report the
following:
One fireman responded at the fire barn at 1:08:40' and left the barn at 1:09. .
He arrived at the scene of the fire at 1:13. Three additional firemen
reported at the barn with the next 2 -3 minutes and two additionà vehicles
ar rived at the fire at I: 19.
Unfortunately, the City of Anoka also responded to the call, which will result
ina$150.00 charge. More important, they arrived at the fire almost six (6)
minutes after our Department. As I stated earlier in this memo, I did not
participate in any of the drill actions. however, I was aware of it, and will
therefore, pay the $150.00 when the bill arrives.
I would also like to say that although the fire was of minor consequense, the
Andover Fire Department 1) did respond in excellent time, 2) conducted themselves
as professionals in light of the fact that they had no idea on the size and extent
of ·\-¡e fire, 3) responded faster than the City of Anoka, and 4) responded with
el .gh vehicles and men to handle any type of fire thay could occur in our City.
The above should certainly prove to the concerned citizens, that they can forget
their fears and definitely should not circulate a petition requesting authorization
to contact the City of Anoka for their individual protection.
Although what was done by the City Staff was perhaps wrong, the end result
gave us the information needed to talk to our citizens with personal first-hand
knowledge on the excellent response time of our Department.
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Patiicia K. Lindquist
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P.S. The City Council, individually or.in total, had nO knowledge of the drill, nor
'" was any type of consent given by the Council.
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October 6, 1978
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I Ms. Patricia K. Lindquist, Clerk
T City of Andover
1685 Crosstown Blvd.
Anoka, Minnesota 55303
y Dear Pat:
of I understand that you were given the text of a preliminary
draft of our monthly fire activity report, regarding the
A September 28, 1978 fire in Andover, over the phone by my Secretary.
I have reviewed that draft with the Fire Chief and in the final
or typed draft ~e have deleted the reference to the Andover Fire
N Chief and Mayor possibly considering charges regarding the fire.
This was done as it was second hand information. The Mayor did
0 not talk to our Fire Department. We do not know if the information
is accurate, and it adds nothing to the report.
,
., Please feel free to call or write if you have any questions.
A V ~ '"Æ51~
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Jerry Dulgar
I JD/ek City Manager
CCI Mayor Jerry Windschitl
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55303 II
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MEMORANDUM
TO: MA YOR AND COUNCIL
COPIES TO: STAFF. FIRE DEPARTMENT
FROM: CITY CLERK
DATE: NOVEMBER 22, 1978
REFERENCE: INVESTIGATION/REPORT (FIRE DRILL)
I have just completed reading the memo from the Anoka County Attorney
and the report from the County Investigator, Jerry Dhennin. Several
references in both articles indicate knowledge by the Mayor of the
fire drill action by the Staff.
Approximately two weeks prior to the actual drill (when the matter was
first brought to my attention), I did call Jerry and asked him what his
feelings would be on such an action. He - stated that a drill would be a
very good idea and confirmed that he too, had received comments of
concern from citizens; HOWEVER, he went on to say that he did not
(or could not approve) because there could be some liability involved
if the Council were to give consent to this. He also stated something to
the effect that "with Central Communications and our Deputy" response
time s could be verified when an actual fire did occur. With that the
conversation ended. I did advise the staff of Jerry's comments and
also talked to Deputy Augustson about keeping track of the A. V. F. D.
response when there was a fire call. ff I remember correctly, the
whole matter just dropped after that. The above is based on memory,
therefore, it is not verbatim, but the whole conversation did leave me
with the impression that Jerry was not in favor of a "Staff conducted
Fire Drill ".
The Staff responses to the Investigator's inquiry, were, for the most part,
I believe to be as the respondent recalled-there were some statements made,
that to the best of my recollection, did not truthfully express the facts or
the respondent's feelings, however, that is only my opinion.
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Patricia K. Lindquist - Clerk
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ANOKA COUNTY ATTORNEY
ROBERT W. JOHNSON
Court Ilouse - Anoka, Minnesota 55303 612-421-4760
November 8, 1978
Mr. William Hawkins
Attorney at Law
117 Northtown Drive
Blaine, Minnesota 55434
Dear Bill:
Pursuant to the request of the Andover City Council this
office has investigated the circumstances surrounding the
fire call of September 28th. I am enclosing the product
of that investigation, consisting of a number of investi-
gation reports, which summarize conversations between
individuals having knowledge of the incident and our
investigator, Jerry Dhennin.
