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Home My WebLink AboutSP December 27, 1978 · " " ~ 01 ANDOVER SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING 27 December 1978 Minutes A Special Meeting of the Andover City Council was called to order by Mayor Jerry Windschitl on December 27, 1978, 7:30 PM, at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard 00, for the purpose of: 1) Dealing with the Fire Drill of 9-28-78 2) Two appointments to the Planning I'< Zonin¡; Commission Mayor Windschitl: So that the meeting is run properly, there are a number of rules: 1) Any statements or questions that anyone wants to make, that person will come forward, give their name, address and the question or comment. Councilpersons Present: Lachinski, Orttel, Vanderlaan, McClure Also present: City Attorney, Bill Hawkins; Councilpersons-elect Peach and Jacobson; City Staff Members: Pat Lindquist, City Clerk; Dave Almgren, Rae Ellen Bakke, Deloris Hanson, Ray Sowada, Bob Muskowitz; Fire Chief Vic Evans and Fire Personnel The order will be: Mayor's Statement and Questions Council Question Councilperson-elect Questions Fire Chief Assistant Fire Chief Fire Marshal ~- Any other officers Questions from the audience So that we don't repeat ground already covered by the Anoka County Attorney, unless there is something unclear, the questions should be questions the sheriff's depart- ment didn't answer. This is the statement I have relating to the criminal charges. At that point in time the charge questions will be dropped. 2) I am not going to allow any questions for a personal attack or someone's integrity. The Mayor's Statement: Andover City Council, on the criminal charges, rea::ling directly from the report of the County Attorney: "I have reviewed the criminal stetutes to determine whether the acts of the peopld involved violated any criminal law. My review has lead me to the conclusion that no criminal law has been violated. The only two statutes which appear to have any application are M.S. 609.565, simple arson, and 609.686, false fire alarms. Arson requires destruction by fire of the property of another without consent. Clearly such was not the caSe in this event. False fire alarm, while not well defined in the statute, requires at a minimum that the report of a fire have no basis in fact. In this event there was, in fact, a fire. The report, therefore, not being entirely false, is not a false fire report." No law has been violated. This dispenses with that issue. In an atte~pt to clarify.a couple of things, I wish to make the following comments: The first one deals with the statement made to the Andover City Staff from the City Special City C oil M, .ng 27 December 19,0 Page Two Mayor's Statement Continued . . . of Anoka Staff. The Andover City Staff received some information by phone from the City of Anoka Staff which was to the effect that I was going to file criminal charges against the Andover Staff on the fire call, on this fire call. This information had been given to the Anoka Staff person by a member of the Anoka Fire Department. I have never talked to any member of the Anoka Fire Department about this issue and have not told anybody that I was going to file criminal charges against any memb~r of the Andover Staff. As I have told everyone, this issue was to be determined by the appropriate law enforcement officials. Upon a hearing, upon hearing about the Anoka statement, I ca lled the City Manager, who wrote the City of Andover a letter explaining this issue, how this issue got started. This letter should clarify the issue and I request that a copy of the letter become part of tonight's official record. The second one is statements in the letter received by the City from Robert M. A. Johnson and this letter and the attached memo from Jerry Dhennin. A number of com- ments are made that City Staff thought that I had prior knowledge of the test or that I had authorized the test. I have not on any occasion given expressed or implied authorization for any City Staff person to conduct any type of fire department drill test. I was asked by the City Clerk what my feelings were on the test. I informed the City Clerk that I would not authorize such a drill and felt we could obtain response times through the Deputy Sheriff. This was the last I heard of such a test until the Andover Fire Chief calleG me at home after the test was done. The Council has received two mêmos from the City Clerk relating to the above issue and I request that these become part of the minutes tonight. At no time prior to the test was I informed by either the City Staff or the Anoka Ccunty Fire Depa.tment regarding the details of the test. And I guess at this point in time I would like anyone, and please feel f.e~ to ask uhatever questions 0: me or of any items that related to this issue at this point in time. Maybe we can get rid of this one question. Let me first start with the Council. Is there any questions or anything else that needs to be clarified on that one? Anyone? Any questions? Ortte 1: As to your involvement? No. Mayor: Anybody here? Anybody on the -- any officials of the Fire Department? Any questions or is there anyone that has any questions on that item? Okay. The questions that I would like to address and I guess I am a little bit handi- capped. Do you know, is Bob coming or not? Does anyone know for sure if h~'S coming or not? I guess I've got to ask the question in a different mann~r then -- and I don't know. Ray, the question that I would like to deal with in, "nd I don't know if all of the staff -- have you seen Jerry Dhennin's memo? Has everybody seen the memo? Wzll then I'll -- I have a -- then Bob Muskowitz's statement that he gave to Jerry Dhennin, he's talking about the fire and that type of thing. There's a sentence before this which is not immaterial to the questions Ifm trying to ask and he ends the paragraph, IIHuskovitz said he was told by Sowada to forget he was there." And I guess without Bob being here, I don't know in what context this was made but I would like a clarification on that statement, if it was made or if this is quoting out of context or if it's an incorrect quote or ... Ray Sm,ada: I don't think I even made that statement, to tell you the truth. Mayor: I am a little bit puzzled as to how it got into the whole conversation here and I was trying to get this one point clarified. Special City ( :i1 Me tng 27 December 1, u Page Three Ray: I will swear that I didn't say it, I don't remember. (Conversation about getting the microphone cord back into the audience to make it convenient for everyone.) Hayor: Okay, if we get questions, you can simply come up to the microphone. Do you feel you (recording clerk) got that recorded on the tape? Everything? (Yes) So itls really your understanding Ray, that you didn't make that statement? Ray: No, ut uh. Hayor: No there -- and by the way, we asked the Sheriff's Department to be here tonight. Apparently we didn't succeed in getting them here. Pat has tried all day to try to get either the Deputy or the Deputy a~d the Sargent here and apparently was not successful because I did have one question that dealt with the Deputy here also. A~d maybe again I can, you know, I guess I wouldn't accomplish anything. Pat Lindquist: I was able to contact Sargent Erickson and he in turn I believe talked to Dwyer who reported they felt we had answered all questions to Jerry Dhennin and, therefore, felt there was no more they could say and that's why they are not present tonight. Hayor: I guess then there's -- the question I guess I wanted to ask was -- maybe if anyone on the Staff can clarify it -- there's a statement in here where Dhennin is interviewing Deputy Auguston and there's a statement in here that he said that Ray Sowada did most of the talking. Ray Sowada also told him that he had the Hayor's okay to do this. Deputy Auguston said he suggested they do it themselves and I was trying to get Some clarification as to what it is that they do themselves? Was he referring to the -- making the call themselves, was this a request where he was asked to turn the call in and he suggested that the Staff do it themselves? Ted Lachinski: Hell, the problem that I had with the reFort was that each individual was interviewed but it didn't seem like there was any follow-up. In other words, if SDr.1e individual such as the question you asked earlier that Bob may have asked somzthing. There seemed to be no follow-up to find out if somebody said that. Several places in here I find references or vague references to the Mayor's okay or, as you have clarifißd that. At least there was some conversation between yourself and the Clerk as to -- that it was not okay. And yet I see many references in the document here which would indicate that someone was saying that they either had Pat's okay or the Mayor's okay and I guess I'm -- it just leaves me bothered by the fact that, you kno\-l, they have done this report and that seems to be the one thing that We could get ans"ered that would be at the crux of this whole thing as to, you know, how much real involvement -- most of the people that Were involved in this whether they provided the matches or they called in the fire call, are really insignificant involvement but if -- someplace along the line -- apparently there were, you know, regular discussions around the lunch table or what have you that this may be -- it was ~ good idea or just maybe was not a good idea but that they were at least thinking about doing it and I guess unless the City Staff opens up and really just tells us, you know, what had occurred, I don't see how we 3re going to ge~ anyt~ing out of them by just asking them point blank c..uestions. - Special City C ,il Ht .ng 27 December 19.v Page Four Mayor: Can you get at the question you want ~nswered and we try to get to ... Ted: Ine q~estion I would like ansyereJ is just, you know, let's se2 if we can g~t the City Staff here to tell us really, you know, how mJcn cross involvement by tbe City S taf f was there? There are vague references to a good deal of it and I guess I woulJ ask the question, now really, what goes on here at City Hall? Are ....'e spending hours upon hours worried about things that are not really of concern or that maybe. CQul-~ be addressed and a point of concern where it could be answered? I guesc I would just like to know what goes on at City Hall? Rae Ellen Bakke: I'll answer that. Mayor: Could you come up to the mike, Rae., please. Rae Ellen: Hours and hours were not spent planning this thing. And as for the Mayor's involvement, what I remember hearing -- I don't know what point in time, was that Jerry thought it was a good idea but we didntt hear the last, that he was worried about the liability of it. And we never even thought about liability. I'd say the whole plan took 20 minutes. Ted: So what you are saying is that there -- because whether I guess, you know, you made your statement to Jerry about what your involvement was but in this case maybe soc~ leakage of that inforQation was detrimental to the cause here. In other \vords, some of the information got out and some people took that as implied consent. In oth~r words, an okay to do this. Does that -- is that a correct interpretation of what happened? Mayor: I don't think that's the Clerk's interpretation of it but I'll leave her speak for herself. Pat: Yes. Hhat I would like to say is when I did call Jerry about it, I asked him about the Fire Department's response