In order to assist you in your review of this matter I
submit the following report as a summary and analysis of
the facts.
The reports provide a clear picture of how the event occurred.
While there is no evidence as to who first came up with the
concept of a test, with the exception of Bob Muscovitz, the
entire city staff was present during discussions of a test
of the fire department's preparedness. This concern culmi-
nated in the idea to set fire to hay bales and moniter the
response of the Andover Fire Department.
On the day of the test the two hay bales secured for the test
were placed in a structure at 174th and County Road 59. The
structure, a metal quansot hut, had been prepared to minimize
the damage of the fire spreading. In addition, the partici-
pants were under the impression that the owner had iven the
city permission to burn the structure. The part' ipants
thus believed no real damage could result fro he test.
The hay was ignited and a call was made to the base station
at the City Hall. After a second call from the burn site,
Central Communications was notified of the fire. Upon
learning that the Anoka Fire Department was responding to
the call an attempt was made to cancel their participation.
Affirmative Action / Equal Opportunity Employer
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Letter
William Hawkins
Page Two
It was not until then that Central Communications was
informed the fire was a test procedure.
It is apparent that the city staff believed they were
engaged in a legitimate test. The wide involvement of the
staff, communication with sheriff's deputies and candor in
discussing the matter with our investigator speak against
any knowing performance of an illegal act.
The extent of involvement by all individuals having knowledge
of this matter was as follows:
l. Ray Sowada
a. Secured the hay
b. Prepared the burn site
c. Set the fire
d. Called in the fire report to the base station.
2. Dave Almgren
a. Monitered the arrival of the fire department.
3. Rae Ellen Bakke
a. Supplied matches to ignite the hay.
4. Deloris Hanson
a. Received call from Sowada and made the call to
Central Communications to report the fire.
5. Janett Eveland
a. Supplied the hay for the test.
6. Pat Lundquist
a. No active involvement other than knowledge.
7. Deputy Auguston
a. no active involvement other than knowledge.
Bakke, Sowada and Almgren tried to obtain
active involvement and one of them informed
the deputy that the mayor had knowledge of
the test. The deputy declined involvement.
Letter
William Hawkins
Page Three
Bob Muscovitz was not brought into the test either actively
or passively for the staff believed he would inform the
fire department personnel that the planned event was a test.
I have reviewed the criminal statutes to determine whether
the acts of people involved violated any criminal law. My
review has lead me to the conclusion that no criminal law
has been violated. The only two statutes which appear to
have any application are M.S. 609.565, simple arson, and
609.686, false fire alarms. Arson requires destruction by
fire of the property of another without consent. Clearly
such was not the case in this event. False fire alarm, while
not well defined in the statute, requires at a minimum that
the report of a fire have no basis in fact. In this event
there was in fact, a fire. The report, therefore, not being
entirely false, is not a false fire report.
I anticipate you will be bringing this matter to the attention
of the City Council. Please call me if you have any questions
or cOl1UTIents.
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Robert M. A. Johnson
Assistant County Attorney
RMAJ:lva
Enclosure
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COUNTY ATTOHNEY'S OFFICE
COURT HOUSE ANOKA., MINN. 55301
Dau:October 19, 1978
To: Robert M A Johnson
From:Jerry Dhennin
SubJeel: Update on Currer: t Matters
Regarding ~he Andover matter I have talked with Pat Lindquist,
Rae Ellen Bakke, Dave Almgren, Raymond Sowada, all of the Andover
city staff, and Deputy Len Augustson. I have yet to talk with
Janett Eveland, Dolores Hanson, and Bob Muscovitz. I also obtained
a copy of a memorandum to the Mayor and Council of Andover from
Rae Ellen Bakke dated October 17 which includes a transcript of
the radio communications regarding the report of the fire on Septem-
ber 28 as well as minutes of the special meeting on October 4
regarding that fire call.
It appears at this point that most if not all of the city
staff were involved in discussions if not actual planning of the
fire call, with the exception of Bob Muscoyitz and Pat Lindquist.