time. He talked about the ca lIs that he had received, that I had received, that other members of the Staff had received, from citizens who were concerned about the Fire Department -- their response time -- if I recalled, I did ask Vic earlier -- I don't know how long earlier, if it ,vas a month, two weeks, prior to that, the Department, when they went out on a drill, if they knew it was going to be a drill or if he just put through a call and said go here, go there, whatever it was. And he said no, that the Department knew ahead of time if they were going to a fire or if it was going to be a drill. And when I mentioned it to Jerry, Jerry said yes, he thought it was good that r~sponse time be found out of what the Fire Department's response time was. He was referring strictly to response time. Then he said, well, you can simply ask and I've told him just what I've told you now. That the Department knows ahead of time. They aren't -- like in their homes as though a real fire call was coming in -- seeing how fast it takes to get to where they've got to go. And then I mentioned what was talked about. Jerry in turn said well, I'd like to see something t~ the effect -- I'd like to see the response time checked but he says I don't really like that -- I don't like the liability in it and something to the effect that the Council, if they gave approval, they would be sUJjecting the City to personal liability or the liability end of it. And at that time, uh, as far as I can remember) this was 3~ months ago, I think I told the entire Staff what Jerry had said. That he thought that it was a good idea to check the resFonse time and I do remember talking to Lenny Auguston, the Deputy, and asking him that - Sp~cial City C ,il Me ng 27 December 19;u Page Five Pat Continued . . . when a real fire call went through, that he check the time because they get the call -- it comes through on their radio too -- to check the time on it and then check the response time wh~n the Department got to the fire. And I didn't say let us know, let the Council know, or anything else because I assumed that if it was really good we'd hear about it and if it was bad the Council would hear about it. Ani that's all I can remember. I don't know if I t;ent out after I had talked to Jerry and said this is exactly verbatim "hat Jerry said but there was no explicit approval from me, from Jerry, from anybody, it was just a conversation type thing. It wasn't -- I think it's a great idea, go do it. There was nothing lik~ that said by anyone. Ted: Okay. Maybe you can clarify one thing for ~e, Pat. In here there is a reference to you -- someone said that you told MJs~owitz to put water barrels in the back of the truck. Pat: I absolutely did not. In fact, I "las no:: eveu aware û£ it when I leEt that morning, incidentally. l'ed: Anù you were not apparently aware that this was h3ppcning on the day thaL it did happen at all? Pat: Yes, I was aware that it was going to happen that day but I didn't knew hOt; tho hay -- that th2re was èven hay secured. In fact, I thought the hay was a couple of ba le s tha.t were up in that quonset hut. I didn't knot; of any of the plans to get the hay, to take it up there, and I didn't tell anybody to fill ~ny water tanks. Ted: Okay. Then, I guess well -- the question I would have then is, since you were -- you had a good u~derstanding or what the Mayor's interpretation was of how the situation should be handled, if you k~ew about this situation, why didn't you try to put a stop to it? Pat: I don't know. I honestly can say I don't know. I had -- we did not think of anything malicious, that was not even thought about. It -- no concern of -- not no concern, I shouldn't say that, but no intention of any malice to anyone. It was simply a co~cern type -- I thought it had been dropped once right after I talked to Jerry because it did -- nothing t;as mentioned for about another week on it, and then that morning, that's when it was said they -- that it was going to be done. Ted: Then when the statewent was that -- well Muskowitz had asked Sot;ada on what authority they t;ere doing this, Sowada told him it t;as Pat Lindquist, at least that was under his -- his idea Has that it was okay. Not that it was okay, but that you ~ere aware of it. Pat: I cannot speak for Ray, he'd have to answer that himself. I don't know what Ray's feelings Here when he replied that, you will have to ask him. Ted: I guess that's all the questions I have. Mayor: Okay. Ken: The only thing I really didn't quite understand is when the -- Deputy Auguston had supposedly asked the Sargont if that was a proper thing to do and he's not here an1 w~ won't get an answer fram them period. Did he reply back here and told the people not to do it, or just what happened? I g~ess we have no way of knowing that if they don't want to tell us. Special City G ~il M:: ng 27 December 19/0 Page Six Pat: He didn't call back and say anything. Ken: He didn't call back and say anything? Mayor: Councilperson Vanderlaan. Mary: I have no comments at this time. Mayor: Councilperson-clect Jacobson, any questions at this time? Don: I guess I purposely stayed away from it so that I could maintain some sort of objectivity. I am not a member of the fire departm~nt and obviously I don't work for the city staff, so maybe I can see it without some built-in prejudices On either side. It seems to me fran reading the materials and listening to the conversations that the city staff through a series of either misunderstandings or miscalculations or whatever you want to call it, either they knew it or they didn't know that they were doing sometning -- the event happened. No one ~as hurt. The possibility of som0.one being inju1.'ed certainly W2S there, but nobody was. And the County Attorney says that there is no criminality involved in it and that -- that issue is seLtIed without any .further deliberation. I guess my feeling -- if I -- if it ~~r2 up to rnß to decide on what to do I would say that both sides have had a traumatic experience. I am sure city staff won't do anything like it again or if something comes ap close to it, they will certainly be very careful in how they react. I guess I woulJ let it drop at that point and say that ev~rybody on both sides of the issue :icar-ned a lesson, a good hard lesson and everybody has 'Ipaid!' for 'What ha;::; L::-anspired and I t~1in~ tl:at in its..:l~ shoulJ be suf£icien:':'. Hayor: T:.ank YU;J. Den. Coun.: ilf'~rson-elec:= Peac~l? roob: I will llüld r.LY qUèstio.l~ a:: tilis tim¿ anJ will as:'~ tíi2~1 as Assistan:: Cider. Ma./ol-: Fiuç. Ti.le i"ire Chief'! Vic: Would you like ~..3: to us~ thè microphone? M.oyor: r.=- yoa lmuld. please. a~ù ~ayue We can move thz -- well, I buess we've got a probl02:m 0ecause welre going to ì.lecu some answers -- yeah -- dues this one -- is this one work1ng? (Arranging of the raicrophone and some m:.:r:lbling thereabout occurred here.) I1cClure: Bob l-t.ls1<owitz phoned m¿ this evening. I doni t knm.¡ whether lle phoned anybody else. inquiring as co whether he was supposed to attend. He was going -- he told me that h~ was going to phon2 scm2body a little later and didn't specify who so I don't , so I don't -- for what it's worth. Kay: I asked Bob at quitting time if h~ was couing and he said he didn't know (unclear conversation without the microphona) . . . h" knew that h" should have been here. I asked him when he L~ft:. Vic: I have basically two types of qu~stions. I have ny own qu~stions and some that I have been asked to ask. And the first group of questions are of that type and I vlOuld lik2 ta ask Rae Ellen to address three questions. Sinc~ you do handle most -~ incor.Üng calls, why \,;reren' t you Îûmiliar enough to give satisfactory ûns...¡ers to Special City C :il He ng 27 December 19)ú P.:lge Seven Vie cont inued . . . public queries regarding the Andover Volunteer Fire Department or refer th~se calls to those who could? I think that in the investigation this \,]as one of the big issues that led to having this type of a fire drill and I guess, yo~ knm.¡, I wo~lù lik¿ to know why either more people weren't aware of what we were doing or the questions weren't referred to us if there was not an answer because according to the testimony, there were quite a few irrate callers or they were irrate after th,y called. I guess I would like to know why. Rae Ellen: For one thing, my job is not to follow-up the fire department and be updated on everything they do. Since my list at that time was March on the number of volunteer fire fighters and they said well how many are there there now? I don't know. Hy list says Harch. Some of the types of phone calls -- I gave this to Jerry Dhennin -- were, especially after the bond issue passed. I was the one ~ho made it pass. I am a god-damn Eonofabitch. Why donlt you know what's going on around there? My insurance rates just wènt up, they said at the public hearing they "'o"lld go down. When will they go dow~? I don't know, when will they go down? Vic: Were you asking me? Rae Ellen: Yes. Vic: That was addressed in the bond pamphlet. It said approximately a year from the date of the bond issue. Rae Ellen: But -- how about when insurance companies -- the policies are renewed and they found out they went from a 6 to a 9? Their insurar..ce rates go up. Vic: We ~id a pretty good investigation of that issue because all of a sudden just hefore the meeting about the bond iS5~e took place there was a big hot item as to my insurance amounts would go up bec~use some people were carrying an Anoka 6 rate and we found that it just isn't that way. That the people who said they were going to go from a 6 to a 9, it turns out that the difference was like $2.00 - 2 to 3 dollars from a 6 than -- Rae Ellen: That makes a lot of difference to some people. Vie: I think they have been misinformed as to how much it would increase or they did not look around enough -- trying to throw a scare into them. r..a2 Ellen: Sure, th~n they call me. Hayor: Wait a minute, wait a minute . . . Vic: Tha tis, you knu\.}, that's som~thing that was done before that bond issu~ meeting. Rae Ellen: Then they call me. Vic: Well, then they should have been either referred to us -- Rae Ellen: O~ay, we have -- since that time I have gotten a direct order to refer all fire d2partment calls regarding -- of any type, to you and 11m sure you have received quite a few. - Vic: Fine. Special City C oil Ne ng 27 Décember 19ìo Page Eight Hayor: Rae, any mo~c examples that yo~ have on that? I'm g~ing to try to stay away from the discussion about some of tile old questions of the insurance, or '\V·ita tev¿r, of that type of thing. Do you r..avc Som2 more e.xamples that you wish to give 01' is that the end of what you wanted to giv'¿;? Rae Ellen: ~Ie 11 -- O:,ay, I . . . Hayor: Rae, please '-lse the z:1ÍcropLone, woald you? i{ae Ellen: Some 0.2 t~1eD1 w¿re: "ho sho..tld I call if ther·e is a £ i l'e ? Centra 1 Cùmr:lU:1ica t iO..1S. Shouldn't I call this num~er? N~. Do¿s the fire depa~t~ent hav2 tù run t.:.eir síre~....s ...!.vt:.rj Sa:::.urd.:.y r:1Jrning7 '1.';.:.1 t was one good Le. I :::'ricd c.:::.l:i~-,g the Fire C:1..~.(:.í anLÌ llJ '5 not t~lere, no one answ<!rs. I suggest -- h~, I SUf:.g~5t you call that a~~er t:.ùnight. Nore verbal abuse. How miJch will tax2S è.e raiso;.;d \,¡ith the bond issue? I ¿unit know personally. Call thç fire departmçnc, call the fire departmçnt. Jo~ P-..:ach gave them the num:'ers and everything. Hayor: All right, thank yo:}. .tat, do you wish to address that question? Pal: Yeah, I guess the one question you m~ntioned ~- you didn't want to g2t back on the iasurance but I've had two or three calls on and I have had them from agents and I can speak directly because it just hzppencd to m~ three weeks ago. We just insured our new 110m2 and I told him where We lived, what the address is, they know what it is, I was given a 6 rating. I went on further to explain that Andovel- was getting their ünw d~partment that wo~ld b¿ in force by 1980. I asked ìÜm, what will happen to my insurance? H~ said your insurancè will probably increase 10 to 20%, right now, and that was American Family. So if anyone wants to veriiy i~ they can. The agent tha t called me was from Farm - Farm something -- Farmers Insurance Group -- and he said right out that any of his policy holders that 'V1ere rated notV' -- he rated them 6 -- anybody in Andover he rated a 6 -- when Andover got their own department, thçy would all go to a 9 and there again he said it could be anywhere depending on what their coverage \>'"as, the amount of their prc'Glium, could go from $20.00 a year up to $100.00 a year in increase. And I have referred like [we Ellen has done, all the calls to the fire department or thç fire chief, to call Vie. And some p~ople, like she said, you get abuse, they don't want to call. It's just like anything else, if someone wants to bellyache about someone, they're not going to call the indivi¿ual and do it, they're going to do it to someone else and that's what we've had here. That's the type of calls we've had. Ted: Do we have a regular procedure in the office where say, like if Rae Ellen cannot answer a question and instead of saying no, write down the question and get the phone nu~ber and the person's name and have some way of getting back to that person? Pat: I would say, those type of calls, probably 507. of those calls they will not give you a number. We get the same thing with dog complaints, fast cars, junk cars in yards. The minute you tell somebody, may I please have your name and number, they'll hang up on you. Ted: Hell, to my way of thinking, if I can't answer so~ebody's question and they don't have the decency to give me their n~mber, I don't feel one bit bad about that. Pat: W11at we were originally trying -- no, I can't say we feel bad about it. If we get a complaint in, the people are told to give the complaint but we do have to have their name. This is a policy we've had since I can rem8mber, and We do not give out the names of who the complaiatant is and we've told them that, that your name <Hill not be given ont unless subpocaned by court and then we have to do it. And I'd say 25% of those say I'D John Jones, I live at such and such an address, I've had it, take care of this. Hhereas the rest of them will say well let me ~peclal L:Hy L : 11 Me ng 27 December l>fu Page Nine Pat continued . . . talk to them and see what I can do, aw never mind it isn't that impo~tant and let it go. And that's usually any type of complaint goes regardless of what it is. A.nd as far as the fire department, I've probably had I would say half a dozen complaint-type cŒlplaints. The others have been questions. Some live been able to answer, others I lla,.:en· t. If I haven't bGen able to I've referred them to Vie. Now whether or not they've called him I don't know. ¡-wyor: O~çay, no\·! Vie, 11m going to interrupt here for just a minute. I see Bob is here and I want to try to get back to my original question and try to g~t this point clarified. N.)w Bob, in Yo:Jr testimony that's given to Jerry Dhennin there is a statement in thc second to the las t paragraph "hich is, I guess at least important to myself, itls the -- I'm quoting. "Muskowitz said he ..!as later told by So"ada to forget he was ever then~. -- referring to the fire!! and 11m wonJer-ing, do you know if this was a direct statement which you made or is tl1is a stateraent that I s madè. O:.Jt or context or -- I fro just trying to verify how this statement \-Jas made? Is this a correct 3tatem¿nt? Bob: CJr'rec t. }layor: U~ay, becaus¿ W3 have got a disagr~emen~ betwc8n yo~ a~d ~ay as tù Lne accu~aey of that statet.1.Jnt. ß·:Jo: 'l':1.1 t is a (:orr2ct stat~~ellt. Hilyor: As it was writtQn'! Vie: O:,ay, ::h<3n ò.:...ayDc I coulJ th3~ go :"'ack -- I have So=1e qu~stivas of Bob. Bùb, this is for YÙ'-1. When Ray told you tll.J.t :.~ \~-as sett.ing -- that he was s¿tting the fit·e oa Patls authority, did you bèlie;:~ him at that time that he \·;as going it on Pat's authori::y? Was it, you know, just tIle type of COIIJTIlznt -- off the cuff type oE thing -- or did you beliè.ve him at that timè. that he really did hav~ Pat's authority to do it? Boo: I bèlie'\'e he had som~body's authority and Pat was m~ntioned. ¡-wyor: Bob, v.:auld you please com2 up to the microphone? O~(ay -- Vie: O~ay, . . . }layor: Ray Sm~~aJ.:t would like to address that qu~stion. Ray: Can I ask a question aboat au~hority or knowledge, that's Wllat lid like to know. Thcy're .:¡ little bit diff~rent. N1ùwlcdge of that. Vie: T,.,lcll, just going by the co~nents in the investigation and it said authority. }Í;.lskm..¡itz said he asked Sm.¡aJa on what authority you \.¡ere doing this and Sawada told him it was Pat Lindquist. Ray: There was knm.¡ledge of it but not authority . . . }hyor: h.ay, could we 2~t you to r¿peat that into the microphone? Ray: Bob was the one that said authoritj'. I said knowledge, Pat's knowledge of knowing what we were doing. Special City C oil No ng 27 December 19ìò Page Tèn Vie: So you're saying that Pat knew that you ~ere going out that morning to set a fire. Ray: Right. Correct. Vie: And that you felt that you were operating under her authority to do that thèn? Ray: She knew what we were going to do, but authority -- that wans't brought up except that Bob said it maybe in a statement but knowledge as far as I can say. Pat knew what we were going to do. Vie: Pat stated in her November 22nd memo that the Mayor would not authorize the fire drill because there was a possible -- possible liability question. She also stated that she advised the staff of this. Were you informed that there was a possible liability issue and that the Nayor did not ~ant this fire drill to take place? Bob: I knew nothing about that. Vie: Okay. Do you eat lunch with the rest of the staff? Bob: Garbled response. Vie: The reason I ask that question, just about everybody -- Mayor: Bob, please come forward so we can get it on the mike. Vie: Just about everyone's comment was that the planning activity went on during lunch hours and 1 was wondering how this was accomplished if you ate lunch with the staff because you had no knowledge of it but you do eat lunch with the staff. That's all I have of you, ;Job. Now back to ~ae Ellen, one more question -- or two more questions. According to the testimony of Dèputy Sheriff Auguston, both you and Ray were in the office when he cam~ in and both tried to involve the Sheriff's Department in this test. Why do Y0el -- why did you feel that they were needed to perform this test? Why did you feel that they needed to ca 11 the fire in? Rae Ellen: Well, because Lenny's in the area all the time and he was going to check the response time and at first he agreed to do it, and I -- I believe at one point in time We even Jsked him to light it and he said no, but I'll try to be in the area. But if he had an emergency call h~ would not be in the area, Vic: Ynis was chosen in lieu of doing it the way it was done, You weren't -- he was going to do this in lieu of having som~one here at city hall call it in? H2 was supposed to be in the area, make the call using ~- Rae Ellen: That came first. We asked him first -- we asked him first to make the call and he said, I Ca:1't guarantee you b~causc he rnisht be 011 an emergency call and not even be in the area. So -- Vic: Okay. Did he later call back and say that he wouldn't do it or say he couldn't do it or anything? :::;pec~al City C ,it Ne n~ 0 27 December 197v Page Eleven Rae Ellen: ì~o, no. Vie: Okay, on~ other ques~ion. A statement that you made that you had personally \vitnessed joking and horseplay during f ire department training drills, and this further enhanced your concern abo~t the fire department. I have a question addressing that particular thing. The joking and horseplay you ';v~re concerned about, was it during actual trainin3 session time, cither before or after, or du~ing bLeak time? were you a~~'are of \}hen this took place? Rae Ellen: Tha olOe tila~ really stIC~5 out in ny nind Jesicles the laug:1ing and bells d inging all the trne at Wednesday nigii.t Capital Ir::.provemçut H2ctings v.hie:. w~r~ held here, W~ had ~o close the door a couple of t~2S 0eca;.¡se 1~ w<::.s So noisy in h¿rc, buí.:. Oì.l2 -- it WtiS <1 aot summer e\;c;aing .:lnci t:¡Ci \V"cre i:illing that tank...ll ou~ t...el:c. -- Vie: We wer~ haviag drills outside? Raa Ell<,n: l<.!aÌl. They -- I don't know 'W~lQ th¿y were, they w¿re sh00~ing each other wit:1 water and laughing and jokin~. It sounded like a 3.2 bar' a~ midnight. And a couple 0': t~L~m \·¡ere pulling down each o~her' s hats and the sirens W~~'ie going -- I -- \.¡hell I Cal.l1C arounJ that bend I thou¿;l1t there was aD. accide:1t because thos~ sirens \'¡er~ -- one truc~ was in the field over there and one was unJer the pmver lin¿s. And I really thought that somebody had been hurt, Vie: O:(ay, was it usual -- unusual or any different [ram what goes on with ~he ci~y personnel here at city hall? I r.lean, are lhere jokes told anJ Fcople laugh O~ occasion? Rae Ellen: Oa occas ion, Dut not every ~cdnesJay. Vie: How many training sessions hav~ you actually attenè.èd dnd have you attended ...- Rae E lien: I have never been tu oue. VIc: Okay. Do you feel that you can really make a fair ûssessment of th¿ men's inte3rity and/or ability by doing this? Rae Ellen: I don't question anybody's int'grity or aJility. I am concerned about the lack of daytim~ personnel though. - Vie: ü~ay, let's -- rill address that when I have -- Hayor: Thank you, l{ae. Vie: Ray Smvada. Pat stated in her November 22nd memo that the Mayor said he would not authorize the drill because there was a question of city liability. She also stated that she advised the staff of this? Were you informed of this that there was a liability issue and the ~ßyor did Got authorize it? Ray: We had talked about it and Pat said that th~re was a liability and that -- but that "as all that "as really said. That the Mayor didn't "ant to ¡jet involved \.¡ith it, the liability or anything like that. Vic: So you knew that the Mayor had not authorized it, that the council had not authorized it, I had nnt authorized it, and as far as you were concerned Pat had th~ kno"ledge of it and I guess -- ::>recial City C :il Me ng 27 Dccember 19/0 Pagc THe1ve Ray: Pat and the: city ere'" -- Pat and the city staff. Vic: Okay. This is sot:lething that was addressed a little bit before. Why did you te 11 Lenny tha t the Mayor ok~yed, gave the okay to conduct the drill? Do you remember that conversation with Lenny? Ray: I might have said something to that effect but when -- Like I said, just go done saying, it was with the knowledge as along as nothing was happening, nobody was personally hurt "r anything likc that, that the Hayor did know about it but that was prior to the thing that happened. Vic: You're saying that your conversation ''lith Lenny was prior to th~ -- Ray: No, no, no. That the Mayor knew that -- about the drill -- probably a week or so, you knmv, that -- it was like when we said. We had talked about it and said that he didn't want no part of it because of the liability. Vic: Okay. Ray: And it might have been mentioned whcn I was talking to Lenny about it. Vic: Okay, you meant the fact that the ~illyor had know1cdge of it but didn't Come dm.