It appears that Muscovitz might not even have been aware of it until
shortly before the fire was started. He was with Ray Sowada however
at the time Ray set the fire and notified the Andover city office
by CB radio that the fire had been set. Dolores Hanson was the
person who relayed the information by telephone to Central Commun-
ications. Dave Almgren, the building inspector, was positioned by
the Andover Fire Barn to monitor and report to the City Hall by
CB radio the arrival of the volunteer firemen. I understand
Janett Eveland provided the hay bales and Rae Ellen Bakke provided
the matches.
I'll be out of town Thursday and Friday this week but I should
be back Saturday and Sunday if something needs doing over the
weekend. I'll leave what there is of the Andover file on your
desk.
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. COUNTY ATTOR1Œl"S OFFICE
.
counr UoUSE AN'OKA.. MINN. ~53D)
Dale: 10/26/78
.
To: Robert M. A. Johnson
From: Jerry Dhennin
Subject: Andover Fire Call
October 13, 1978, you directed me to gather information as to .
who was involved, both passively and actively, regarding the
setting of a fire and a subsequent call for the Andover Fire
Department by the staff of the City of Andover. You also asked
that I obtain a copy of the tape on which the communications
were recorded regarding this call, and a transcription of that
tape.. On the same day, I spoke with Cecil Van Dusen of Central
Communications who informed me he had already made a copy of that
tape for the Andover Fire Chief and wished to make a copy of that
copy as there was a great deal of time involved in making copies
from the original tape. He said he would contact the Fire Chief
and obtain his copy of the tape for that purpose. Several days
later, he had not been able to obtain this tape, however I have
a transcription of the tape which was provided as part of the
minutes of a Special Andover City Council Mee~ing held on
October 4, and have not renewed efforts to obtain a copy of the
tape itself.
2:00 P.M., October 18, 1978, I arrived at the Andover City Hall
and began interviewing the city staff.
I first spoke with Patricia Lindquist, who is City Clerk and
Acting Administrator (Acting Administrator as of January, 1978).
She told me that on 9/15/78 she began hearing talk by some of the
city staff to test the fire department's response time and the
number of firemen which would show up. This was in response to
calls from numerous citizens expressing concern over the abilities
of the fire department, and concern over these abilities by the
staff as well. The talk had been of setting fire to some hay in
an old metal quonset hut, to take both water and a fire extinguisher
along as a safeguard, and to clean the area around the hay so that
the fire could not spread. The fire department would then be
called to determine its response. She gave the opinion that all
the staff seemed to be both aware and in favor of it with the
exception of Maintenance !!an Bob Muscovitz. (Apparently Huscovitz
was being excluded from the talk as he was a volunteer fireman for !
the city.) She told me that sometime prior to September 28, there
had been a fire inside this quonset hut which was put out by staff i
members Dave Almgren and Ray Sowada, who are building official and I
senior public works man respectively. She said the talk was to do
this on the Monday following, however, that day it was thought to
be too windy. She said the staff also intending to monitor the
arrivals of the volunteers and make note of the times and the I
numbers. She said she believed no one, including herself, thought
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. páge Two.
it was possibly illegal, or that it could pose possible liability
problems. She said although she was aware of the talk and of the
planning, she neither participated in it nor opposed it.
11s. Lindquist told me she was out of the building between 10 A.M.
and 1 P.M. on Septe~ber 28th, and that shortly after she arrived
back at the building she heard a radio call from Ray Sowada to the
City Hall being answered by Delores Hanson. She said the call was
to the effect the fire had been started and the call should be made
for the Andover Fire Department. She said she also learned that .
Dave Almgren was at or near the firebarn located at the intersection
of Nightingale and County Road IB, to monitor the arrival of the
volunteers there. She said apparently Almgren also had a radio
equipped vehicle as he was radioing in the times of the volunteers
arrivals at the firebarn. She said as both Ray Sowada and Dave
Almgren called in, Delores Hanson wrote down the times. She said
Delores has asked her, at the initial call from Sowada, if she
wanted to call Central Communications with the information and had
told Delores no. She said Delores Hanson then telephoned Central
Communications with the fire call.
I asked Ms. Lindquist who seemed to be doing. the actual planning
and she said all the staff talked about it. . I asked her who the
owner was of the property on which the quonset hut was located and
she told me a John T. Russell who resides in Canton, Ohio.
3:05 P.H., 10/18/78, I met with Deputy Sheriff Len Augustson at the
Andover City Hall. He told me that the day before the fire call in
question he had made a routine stop at the City Hall. (He is
assigned the Andover area.) He said it was about 2:00 or 3:00 in
the afternoon and that he was talking with both Ray Sowada and
Rae· Ellen Bakke and they had asked him if he would radio in the
fire call for them as they were going to test the fire department's
response. He"said Ray Sowada did most of the talking, that Sowada
also told him they had the Mayor's okay to do this. Deputy Augustson
said he suggested they do it themselves. He said he then checked
with Sheriff's Patrol Sergeant Erickson who advised him he would
look into it and who later contacted Deputy Augustson and told him
the Sheriff's Office would not get involved. Deputy Augustson said
he did make a report on this incident. He said he also talked with
Mayor Windschitl by telephone from his home and was told by the Hayor
he was not aware of the test. Deputy Augustson told me he had been in
the Sheriff's Office squad room when he heard the fire call come in
and had telephoned the Andover City Hall where he talked with Rae
Ellen Bakke who told him it was a test for their fire department
and that they did not want the Anoka Fire Department responding.
The deputy told me he then informed Central Communications that the
call for the. Andover Fire Department was a test and they could cancel
the Anoka City Fire rigs. Deputy Augustson said the whole thing
seemed legitimate to him although he would have tried to talk them
out of it had the Mayor not okayed it. I
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. , Pagp. Three.
3:30 P.M., 10/18/78, I interviewed Raymond Sowada. I learned
that he has been employed by the City of Andover since 8/21/78.
He told me there "had been concerned expressed by many of the
citizens of Andover as well as by the city staff regarding the
fi~e department's ability to respond to fires during the daytime
when most of the volunteers would be working their fulltime jobs.
He also said the Fire Chief, Vie Evans", had made remarks which
led both he and Dave Almgren to believe they might be required to
join the volunteer fire department because of the daytiMe shortage
of personnel, and were very concerned they might be the only ones .
to respond to fires during the day.
I asked Ray who on the city staff was actually making plans to
test the fire department and he said the whole staff would discuss
it around the table at lunch time. (Andover City Hall has kitchen
and eating facilities for the staff.)
He told me the fire chief was believed to have permission from a
man in Ohio to burn the buildings on the location at which the
fire for the test was set, so they expected no problems with using
that site. He said this was located on the east side of County Road
59 at what would be the vicinity of 174th. He described it as an
old frame building and a metal quonset hut.
I asked Ray if any of the City Council had given authority for the
staff to do this and he said he thought he had heard Pat Lindquist
say she had talked with the Mayor about it. I asked Ray if he had
mentioned this to Deputy Augustson prior to the fire call and he said
he may have told the deputy that the ~ayor had okayed the test.
Ray Sowada told me he had obtained two bales of hay from the property
of Janett Eveland, an employee of the City of Andover. He said he
and Bob rluscovi tz went in the city pickup truck to the location
near 174th and County ~oad 59 (also known as Verdin), carrying
containers of water and a fire extinguisher. He described the
building as being all steel with a dirt floor and cement footings.
He said he cleaned away material around the floor then opened up the
hay bales by cutting the strings. He said he lit· the. hay and then
radioed to the base station at City Hall that there was a fire near
a quonset hut near 170th and Verdin Street on the east side. He said
he wasn't sure of the street number, he said it might have been 173rd
or 174th that he called in. He said he radioed that they should
call the Andover Fire Department. He said there was no mention made
of this being a test, but that he knew the girls at Ci.ty Hall were
aware that this was a test. lie said this call he made would have
been at approximately 1:05 P.!!. on September 28th. He said he did
not expect the Anoka Fire Department would be called as he understood
their policy was not to respond to grass fires. He explained that
this had been called in as a grass fire. He said after the fire was
going, he moved the truck out of sight and that he and Bob >luscovitz
stayed nearby with the fire extinguisher and water containers until
the fire department arrived, at which time they left the area. He
said there was no contact between them and the fire department
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. Page Four.
personnel at this time. I aSKed him if Bob rluscovitz had
participated in this and he said no, that ~uscovitz was just
along and probably had not known of it beforehand.
4:15 P.M., 10/18/78, I interviewed Rae Ellen Bakke at the City
Hall. She told me her job includes answering most of the
incoming telephone calls at the City Hall and that she has
received many calls from citizens exprc~5ing concern about the
Fire Department's abilities and about their high insurance rates
resulting from the Fire Department situation. She said many of .
the citizens were actually angrv, some even swore at her for not
being able to provide satisfactory answers.