¡n -- Lay: Thc ~illyor had knowledge of a drill but hc didn't know anything about when, 'vhere, if it Has going to happen. IIc was just talked about that -- asked about his opinion of the drill and he didn't went nothing to do with it because of the liability. Vic: Okey. I'm going to skip that on~, that was asked before. That >las asked before. Okay. If you felt that what you \-lare doing \vas right, completely above board, \·¡hy \'las there no contact betwe2n you and the fire departI:1ent? This was at the fire scene? Either congratula.tin~ them_ for a job vlell done or at least tell thcm that that Has a test? Ray: l~inly because if we'd been standing around, they >lould have said hOH come thc fire's going on or -- there probably would have been an argument right then and there and I figured W~ were close enough, we seen when the crew -- Vie: You felt the firemen would b2 mad at you, is that what YOù are saying? Ray: Right. Because feelings \.¡eren t too good betv/cen th¿ ¡ire dcp.artment and staff .:It that time. Vie: Okay. 3ecause of wind conditio~s ani the £ac-t that the fire \'las reported as a brush fire in an area that is brush and pine forest, the City of Anoka responded with a bruch rig and a tank~r and we respondeJ with two brush rigs and a tank~r , all rolling throug~ the streets of Andover a~ cwcrgency sp~~ds. Do you realize ti.12 risk this drill presented not o¡¡ly to the men on t.:h~ A~Lo!\.a and Andover [il·e Jepartm2n:':s ~ut to the Andover r2sidents as well, R¿y: Yes. Vie: Wh~n dü you ~hink yo~ iirs: realize] t:Ü~? Spcc:'al Ci'y C -_il K, ng í.ï D-",(;eir.~~r 1 'J, .P..;.g~ T:.i¡: tCC:1 r~<iY : w~ll. ~\¡t..:17 time. you tu..:-u t¡l~ l.-ed libht un. there is a dan¿;e:-. !:.'.-¿ry timQ you go OU~ on ~t~ st~e¿t there is a dange= oi l.:':, any time, as far as t[ì.a t g..Jcs. Vie: AnJ you 3till ù.~cid~d to put on the drill ~ve~~ though this was -- evexybüJy knð'] that this llO:.lld happ~n1 Ray: It was pro~ably o~e of the last things tha~ were tl.ought or really, afte.r you cal1èd m~ and we starteJ talking a~o<.1:: it that nibh:::, \JaS proúaDly on.e thing that was brought up a¡tèl~~ards but it wasn't thought of in the exact moment. Vic: Ukay. When I called you on the evening of the [ire drill in an attempt to find out ,,¡hat happened, you told r.le twice that you knew nothing about the [i1'e drill,you were only driving by, saw the fir~ and called it in. Why? Ray: T'le :i:eason we said tha t is we ~anl~d to know the response time. And after th~ response tim~ and everything would be clarified, then '.¡o were going to eome out ,...ith and I WOJlc.l 11av~ saiJ, you know, abDut the fire. That was our main in::~ntion -- Vie: This was in the e\.'cning tha t I talked to you aad the response times wer~ known by then. Ray: The respù~se ti~e was not known until quite s~e time later anà everythinz; ...las put tog2.ther the next day or t\"O after that. Vic: So you -- Ray: ~e don't hav~ co~unicatío~ with Anoka Fire Department so we donlt know the exact response time of any of your fire calls. Vic: I think something that the. sta.ff tailed to recognize, this would have been cleared ~p with a question of any of the members of the fire departQcnt, was th~ fact that all times are recorded by the Central Communic.:1tions and this whole thing about clocking people when they got there and wìlen they got to the fire, you could have made a simple call to Central COL~unications anù got all our times. So it wasn't necessary to ti~e anything. Okay, ~hat would üave been your recammendation had the response failed? Suppose all your expectations had been met, nobody showed up and the thing was a complete bust, what do you think your recommendations would have been? Ray: I'll tell you Vic, this all com~ about when you went to the Personnel Connnittee asking for the city staff to go as a volunteer fire department and we did not personally -- you went to the personnel committee to ask for it. We Seen - at least I seen the anount of men you have showing up here during the day to fight fires and there are two men m~inly that show, sometim02S only one. And if they weren't hone at that time, it would leave Dave, I and Bob to answer the fire if you wanted to go to the personnel committee -- that way. And what happens if we don't make it, that T...~as one of the main things that \o72re in back of this whole thing -- in my mind, is why should We be forced into the fire department and -- when it's a volunteer fire department? Vic: Well, first of all, I neVer went to the personnel department and asked them to force anybody -- Ray: Not force, you went there to request -- Special City C o il !Ii es 27 December 19/_ Page Fourteen Vic: I went there to get a request to allow people who worked at city hall to join the fire department and to respond during the day. Not that anybody would be forced to -- forced or anything into joining the fire department. Ray: But that -- Vie: Just to allow then to join and respond during the day, if they so desire. Ray: \-Jell then communications must have got mixed up a little because I was hearing that you ";vcnt there for the thre2 personnel that we have to help you incresed your daytime fire fighting. Vie: YEah, that's always going to be a concern with us and lid like to have seen that happen but I certainly didn't go there and tell anybody that, you know, that you 1 ve got to make these guys join. Kay: I didn't say m~. You were requesting and a volunteer fire department is volunteer. Vic: I woul<1n' t have gune to the personnel committee and as~ed you to join, I would hav-e gone to yùu to ask you to join. Ray: You did ask me and what did I tell you? I says, I'll think abuut it and I did not say anything definit~. AnJ I ùidn It con:e bac~ with anything t<lith it. Ted: NOH it's pùssible t~at we're starting to g~t to t~e real crux of the proolQrn no<;v. And a clarification would be, £(a;, that it was not a request lila t you join lL.e volunteer fire depart~cnt, only that volun:"ct!l" .Eire-men be ;~_llmJed certain Lcne{"its. ~natls really what the [i~e chief and th~ fire department wer~ looking for. .i.-..;.ay: Well the COIIIill..u:-;.ications mJst: ~i.a\.~ got mixed ;Jp '..i:1en I h.::ard i::. 'causè: I :l2.ard it c.liffcrently w£len I Jot it -... go:: ~hc word about -- a'::":¿r that ..;.¿cting. I didn't g ,f tv at:'~aû :...hat neeting, I had ::'0 bO sOCleplace tl1at night. ~" ~2d: I ù.on I t think th~ f i:-¿ d~par::m~nt would want anyov"';'y in tht! £ ire dcpart.her..t \-,:10 was ~orccd into the iire ù¿partm..:nt. Vic: Okay, I ~la';e some r.IQre qU2.stions of yùu Kay of a sli£Lltly di¡ie~8a:: flavor. Why did you try t,~ involve the D~puty Sheriff in this test? \-illY "as -- I guess I ,lon't understand \-.lhy the. making oZ the p~lO~e call -- "the pho:1e call mechanism wasnl t thought ù2 uriginally. \~hy was hë ask~d to do it 'f Was it to give -- I have a feeling it was to give credence to the test. You know, if he ca lled it in he. woulcl be involv~d so then noboJy would be at fault. Kay: Hainly becausè L2nny's gQt communications right to Central and ~.;le Jon I t to c~ntral. Vic: Yes you 0.0, ¡~IS called the telephoa~. lZay: Yeah, a telephon¿, out I mean he IS got a two-way radio that you don't have to dial ~hc numbers. H2 had to call in -- "hich the -- it Jo~s say in th~ papèrs that we call in on our radio here, he got a cormaunicaLion right straight to central, you didn't have to take that. much time that it takes us to call in. ~pcc~al City C oil Hj es 27 D2ccmb~r 19/~ Page Fifteen \lie.: 1 uon't ~no~ i: timing ~as tnat big a òeal in this. It \1as;:¡\t an emergency situat:ion. Okay. T0atls a question we asked before and you said before that you. were not., Rae said that the Deputy Sheriff ne'....er c3lled back to say they \'lo:..1làn't get involved so I have to aSSur.1e that you -- then that you did not hear from them, that they would not g~t invol"Jcd. Ray: Right. Vic: Okay, did you feel making a [air ev&luation of the Andover Fire Department required setting a fire? This is one thing that I don't think any of us under- stand is uhy did it require setting a fire? Why not just call it in? kay: If we'd have called it in you would have called it the same thing as a false alann and that is a misdemeanor, calling in fake fire calls, is it not? Vic: So you started a fire so it wouldn't be a false alarm? Ray: Is is not? Vic: Thatls true. Ray: Right. Vic: Okay. Did you at one time during the job interviews for the position t1ç:: : ~ " . now hold state or imply that you uould join the fire departmGnt? Ray: I -- you can listen to the tapes, I says I would think about it and I seen pros and cons against it 'cause I used to belong to a conmunity that -- the p20ple I worked with would be volunteers. And you'd be working on a job and all of a sudden everything flew up in the air and they took off leaving you with whatever you were doing which sometimes was as important as the fire. Probiibly not at that second as important but when you've got 8 ton of blacktop that cooling off and you have to spread it or get it into a hole and stuff like that, it may not be as drastic as a fire but you've got to get rid of it before it hardens, too. And it does create problems and I did say that -- at my interview that I would think about it but I did have pros iind cons against the fire department. Vie: Okay. And you said you would thiak -- you were just thinking about it, 00 you Were non-commital. Then why were you sa concerned about being required in quotes "to j oin"? Ray: Well that's because I heard it from that meeting at the personnel -- like I said -- cammunications . . . Vic: You thought that they would force you to join the fire department? kay: I heard that -- communications must have got mixed up on the \.;ay because I had heard to that effect and I had even talked to Ted Lachinski about it that cne time and said it \Jasn't that way, but that was after it, so -- T¿d: R1.Y, maybe I can clarify that. If you -- I can u~derstanJ how you got the impression but -- I know I can remember talking to you at -- I knew that you had scm.e othcr concerns aÌJout joining the fire department too. Just SCrmè family concerns abo~t joining the fi~e dQP¿rtment too. Just SOID" family concerns and tÍ1at Special City C oil Hi es 27 De~cmber Ijìu Page Sixteen l~ay cont.inucd . . . sort of thing -- about yourself. If you rCffieI:1ber right, I told you that the fire department "as not for you and ti1at I certainly "auld not be eX?ècting yùu to join the fire dcpart~ent. Ray: But that was I think after this episode. T"d: I donlt think so, I I va been v;~ry careful i10~ to talk to anybody. Kay: It ¡'¡as at the ¡{,oad Gurrnni~tce l1ec~ing \Jhen \vc did talk about it at that time -- following . . . 11dyor: I have to intc.rrupt Íicr'e for just a minuLe, Vie. Do yoa hav~ any questions of auy nature of Bill? Bill has to lea~e in just a few minu~es? Vie: Ah, well maybe I could addr~ss O~le. issue t:i.at 1 S 0": quite a bit or concern to ~.l~ . Y'JU prè:\'iuusly opened your statC'í.l';i.it, HdjÙr, oy sayiûb ~hat: :: íl~ A~~o ~a CO:..ln t y ALtOLll....;Y ~léiS closed the files and saiJ ~hat there is no law 'uru~en .:.ind this type of thi~g. And .i buess I Ìla\."e concern dDDu:: ;:.~.¿ interpretatio~ o[ t~1(~ law. According to süW~ of the legal beagles who work at the fire cen~er at ~h2 U~iversity, the laws that t~lC Anoka County Attorney quoted were L::.ws that \Jcrc repealeJ. two years ago, 80 I kind of have a fear tllat il¿ I S not up to ùate on the i ir~ laws and that th" la"s tllat he quoted were repealed t\"/O years ago with other lélws that do not r'2:quirc some oE the things he quoted were required to justify an arson charg~ and, like I say, that closure I guess concerns m8. I don t t ~no'vJ, Bill, what can you Jo '" about it or if anything should be done a~out it, I r;uess it CO.-lcerns m..!. that laws 'l;ve.re quoted that had ù~èn repealed [o¡- two years now. Bill: I don~t -- I assume that the County Attorn~y knows what the law is and he has current copies of the l,--\oJ, so -- I can certainly look at t~c statute and see if Ì!¿'s looked at it. I have the current statute ann if there is some misunderstanding, I'll bring it to his attention Dut 11m no~ aware that that lau had been amended "ithin the past couple of years. Vie: That's the only question I have of him. Hayor: Bob, did you have any questions of Jill? Bob: Exclusive of criminal activity (garbled -- asked to go to the microphone) -- exclusive oE criminal charges, if the cO';J.ncil should decide to take disciplinary action, t1hat "ould the procedure be in rehard to the rights of the people involved? Bill: Well I think probably if there are going to -- the only time that we're going to b~ involved with any due process consideration -- if th"re "auld be anything in the nature of a termination or suspension or something of that nature. Absent that, there r~al1y is no procedural requirements. I think if one of thos~ factors were to be discussed or considered then perhaps a hearing would be in order for any employees that there would be considering taking that action against and have the opportunity to refute the charges and make some written findings before they make their decision. Bob: But there aren't require2ents about time, when they have to be notified and the public hearing? Bill: No, the only thing -- on employees, the only thing you're really concerned about at this point is the veterans preference la" "hich requires certain ~pecìai City C ~il Hi es 27 Veceilloer 19iv Page Seventeen Bill continued . . . procedures be set out. Bilt I always advise even though I think legally YOlt are probably on fairly safe ground witnout going throu¡;h a hearing procedure, I -- it's better pract ice for the council to follow that with ",rit ten notice setting out the allegations and affording the individual the right to be heard, so . . . Bob: Does there have to be a conclusion drawn before a hearing is :-..eld~¿ Bill: No. I think that -- B?b: In other 1<:ords, if the council -- suppose the council didn't know if perhaps a suspension or a termination or a reprimand was in order -- would a hearing be in order? Bill: Well that would be the purpose -- if they felt that they wanted to consider any of those alternatives, that would be the purpose of the hearing. To discuss those with the individual, allowing him to respond to the allegations that have been made and the council co~ld make a determination and that would be supported by written findings. Bob: l~ow much notice sp.ould they give the -- Bill: Oh, I would say probably a couple of weeks anyway. Bob: Bccause, you know, I imagine that would run into next year, no question about that. Bill: Yeah, a t this point. Hayor: Anything else of Bill? Please Coma up to the microphone, Ken. If you havß a question of Bill, otherwise I'm g0ing to go back to my order I was working with. Gary: My n"illß is Gary and I live at 168th Avenue, also on the fire depal~tr.tent . Nr. Hd,;.;kins, I'd like to ask Y:Ju, sir, VJe'rc all citizens here and we're concern~d about the situation that has happ2ned. Now grantcJ people do things som~times that are -- and they think about it afteno¡ards -- after they have done the situation, you know, like why did I ùo that? :bw b~ing in a lega 1 process, letls say that mysel£ and a £~W of the oth8r cieizens in this rüom or ~haLcver the case may be, we cic~ided to take it upon ourselves to do tLe same identical thing, let's s.:.:.y that Nr. -- l~t' s say that tte fi.re c:1i2.f was to prosecute -- VJar.tf2.d :'0 pros..2cute. ,p¿causl.l u': til¿ fac:": t::a ì:: W2 J id do tÌtis i!_lcßally supposedly, woulù Y0i...l tLh.~r.-cîo¡"t= 0>1 his reco~.:m;;;aJatiu:.l prosec;Jte myseli: anc1 laayÌJe a few oE the o::.hc:L" p2.o!-,le here b-2.cause we too~ it Up0fi o~rselves as citizens ~u ùo tile identical same t:l~ng as thß people that Wcl' re ~al~ing about now? ¡¡ill: W.....uld I -- any decision tÌi.a:: I \..oulJ. make regarding prosecution is not mad¿ on ::h8 L.l~is of where the person is employed or WIlat tÌ12Y do. It would b~ made on the basis or whether or no::' there w¿:;,s any .zact situation thai: wa:.rlà constitute a violation uf a criminal law and in ::~is instai"lce if the county v¡as examining th2 situatiœ1 with anybody else he would have reached the same co~clusiun, I'm sure. H.3 wasn't looking at the [act that the people were èmploy~d by the city that were involved in this. H2 was looking at the facts of the individû.als iu\'ol ved and 'tvhcther or IWi..: tlley cûnstL:uteJ a r:rirae, so . . . Special City C, oil Hi' es 27 December Iji_ Pasc EighLe.en Gary: hell, 11m not too familiar ý/i;:.h the law so I'~ very safe to say too milch abo~t it but I'm not talking as a person who is involved with the fire department but also Iln talking as a citizen. lId like to know that -- in other worJs, it is possible for anybody to do this -- to go on out and do it <:nj there's nothing wrong with it 'cause accordi ng to the County Attorney no la\.J was broken. Bill: Criminal violations, no, there are no criminal violations, accorùing to th2 County Attorn~y. So if you went out and did this type of thing according to his interpretation, there \.¡ould be no criP.lcs and nothing could be done. Gary: I see. Ken: Isnl t that ænazing7 Gary: Doesn't that -- that's \·¡hat I was going to say. Doesn't -- isn't that sort of amazing -- to start a £ir~ wb.~ther it is a camper fire for girl scouts or whatever it is,. illegally, supposedly,. if there is a law,. a perso~ could go out and start a fire and possibly and there's always that reasonable amount of doubt that somebody could have gotten hurt and s~e damage could have been done and possibly, maybe while we vJ~re on that call and Anoka was on that call, which mind you t"vo fire departI:lents, this city is protected by Anoka fire Department and the Andover fire Department, both fire departments were out on call. .hat if -- and 1'm saying this as a generality, not as a legality -- 1'm sorry, I've finished talking with you, I'n addressing myself to th~ council right now, what if, gentlemen, ladies, if while Anoka was up here, while we were up here, thank God Bob was around, while -- somebody's building got burned d",;n and somebody was in really desparate need of these fire departments, both on a ridiculous call, what would happen? Who would be liable? This city would De liable because our staff -- city staff took it upon itself to make thems~lves testors or I don't know what you'd call the~, people who are illegally supposedly to test our [ire department and Anoka's, what would happen really? Think about it. I personally -- if my house was on fire and you people did this and this fire department was out and Anoka1s fire department was out, by God lid slap a suit on this city that would make your head spin. 11m just talking about it -- what would possibly have happened? We're hiring -- I'm paying my taxes, you are paying your taxes, they're -- these people are r~sponsible, they are public servants a~d they should not act as such as public servants. Hayor: Could lJe get back to the questions? Gary: I just wanted to express my opinion. I was just hearing a lot of stuff around here and it's really -- Ken: To the att~rney b~fore he leaves. You knO\v, the city docs incur son:c expenses on a situatio~ like this. Those are non-recoverable and if what the man is correct that som~one can go out and start a fire to test the city and t~~re's no criminal law invo1veJ? Bill: No, at chis point there is no criclnal law involveù as long as t~lC fire is 'Jeínß set. H this is a continuing violation, yuu know, I am sure we could seck civil áction -- injunctio~ oi same nature in order to stop it from continuing bu: as .Ear as a c¡-irainal violation, at this point the County Attorney was unable to £ ind Z:lY 1.:1\v that \v.s.s violated, from a criminal £tandpoint, yeah. Special City C oil Hi .os 2ì D-::cêmber 19i... l)age ¡~in<2teen Teù: Ah, were you indicating that there could be 50m2 misdemeanor or is -- Dill: ~·o, I t.hink tn.1t h.3 cxaroinL"'>d all possible crimes, w:~eth'2.r feloni2s, gross misdeffi2ano=s, misJeweanors or petty misdcm2aaors. Haior: ¡hank YOù Bill Lor coming. 11m sorry ~o i~terrupt yo~. \fie: Okay, ba~k Lo qU2s~ion~ iu~ K~y. ¥o<J. a¡~d o::hc.r liLmOC1."S of th2 city s-:.:..:.~£ stat¿d yuu excL...:ùed ßo;; M-.....skmJitz [rom. all ci.iscussiu:l in trre. planail1g. Is ti1at tlue that ~e had no pre-:..:uO\vledge of the fire? Kay: Lik~ n.ae Ellen said b2i'o..:e, \oJÌlen \.Je ta lked aLout this, BOD might not ha\e úeen thcr~ aud it did not tal:::e twù weeks, three w~eks, wha tev'cr you want to say, to pIau it. \J¿ tal~<2d about it Q':er Q"J.C lu~ch period a~d Bob r.1Ï£i.lt na\e not been t~¡erè at that ::im~. Vie: ß~t as Ear as you know, pre'Jious to the [ire Dob had no knowledge of it. Ray: Bob kne\J llothi.llg aDDut it u;:¡til tha t morning wi.len \ve went O\..lt in tlw. truck. Vic: O::::ay. ~Thy then did you order him as a subordinate to accumpany you in an unauthorized or unufficial activity that would campromis¿ this in.:lividual? Through- out tlie discussions here it is ind ica ted that the reason that Bob was no~ included in the discussions or have any knowle¿gç of what was going on was the. fact tha t he was on the fire d~partm~nt and he "loulJ tell 50mèone. So I assume that ev~ryo~c felt that th<2.Y \lûuldn It tell him for fear that he vlould Lell someone p.lse so he was excluded ¡rom this. I aI!l just wondering \vhy then he ",as required to go out aai help you set the fire knm.¡ing that thi s would put him in a compromising position? H..ay: lbinly because we took all precautions. Uh2.n I went OLlt there 1;~e hûd \later jugs, we had the fire extinguisher and I had a second hand along to help in case it got Oilt of haad, ",¡Üch i.t did not. Vie: Okay. Ilow much of your time to you estimate as a senior p;lblic works employee ~,.