She said all the staff except Bob Muscovitz was involved in the
talk of testing the fire depart~ent. She said in her opinion
the only time of actual planning occurred the day before the fire
call was made. She said Deputy Augustson was making a visit to
the City Hall and was talking with her and with Dave Almgren and
Ray Sowada. She said they described to Deputy Augustson their
plans, and that either Almgren or Sowada had told Deputy Augustson
the Mayor thought it was a good idea. She said this was the first
she'had heard of any knowledge on the !-Iayor's part. She said that
Delores Hanson and Janett Eveland would also have been present
during this conversation'she believed. She said she has witnessed
joking and horseplay during fire department training sessions and
that this has added to her concern about the fire department.
Rae Bakke told me she WaS on the telephone handling an incoming
call when Ray Sowada had radioed in that the fire was going. She
said Delores Hanson received the radio call, then called Central
Communications. Rae Bakke volunteered that she had provided Ray
Sowada with the matches used to start the fire, since because he
doesn't smoke he doesn't carry them~
4:45 P.M., 10/18/78, I interviewed Dave Almgren at the Andover City
Hall. 'He said he is the Building Inspector for Andover and has been
employed with the City since July 1978. He said during the first
part of September, he and Ray Sowada had had occasion to put out
a fire in an old metal quonset hut near l70th and Verdin Street.
He said they didn't even know how to activate the City's Fire
Department at that time. He said the whole staff had discussed
testing the fire department during lunch hours, but he did not
know of any authority or permission from the ?!ayor or Council to do
this. I asked hi~ if he had heard anything about the Mayor being
aware of it and he said he thought the Hayor might have been aware
of it but he didn't know from whom he had heard this. I asked him
to describe the conversation with Deputy Augustson the day prior to
the test and he said he was there but could not recall what was said.
I asked him to describe to me what he believed was going to happen
and who was going to do what during the test itself. He told me
that he was going to go to the vicinity of the fire barn and note
the arrival times of the fireJ!len. lIe said he informed the City
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· . Page Five.
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Hall Base Station of the arrivals and the times in a~ least two
instances. He said he did not know who was going to set the
fire but knew that Ray Sowada Was going to that location with
a city truck.
11 A.M., 10/25/78, I interviewed Delores Hanson at the Andover
City Hall. She is the Building Department Clerk, and has been
employed by the City since Hay of 1975. She said she was aware of
the talk by some of the City staff people that the fire department
should be tested. She said she also heard part of a conversation
between Rae Ellen Bakke, Ray Sowada and Deputy Len Augustson the .
day before the fire test, during which Ray Sowada WaS telling
Deputy Augustson they were planning to test the fire department's
response and wanted the deputy to call the fire alarm in. Delores
said although she was present during the talking and some of the
planning she did not consider herself a part of it. She said
although she did not vocally oppose their plan, she did not feel
that she approved. Delores said she felt it was a test of the
integrity of the fire department people and this she did not like.
She said she is, however, very conscious of the need for a good
fire department as she had seen two homes in Andover burn, which
fires were handled by the Anoka Fire Department but they had
arrived too late. She said she has not personally received any
phone calls by concerned citizens such as Rae Ellen Bakke has.
Delores said on the day the fire test WaS made, Ray Sowada asked
Janett Eveland for hay to use in this test, which he got from her
place. She said she also heard Pat Lindquist had asked Bob
Muscovitz to fill water containers and place them in the truck.
I asked her if she knew who told her this and she said no. She
said Ray Sowada had voiced concern that Bob Ifuscovitz would tell
the fire department about the test if he knew of it. I asked
Delores to tell me what she believed was going to happen prior to
the test actually being made. She said from what she had-heard
them say she expected Dave Almgren to be watching for the firemen
at the fire department and that Ray Sov,ada would actually set the
fire. She said she expected Ray SO\vada would radio the City Hall
with the infor~ation and that Central Communications would then be
contacted by telephone. She said she knew of no plan as to who
would actually telephone Central Communications. She said she
usually handled the base radio at City Hall because it was nearest
her desk. When Ray Sowada called in she responded. She said the
first time he called that he should have the fire going in a few
minutes. Then he called again saying it was going. She seemed
unsure but recalled Ray Sowada used the words brush fire although
she expected hay bales to be set. She said she was not aware that
the bales were going to be set on fire inside a building. When
Sowada had called in saying the fire was going, Rae Ellen Bakke was
on the telephone. She had hoped Rae Ellen would telephone Central
Communications. After a short while she said Sowada called back and
asked if Central Communications had been called and she said no.