¡~s involved in this drill? The planning, organizing and executing? Ray: I would say probably durin3 my lunch hour which is my own tim¿. Vie talked about it, and probably about a half an hour maybe when we went out there, 20 when we lit it. Vic: This includes gcttiag the hay and that type of thing? That is for the drill, bringing the water -- half an hour? Ray: Half an hour,yes. Vie: O~ay, nQ\J picking up the hay, getting and putting the water in the truck and going out and setting the fire and monitoring the arrival times was tha~ on the (turn over taFe) . . . the aùdress uas in error by about four blocks. Can you give us any kind of reason £o~ why that error in address? Ray: I sa~d a 170th -- if I remember right, a 173rd to a 174th, Some place in that general area. And there is not that many houses along there and that much space that you could not see along there. There is not an exact address in that area, and you can go anå check that out. ~peCial. City (; oil Hj 'es 27 D~cember 19i_ Pag8 T\venty Vic: We weren't looking for a hcuse . . . Ray: There's no mail boxes with an address. Vie: Was that aoout a 170th, or 1ì4th, is that what you're saying? ;Job: I don't ~ecall at what the address came in at. Vic: l~ve you given any thought to the possibility and this is somothing Gary just mentioned, of a real fire occurring during the beginning of -- tIlis was during the beginning of the brush fire season, and having Anåover's only sources of fire protection, both Anoka and Andover Volunteer Fire Department, cOcimitted to this unauthorized fire drill? Ray: No I did not. Vie: That's the last one I have right now. The rest of them that I have are for Pat Lindquist. Pat, Ray told ~ob that he was acting on your authority when he set the [ire. Do you feel that this is true? Pat: No, not authority as such. And as Ray pointed out, knowledge, but there was no question of what LIo you think of this, is this proper, in fact I was arounù during -~ I'd say very very little of the general discussion when this was all pla.lned. So it ~yas not an authority thing, I think it's a good idea guys, go do it. Nùthing of that. I knew about it, and thatls about all I could say. I did not say donlt do it but I ùidn't say do it either. Vic: Okay, you just made tile statement that you were around very little \'Jllile this -- th~se discussions were taking place. NoVJ Ray just said that i:::' took place during QIle half hour lunch pcrioJ. Do you feel that discussions went on past ~his time among staÎ':? Pat: No, it was no:::' discussed at all during a lunch period wllen I \'Jas there. I "Jas gUDß the day it ~yas first brou[;ht up. I was told about it the next morning, ycûh. So the lunch tour that it was planned I wasn I there. Vic: O~~_ay . Now sOffi02.thing that came uut of the tes¡:imany was the fact that someO~le, I think it was 'ay, assu.raed that we had pcrmissioû. to burn the building tilat t s on this property and did yù~ blOH that this W;J.S :his particular pi~ce of proper~y t~al th~ fire ~..,ai::i galni; to b¿ S..;L ':n'{ H~d you hearJ tilat discussio~ prcviJ~sly? Pal:: You had I,,~:ltion2d it. -1.'1;,a:": yùu -- ¥Jlc: ~~0 , llù. .uk ¡.LlC; drill itself, "¡¡Ie:! it was planned, ~las it plal.~n¿d for this piece of p~o?er~y? Did you k:.l0W ahead o¡ :"Üla that it \vas fùr t¡laL pi..::cc or pl'operty? Pdt: Y;2s I JiJ. Vie: O~ay. NJW my qucs:::'iun is, \¡hy \ias it aSSlilll2J. ~ilaL a verÌJal agr¿ement ~'¡as su'=.lieiL:nt to go on pr.Lva~e prop~rty to se~ .a. fire [U~ training \>.'llcn in t:i(~ past we have ah-¡ays required a ~yritt~n con~rac::'l Pat: Prior ~o that we had not requireù a written contract ~ecaus~ Caswell's contract -- in fact the contract was not evea ùrawn up if I r2IDcmber correctly when Cdsw~llfs prop~rty on Ro~nd Lak2 Blvd. -- that C2rrE~ after that. Special Ci~y C ';1...l MJ ·es 2ì U'.:J':CITlJ2r lT/v Page T\',:2:nty-O[l.Q Vic: ~~.¿ i.Ji..Irn~¿ that August 5th -- Pat: 1 tÌon't rèmember the dat.e. í/i¡; : That \<tas prior ~o the .Llr¿ drill ani lJe had a written agree:men:: prior to August ~o boO on that pr:operty anJ to use that building as a training büilding. Pat: IJell I gü¿'ss another thing that could be brough~ up on that and it's -- r¿rr..embering a~ain \Jhat happ\2.ncd. 1'1œre was a fire in that sa~e building probably a month prior to tha t and very little concern was s llOWl1 by the departm:'nt, by anyone about it. 12 you -- you know what I'm talking about, when Dave and Kay -- out \·;,ncn tha t one caught on fire and no one seem¿d to care and I think it was at time that it was ncntioned that there h~d been permission, verbal permission, and you asked me for SOID2thing, I think for his address Gzain -- for the gentleman that owneJ it. Vie: I guess that concern that I have is the fact that you do -- we use written contracts previously and the fac~ that you know, you hadn't said anything to Ray or anyone -- hey you guys, you've got to have a written contract to go on the property -- Pat: Well that was physically setting a house on fire. I guess -- Vie, the best I can remem1,)er, there was no comparison. I mean, this \vasn I t a big house being set on fire. It was my understanding that a b~le of hay which was going to do nothing but smoke \'laS going to be set on fire in a tin building on a dirt floor which I could not compare to a house, a structure, one story, tvlO story, wha tever it would be with furnishings, vJnatever was in it when it was set on fire. Vie: I don't knmv if it has so much to do vJith the burning but the fact tha t 'i.ve as either a city or as a rire department went on private property, you knoll. I could not tell these g'lYS to go onto somebody's property and do anything, you know, as an official department of the city and I guess I don't understand why the city staff as an official representative of the city could assume that they could go on private property and do what they want without a written agreement and that's why we have always required a written contract to do that. Pat: Vic, I can I t anSvle r that nO'i.V. I don't think it was discussed. It "Jas something -- like I say th..lt 'i.'laSn' t thought of. There had been a fire ::hQre two weeks before. You <\lere told about it. There vJ<1S very little concern expressed as far as the fire -- a danger, what could happen and no one just even -- didn't even think of that, as far as going on the private prope rty. Because no one intended to do any damage and I guess tha t' s -- had any da~ag~ been intended, then yeah, there wo"ld have been plenty . . . Vic: I guess the reasoning behind setting the fire still escapes me, I don't see Hhy it v,;'3S even decided to se t it, rath2r than just make a call. Okay. You arrived -- according to your tG.sti.mo~y now, you arriv~d at the city hall in tim~ to stop the -- which you 'i.v~re responsible for supervising and calling in the [ire alarm but did not. Do yoa still consider yourself ¿s a non-participatory as you indicated in your Scpt2mae:- 29th memo? l'at: You're: talking abouL the day o[ the fire? - Special City C :il Mj es 27 D(~c.e¡:Óer 19ìv Page T\'cnty-T\'¡o Vie: r~~e délY oZ t:le fire you said you arrived bact\. in tirn2 to hear the call cOI:Üng ia on the ra":::"o, J.:igrÜ:? B:..lt yet.: at that timB \vhen you ~n~\v what was taking place then, you didn':::: s::op it. Pat: NJ. I said pilysically participating. I knew about it. I did not stop it. l was ve~y clear i~ my letter -- Vie: It \-vas gaing o~1. rigilt that mom8nt. Pat: Ri5h::. Vie: Okay. Nùw Lhi~ was something -- I gU3sS it was Ted had mênt iCì.1ed be_~ol'e 2nd. I still don'l: unjerst,.nå ho'''' this happèned. Okay, \'ihy did YO;.1 allow this tldng to eontinae ùe~plte the .cact tha:': the Nayar saiù ~Í1a:: hQ would uo~ auLhJ~ize this .lite ~rill b~cause o.z t~l¿ q:..l¿stioa vi L:u~ city's l:a1.Jilit)'? PaL: 13..lCaUS2 I th.:...n.·: liaJility ~,.'as 10;j~(cci a;: Ll Q. Ji["::er~nt ¡Üall~~':. 'ýic: v~..;ll ::h~ Ïact that tne HâYu~: -- that nouody had autllO.i.-iz<.2d it I guess is ano::.:h~r i.5SGC ::00. You knm,.¡, i.1e said ~1~ -¡.-oulJn't authoriz..; i~ anJ i :;:'llOW the council "'asn':: cua::act:ed, they didnf::; aut~.ù-=ize it. P.:¡t: No. Vie: Ail";' yuu ~UU\v, t.llc fact that -::h~ onè persoil. t:i.at was asl-"eJ s.:l-~d he would not a'.lthorizè ic ...- as to 't';h~r it still \-¡as .s.lloweè. to tal~G. plac2? .P.:J.t: Like I say Vie, I think as nt,,:<J.t" as I Cán rer:¡e¡;¡;;er that liability wasnl t look~ci at in tile sam~ manner. Ti.te people sitting there are elected officials. They arc under a different type ,)£ liability tÌlcn \.¡c al"E:~ as appointeJ staff members ~nd I think -- just rcm2mb~ring back, I knm¡ my own thoughts, th<..:.t tha~ was tÌ1e £e~ling I il.:ìd as .car as liability. That i[ this didn't llorkt our -- my intEntion, I ca~ It. spea:~ ¡O.i.' th..:: others, my tho'J.gh:: on it, if the department respoaJed very poorly, I \..lOulù be writing a letter to the council and tell them and ::hey 't",o:J.lJ have to in turn aåJr~ss the ùepa1:'tment and say this happei¡eJt one response and it dido't llork, and if t:1CY responJeà goodt I intenJed to do exactly \-inat I ùiJ ùo. Aad that ",ay if anybody had any questions, instead 01 us saying I doni t kaowt I doni t kaO\v -- anJ like Rae Ellen saiJ, being called n8DeSt ve'rc spending all this money, how come this àoesn't happen, we can say, which the next day I "las able to say, if somebody called me and I could tell them ,\-,'C knovl first hand this is ,.¡hat they did. They Deat Anoka by ú uinutes. I didn't hear any more b~llyaching from that parson. Not ó Oít. H(~ had first hand information. It 'tolasn't a bunch of -- well, let 'em get out and try, wait a year from now. tie kncí-l right then, everybody k:i.1e\'l. I~ was in ÌJlack ar.d white ,"lhat the response vIas and I gU8SS I felt good about tÌlat. I felt I didn I t have to buffalo these people, I could tell them the truth. It was there, it had been pro'\'en. Vie: 00 you feel that the risk that you w~re taking in this exercise justified that type of an answer that you hadn't been able to give? Pat: Vie, I guess a thing that \vas m~ntioned and that is, I've worked in t\vO places 't-.'here 'tve did have fire drills. Each time there was a drill there were risks t~ken. One was a five story building. There was a girl \<.'Il0 broke her arm during the drills. ~pec~al ~~~y C :i1 tl¡ es 27 Ver.emh¿r 19iv Pdg~ Twe~ty-Three P3t continued . . . Ihere Here risks being taken in schools where you hdv~ fir~ drills, there 1;oJere risks being tak3n. But cunc~rn by the people:, I'd think that you ý1Quld be -- ju~t as much of a ris~. He're able to alleviate some oE taa:' concern now with some facts. I had asked you prior to that about the responSe time. w~ could not get a satisfactory answer and if I remember correctly, I did call Central Communications. I also asked Lenny and he said they did not know ~hen ~ne trucks arrived at a fire. They knew what tim2 the call came in, but didn't know when somebody got to a fire. well that's what I Has told. Vie: Thatls not true. (Both parti~s sp¿aking at once; unintelligible.) Mayor: Well I think thè confusion that exists here on this one is Anoka doesn't Cüm2 through Central. You can't -- Vie: They weren1t asking for Anoka's time, they were looking at our time. }wyor: No, but in a case with L2nny -- I think this is where part of the confusion is h¿re on this one, is that, you know, the Sheriff's Departm~nt are used to Anoka anJ Ano't<a's times arc not trackablc through Central. I think this is wher,~ -- this has come up once uefore and I think this is where the problem is, with th2m. Vic: You're saying that L'2nny was using the l:..nok3 -- to justify the fact that he said that C2ntral was not recording - - H.:lyor: Nù, no. All 11m saying is L2nny is used to workin~ 1;.¡itb Anoka and h~ h.;1s no l.'lay or tracking Anoka through Central. I think -- this is t1;.¡icc t~lis has come up now and I think tì.LLs is uhere maybe this confusion in the thing is coming at. 11m oaly guessing, but wheu W8 say and -- I listed to thè tape Vie, you seen the problem that you haJ with tile Anoka -- you know, when they have to go to the other phon~ sys::em and 1;'¡Ol-k i-:: ti-:.rou2;h. Pat: On'3 o::her comment that probably is r~lati!1g pretty much tu the sam~ tning is that at th2 timè this was ¿one Ando~~-er 1;".15 not fighting house fires and said tl'8Y 1;Jere aot able to £ig~lt I,ouse fires, therefore, som20üe' s Î.WIT1è ~ike G..lry men::ioned woulJ not be pat in jo.opardy. It Y,'as my uaderstandin:; from i1earing it a:': a Council Ifleet.L;.g ::ilat AnJover wùulJ bil responding to g~'a;js fires, that Aa.)