She then decided that she would have to call it in. I asked her if
she had read Rae Ellen Bakke's transcription of the taped phone
calls and she said she has and agrees that that is how the conversatior.
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went. She said Scwada and Almgren were trying to communicate with
each other but could not. She said both she and Rae Ellen relayed
messages for th~_ She said she recorded the tiDes Dave Almgren
radioed in and that Ray Sowada had pic~ed up that sheet from her
desk afterw,ards.
.
Delores says she feels those involved were sincere in conducting the
test of the fire ¿epartment and were pleased if surprised at the
quick response which was received. She doesn't know 'how Bob Muscovitz
feels regarding this, however, but suspects he was miffed over being
excluded from the talk of the testing. .
11:45 A.M., 10/25/78, I interviewed Janett Eveland at the Andover
City Hall. She is a part time employee and has been since 1963.
Her title is bookkeeper, and her job includes handling the city's
financial books. (I understand she is a diabetic, and has recently
lost both her mother and her husband.) During this interview, she
told me she was aware of the discussion and the planning to test
the fire department but did not participate in any '~ay herself. She
said she was "just there". She said Ray Sowada had asked her for
hay to use. for the test and she had consented. She said they have
a lot of hay on their property which is no good for anything now.
She said she believes there was honest concern over the fire
department being untested in any real fires, and now feels pleased
at the fire department's response. She said during the discussions
of testing the department she had offered no approval, objection or
opinion of any kind, but personally did not feel it was a bad idea.
She said she feels it is something that just got out of hand. I asked
her if all the staff was involved in the conversations and she said
she did not think Bob Huscovitz was aware of what was bing planned.
Noon, 10/25/78, I interviewed Bob rluscovitz at the Andover City
Hall. He has been an employee of Andover since 6/22/76 and is-a
Maintenance Man. He said he is also a volunteer fireman and has
been since the fire department was created. He said, however, he
has been excluded from most of the fire department's training
sessions.
I asked him if he was aware ahead of time that there was a plan to
test the fire department and he said no. He said the morning of
the day the fire call was made Ray Sowada took the city truck for
awhile and when he returned there were two bales of hay in it. He
had asked Sawada what the hay was for but was given no answer. He ¡
said he had asked Sowada (who is his supervisor) if they were going I
to mulch roadsides and Sowada had replied "you ...,ill see". After
lunch, Sawada had told him to go with him but would not say where
they were going until they had driven past the fire barn. At this
point Sowada'told him they were going to set a fire to test the
fire departmßnt's response. ~ uscovitz said he had asked Sowada ,
,
on what authority they were doing this and Sawada had told him it was
Pat Lindquist's. Nuscovitz said he did nothing but watch Sowada,
and wanted nothing whatever to do with it. He said he stood outside
the quonset.·chutc:as Sowada put the bales inside. He said Sowada . ,
poured gasoline on the hay after breaking the bales and then "threw
a match to it". They both then got back in the city truck and Sowada
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Page Seven.
drove across Ver~in Street to watch for the arrival of the
fire department. He said Sowada called in by radio to the base
station at City ~all that he had the fire going and to call
Central Communications. He said they watched the Andover volunteers
arrive, and also the arrival of the Anoka Fire Department. He said
apparently Davi¿ Almgren was involved in a radio equipped vehicle
as he and Sowada were trying to cODIDunicate but could do it only
through city hall. He said it sounded as though Almgren was
positioned some~~ere watching the firemen's activities. Muscovitz
said he was lat~r told by Sowada to forget he was there. .
For other inforration refer to memoranda on City of Andover
stationery which includes a September 29 memo from Patricia Lindquist
to the Mayor an¿ Council, and excerpt from the minutes of an
October 4, Andover City Council Special ?Ieetìng which are provided
by Patricia Lin¿guist, and minutes of the October 4, Special Council
Meeting as prep~red by Rae Ellen Bakke. Also included is a 10/1/78
by Anoka Sheriff's Deputy Augustson."
Jerry Dhennin
JD:sw
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