~a woul¿ n..Jt. H_d ~,'e i~i"-,uwn Ano~i1 wJ;.Jl....i, i1ot:ni~~g li~~ t:-..at ever i,',i0Ui.": Ìla\.ë :lappenea d': ...~~a:: L':U::'~. 'J.'ha... it;; w:.y ~:.. -;,a.:; ¿oû.",: .:¡'.: :"'::'J.'.: tiIlL..!, su cha: AÜ0Ka, if there v..'~:e ü Jal:geroas Ci:::.-\..!, a ¡1U";S~ ¡~J.:~, a Dad Eire, t~l.cy cùu.ì.~ J..:espoüd to it. V::c: Y0'-l \,i~l"...:. COpiëd ort the l::emo 1;~heri..! w'.; spëci.'::-icd whi2n ~:ed s::al':':..L.~.g l'e::;punding -- .Pd::: 1;.), I ::a-.'2 no copy. I hav¿ gun¿ th;,:ùJf¡lL c~;el-y file Ilye go:: a:ì.d i ~lavè no copy DE tÌ-ìat. It V.'as ailn0,...Inced at the CÙlJClcil o.;eting and that's wi12.:-e I hearj it -- "",here you a'-:n0UnC-2J ::0 th2 Council tha t AnJo\'er \,¡dS responling to ÌJrush ¡ires anJ as far as -... Jl...!rry also ask<..~J .Jill aDout citiz~ns starting fires and \.,;11a::': Î.iappe:1S and ii t:;.cy get by with it. W2 have gotten fire bill after fire Lill ~h,~rè citizens hav~ started ¡ires, a camp fir,), 'w'Ì1atevcr, i::ls 80tten out 0f hand, the DepartTilent has had to come out. Those 'Were d0a~ in ar~as, nol a m¿;tal quonset... ilut. They v1~re people's oack yarJs, whate-;,'cr, anJ they were 1l2v-=r -- Vie: But tì:l~Y were ('v'ie, N.:..;.yor a:1d 1"'a:: sp~a~in[; all at once; unintelligiúlç.) Pat: No they ¥l~rc nut, Lh.2Y got away fro:J. Lh.;m. T~ley dId bet 3\..;ay from them, thê .JpêCj.dJ. t",;:;"I:.j! l".; ,U H: <os 27 D2Cel:1~er 19,,, Page TWènty-four Pdt con::ii:lu~d . . . D2parlrn2nt -- no, you w~r2 rü[errin£ ~u ~he Dc?arLm2nt, ii I ~n~erstool yo~ cDrrectly, o[ them cDming out on somcti.IÍng likè th~t when a real fi¡:z, a bad firè cOl11d be occur-.:ing, a.:lJ th2Y h.1v\:! COr:J.C a-It on many. \{he. ther or not there's been bad fires, \\!c JO:1't kno't". And I don't think th2 staff had any thrJi..1ght, any intent.ion, o[ embarrassing the Fir:c Department, of making fun 0-= the ¡ire àepartMent, tha t \"a5 the last thing we wanteà, and I know, I for "'yself, fought probably the hardcst of anybody hl2re to g2t a Fire U~pgrtm2nt, back three years ago.. I feel we need one a..d I £~el \,¡e need a good one and I guess I ieel '-10\\1 -- th~ D<..:partmènt, what happe~ed -- e';eryboJy's so concerned about who v,'dS wrong, \o,ho did this, punis~~ent and so forth -- I ~üpe this has also prOVèll to the Department you did a good job, you've bot same thing in black and white to tell everybody -- that you knm,¡ nothing about this. Nobody knew about it, not one of your guys -- when they responded no one ~new \'V'hêrQ they were going, what they \,¡~re getting into, and they responded beautifully. They conducted thEmselves like professionals, you've Eot something in black and white to prove it. Anl that should be very important, more so than who IS gonaa get punished or who was \H'cng. Vie: Well I don't guess I heed anything in black and white, you know, to prove that. I know that the guys ha,\'e respoaded, had a risk that was u:1nccessary, I know that in talking to other fire departments -- people who work for oth2r cities, that when they hear auout this, we get laughed out of the room. It's never been done before and I guess it just amazes me that it -- that happened. I guess it's kind -- the whole situation -- our very first fire the eity staff lit. That's the history we've got to fall back on ánd I guess it hurts me to have that situation with our fire department. Mayor: Okay. Could we get back to the questions so we'll have ample time to allow for connnents. Vic: Okay. When Delores asked you to make the call to Central Communications, why did you decline? Pat: I did say no and I declined -- and I'll tell you the same as I told Jerry Dhennin, I don't know why, other than the fact, I guess, the only thing I can think of, I did think it was some~hat sneaky. But I certainly did not think it was a wrong thing to do or that it was a bad thing. I just -- sneaky is the best way I can explain it and I spend many hours asking myself the same thing. 'lie: Okay. I guess most of the other questions (unintelligible) and we've already talked about the issue of the County Attorney quoting the particular law that was repealed in 1976. I guess most of the other comments have been covered -- Mayor: Thank you, Vie. Bob. Bob: Most of my questions have been covered too, but there's just a couple of things I'd like to clear up with Pat first. Since it would be approximately a year until the Department would be in full service, why -- your memo mentioned tremendous concern and fear. I could understand some concern and wanting to be prepared, but what is this tremendous conCern and fear about something that probably won't happen for another year yet? Pat: I can't speak for the people that called me. As far as -- brush fires, that would not be a year; homes, yes, and there are many of our citizens -- let's put it ~peclaJ. (;lty (; ~ 11 M "es 27 Deccmb~r 19i_ Page Twenty-Five Pat continued . . . this way, their livelihood depends on their fields, on their farms, and those are the kind of fires that you would be fighting. Bob: Okay, on September 8th, the Chief sent a carbon copy memo to the City Council and said the Andover Fire Departme~t will begin brush fire responses on Saturday, September lóth. The Anoka Fire Department will also be responding with us until such time as we feel confident that all the problems have been worked out of our response -- all the problems have been worked out of our responses. Did you receive it -- you n~ver received that one? Pat: That's the one I had said I looked for and I do not have in my file. Bob: On Septembe~ 14th I sent a memo to the City Council stating that the A~oka and Andover Volunteer Fi~e DepartC1ent would begin re:spondinz with t~le Anoka Fi::-e Departme~t to all brush and vehicl., iires in our City. You didn I t receive tì,at one either? Pat: I probably have that; I do~'t recall reeding it. B",b: Well, that was a week before this fire drill. It's -- Pat: I know I have all your memos that you have sent to the council that -- Bob: The purpose of it -- the purpose of it was so that Anoka would cover us in casa we were unable to for some reason. We didu't know what our response times were. We don't knew what they are until there is a [ire call and we respond to the call and measure 'em. We don't do it just for the fun of it, it's too dangerous. Okay, what's next. Tne staff was concerned -- if they were the only ones to respond to a fire. Now I do believe you mentioned that in your memO of September 29th. Pat: Yes. Bob: I¡ouldn't it be bette~ to have the staff there than nobody? Pat: Yes, it would be better to have -- Bob: ihis whole reference to the staffls concern, two of the staff members were asked when they -- whey they were hired if they would consider joining the Fire Department, I think that's the way the questions were worded. Pat: It would be better than no,ody, Bob, but by the same token, you guys have had a year, year and a half training, these guys have had none and I think that's why they were concerned. You have volunteered, this is the thing you want to do. I shouldn't be speaking for them, I mean I'm just -- this is from what I've heard. They did not volunteer, that's not their -- to put it bluntly, their bag, to go out and be volunteer fire department people. Bob: Okay. You made a reference to a petition in your first memo. Was that -- did you ever see that or -- Pat: No, it was never brought in. It was referred to but it was never brought in. Bob: -- signatures -- so we don't have any signatures? ùpeC.LaJ. 'Y1.1:Y V -:LL 1'1] -es 21 December 19i_ Page l',¡enty-S ix Pat: No I do not. Bob: Okay. And now this thing from, what's his name, Mr. Dhennin on his investiga- tion, you heard about this talk about a fire two weeks before -- I guess most of this has been covered -- two weeks before the actual fire was set and you made no effort to stop it. Pat: It was mentioned one day and it wasn't mentioned again, Bob, I guess I had assumed during that interim that it had been forgotten, that it wasn't going to be done. Bob: Okay, you also mentioned that, and 11m sorrYt I'm back to this memo again -- the concern w~s shared by every city staff member and after looking over Mr. Dhennin's reportt it -- there appears -- two to possibly four staff members were concerned. Pat: All the staff members were concerned and talked about it with th~ exception -- n3, I won't even say that. All the staff members would have expressed concern at one time or another. Bob: I know Mrs. Peach didn't express any concern -- Pat: Oh, 11m sorry, I forget Marcy. No, she certainly did not. Bob: Miss Eveland claims that she never did know -- maybe she can respond to that more properly. Pat: Well it would depend on how she meant -- how she interpreted what he was asking. Bob: I guess she said she was just there, she didn't express any. Okay, of these two to four people who have expressed in this memo concern, two of them were virtually new -- where they had worked from two to three weeks to two to three months experience with the city, and don't you feel it would have been your obligation as city administrator to give them a little guidance in this area? Pat: Bob, I had trouble doing that. There have been many things that I have asked for written docum~ntation from the Fire Department to which I could respon1 to somebody, to ~hich I could tell them, that r have not been given. In fact, this v~ry thing, this response time, r did ask Vic for an answer and he said it had never been tested. Bob: That was correct, it hadn't. Okay. Wh8n you -- what time did you return from th~ -- according to Delore's statement, Ray had called on the radio and said he was about to set the fire or som~thing to that effect before the fire was started. 'W'ere you in the office at that time? Pa t: r don't recall him saying he was about to -- I remember him calling in. Bob: What was the first stat3ment you remember hearing when you ~ere at the city hall ? Pat: I've got. it going, call the Fire Dcpartm8nt, something about he's got -- I've got the £ire going, call the Fire Department. Special City C oil ¡.¡; es 27 D'2ccnìb-~r 19i v rage Twenty-Se\:efi Bob: AnJ y~u UBver co,sidcred getting on the radio and telling him to put the £ire out? Fat: No I did not. 30b: "hat equipment and Den responded to the fire? Fat: Almost immediately -- I doult have the times in front of m~ so I Jontt rCr.Ie.noer -- Bob: Yeah, "Ylt wÌlL),::;' 1'm trying to establisÎ1 is I Jonlc think you know who respoaJed to th~ [ire, do you? D0 you know wLich fire .i~îghters ~l¿re there? Pdt: Well I understand DO:) was thert..! first, respoaJeJ in very guoJ tim~. I don't knuw [He two that Were after -- tÌ1ey came later. BOD: Yo;.] stated that tlnougLl equipm..~n:': arr i ved Lo ta~e ca ~'C of any [ire that w0uld happen in this city, or close to tllat effect. I don't k~ow how you coulJ e"\'a lua te that, I don't think you havt any Eire eÄperience. PoSt: No, I certainly Jo not. Boò: Do you tlÜnK four men coulJ £ igllL any ~ire in the city? 1--a::: \.Jith Ano~a, \·¡ith c-~'erything -- n0W our DepartI>leat, \¡hat they had, they rE:.spcnJcJ. lie:] that was not. incluJing our city crew. 'l'~..e last list ¿¡nr] I've gotten , r- : list since, t:ì.C¡·";' W2.re t\¡O pèoplc l~sL¿d as daytiæ2 [in~ ':ig::.ters and i.¡ an upua....e-..J. ~~I>2 ci~y stat:: W¿Il~ ua, tha~ wouL': IìK:'r..¿ ..L 1 -\,~. iiJ\" t1.c ci.¡;'j sta':£ v.as n~· i:-.c ludecl u_ S,) if :.:hey v/2.re in it t:~Ll;': ì.Juû.l.l oc :ll.¡:'~ pcùpl.~. A.i.J i '-.¿ \,a~c¡.eC: a hoûs¿ D;'¡l"a U_l A;:.":u\e.i.: B~h.Il02varù au.J -::i.ler~ ~kl'e ";11y six Anùka p~opl~ ~Hel"~. Bob: And :.11<.2Y lüs~ '::.:.2 hO;J.se '¡ Fat: Y~u \;¡¿t. il.)J: tldYÍJ2. six p~oplc weren't 2.Iì.ough. Pat: W211 tLlat was::.l;: t:1e ca se ol just six p20pl...,;. T:u:~r~ \,¡as a rèSpOì.lSe ~ . -- a '-.L:r12 question ùa it. 13J0: O:~éì.y. I ~hould pain:: out, anJ I JUi1lt knO\·] if itls b~en n~ntion..;d before, that Anokals response ::L'""J.c \~as six or SeVè:l IJ.inut~s ú£te~ Andovçr's and the reason 1.¡3S -- tÌ1¿ long Jclay \~'as because. ~h~y ~-J¿¡:e told to shut ~'" th~ir e;:¡crg~ncy lights O.i...J. aaJ drive dt normal speeds. In fa.ct, th2 tan~er 't.¡as recalled as soon as they rea lizè 1 it was a àrill. (unintèllisible.) I don't like tò sl:?:e them ùiscreditcJ ¡or our city's -- not that ~hat was intcw~ed . !!Jw LÌù you ["el that this ac::'ion Las û¡£ccted the \·oluì.1.::'2.er fiì:"e ":cpa:-tmcat. £! Pat: i\.eally, I caal t say, I don't knovl. I hope it makes th~m better £irecea. live seen uday of th~m operating, Ilye talked ::'0 maay o¡ -::h(..:!TI., nût op~ ra t Lng in a rl2al fir2 b~t during drills. I l1A.ve the U:':r.1ùSt rcsp~ct for them. I think they're trying, ::heylrc learnin8. It's <l jù'o I sure in ::.11e d~vil wouldn't want. ;:,rl~C~al. Cl\:Y C oil 1'1' ':es 2ì D2cenJer 19/_ Pabe Tiì2nty-Eigh~ BOD: Ho\v do you [èel this activity has affected our relationship \.lith the City of Anoka, esp~cially th~ firc 02partm~nt? It's a Cùilcern of min¿ because we will be working with th2:n [or y.oars to comè on a mutual aid. Pat: ¡,',ll, I ~u~ss my feeling would be, it should have no effect on it. Zob: It sècIT.cd to rae riÉ,ht after the thiuB we haè a n~~bcr of i~rate statements made by Anolea fighters -- hear that it ..~ould affect th.3ir respons¿. Pat: ,Ie were not contacted at all by the City of Anoka. The only contact I h2d was through the City Manag~r, it was a short while after that and he expressed no feelings such as that whatsoe~er. Bob: Okay, as City ~\dministrator, ~hat would you recommend the Council do to prevent further occurrences and to avoid -- and to assure our volunteers of the City Fire D'2partment that this won't happeil again. Pat: Hell, I guass I co~ld just simply repeat what Don Jacobson said. I feel it's ben an experience that -- I know tIle stafE has leac;:-¡ed frŒD -- we will be more vocal i.ë there is a question. IE He h.:t.....e problems we \.Jill be much more vocal than we were before. I know I will be, I shouldn't speak for the rest of them; I will be. If so~cthing's bugging IDe, boy I'm going to let you know about it. If I get those questions and sor.te'0ody starts cussing ma out, you're going to h2ar abO'.lt it. Instead of hoping we can solve thi-ags ourselves -- W03 have tricd with the Council -- I think all of us. If every complaint that came into the City were turned over to the Council, they would be meeting every single night of the week. W~ have to resolve some of those complaints ourselves. And when there gets to be too many of one kind, then it has to come to the Council. But this one -- in fact the day after the October 4th meeting I did get a call from a lady in Green Acres. There was 8. lady who was at this meeting at city hall, she was in my office. I went like this -- motioning to her to pick up the phone so she could hear what was being said and then our fire Department would know that this is the kind of calls we were getting. She thought I was chasing her out of my office and didn't pick up the phone. And then I told the lady just a minute and then she hung up. And I did tell her to call Vie. I said, will you please call the Fire Chief, tell him this. She was screaming about tax~s, the bond issue, about the good for nothing fire department, they don't know what they're doing. I don't know who she was or if she knows anybody and I told her to call Vic and he could give her more facts on it. That is the instructions every- one has in the office, do not take a complaint. I have had to take some mainly questions, not complaints, from insurance agents and there were -- like I told you, from some farm group, Farmers Insurance Group I believe it was, and he said they did not intend to change their policy and when he told me what the insurance rates would be and I told -- in fact, I did tell him to call Vic because he wanted to know where the fire department -- he. saw a copy of the brochure that went out with the bond issue and he wanted to know where they got such erroneous information, and I told him please contact the fire department, because I don't know where the information came from. Bob: Okay, starting in May I started sending memos to the Council, oncz a month or so, probably half a dozen of them, total of five or six, and every single one of those without exception, the last sentence in them was to refer all and any questions to myself or the chief and until the fire drill we received virtually none. I received none, I don't know if Vic received any at all. Special City C oil Hi es 27 December 19'tu Page Twenty-tline Pat: Bob, we did do this, we tried to tell -- Bob: We receive some now, especially the Chief receives calls occasionally. I've received one or two. Pat: But -- well We're getting a lot more than we got before, too, but as far as the calls, we told them to call -- when we told them to call, the ge:1eral response usually -- I can't say in every case, I don't want to talk to him. And we say, we can't give yoa the information, if you want the information, yo~'ve got to call them, I don't want to talk to them. You can't force people. When we hang up the phone, that's it. Bob: Okay, th.lr:ks Pat. Mr. Sowada. Do you feel that part of your jeb oblication cor.cerns the fire dep&rtrnent? Ray: ~io, I Gon't think so, J30ð: Do yeu ha·¡E any fire figI\ting experience? Ray: About the only thing I've did, I' -Ie assisted Columbia Heights Fire Department when they've reeded assistance when they've called the whol~ city crew to help, w:ten they neeðed help. Bob: Okay. Do you actually believe that they were trying -- you were being forced to join the fire departm3~t? Ray: Bas ica lly, that's somewhat what got back to me. Bob: Okay. Ted: Can I ask a question here. Ray, I'm wondering how that got back to you b3cause -- Dave Almgren, you were at that personnel committee Deeting where that was discussed, you were at the whole meeting. Did you get the impression too that we were trying to -- that there was som~ move to require the employees to join t:,e Fire Department? Dave: We were questioned if we would join, that's all. There was no mention of force or anything like that. Ted: But did you have the impression that we were going to be requesting you to join the fire department? Dave: No. Ted: Ok~y. Bob: Okay. My concern is your lack of concern for private property rights. You just assumed you had permission to enter a building and start a fire. Ray: I was told that Vic had the right to burn the old shack that's on that premises. Bob: Is there any reason why you didn't call Vic and ask him if he had that right? - Ray: I was told by Bob Muskowitz that -- that there was communications with Vic and the owner of that property. Special City C oil Mj es 27 Decp.mber 19iu Page Thirty Bob: 11m a little mixed up then. Did you assume that you had the Mayor's okay or did you not assume that? To do this? Ray: I just heard that he did not go along with the plan, that's -- Bob: You did not assume that you had the Mayor's okay? Ray: No. Bob: Okay. Ah, you -- did you -- you reported the call and I think the minutes of that meeting of the tape said (unintelligible) the fire was called in at l70th and Verdin and that was verified, you repeated it again. And so you called in the fire approximately 4 blocks from where it was -- l74th -- that's close to a half a mile away. Is there any reason for that discrepancy or was it just inaccuracy? Ray: There is no addresses in that general area, you can check that out. Bob: Well half a mile is -- you can come closer than that just with an odometer, I think. Unidentified speaker: There was one house straight to the south that has an address on the box -- it's one hundred seventy-one (171). Ray: I personally didn't even look at that address. I said there was an old building, if I remember, I think I said something like that -- Delores: I called the fire in and maybe I said it wrong, I don't know. Bob: Okay, well all we have is what you said, Delores, We don't know -- that wasn't on the tape. Did you expect that anyone would find out that you set the fire? Ray: I had an idea that everybody would find out, yes. Bob: Yet that evening you denied setting it to the chief. Ray: Like I told Vic, I says we wanted to know the times -- the response times. Bob: How did you feel that would affect the response time by admitting you started the fire? Ray: Well, everything was talked about that the response time was the main thing and if I sit there and say we started the fire, Vic would -- he would yell more than what he did over the phone, and talk -- Bob: How would yelling affect the response time? The response times were reported some place, you knew that even if they weren't tabulated. Ray: Right, But to my basic knowledge I did not know the response time and the next day it was talked about, the response timè. Bob: Okay, so you felt it was important to deceive in order to obtain these respons':~ times. Why did you start a fire with winds of 15 mph? Special City C, ·il ¡·U es 27 December 197" Page Thirty-O'J.e :J.ay: I don't think the winds were quite that strong because -- J"b: The Weather Bureau says they were. a.ay: \,'ho said? Bo~: The w'eather Bureau. Ray: It wasn1t tl1at strong. Besides, where can a fire go inside of a Q~tal building with a dirt floor? Unidentified speaker: They set it on the north side of the building and thB \-dnd \vas from the south. Bob: The wind was out of the south at 15 mph. It's a little high for that sort of thing. I g",'SS that the rest of th" questions that I was going to ask have been covered. Thank you. Mayor: Thank you, Bob. Bob: I think that's it, thank you. Mayor: Rich. For the record, give your name and address, please. Rich: Richard Lindeen, 2439 l38th Avenue and I'~ the Fire Marshal. Ray, you stated that you didn't want to just call in a false alarm because that's against the law. Didn't you think that going out and setting a fire on private property was against the law? Ray: I never -- I never thought of it at the time, it being talked about. Rich: Well I always thought starting a fire was wrong no matter where it was. Whoever answers the phone call heret I'm not too familiar with names here, but how many calls from citizens -- how many irrate calls have you received from citizens? I, 10, 100? Rae Ellen: I have not kept count. I would say after the bond issue, that next day there were at least 20. Some said good and some swore. Rich: Would you say 50% swore at you? Rae Ellen: Yeah. Well now -- well not real all out swear -- Rich: So -- ten negative calls, 10 positive calls about the bond issue? Rae Ellen: Yeah. And then they have them slowing down and they they would rise when their insurance premiums are due and now I expect them -- when tax statements are mailed out -- Rich: Well, I mean prior to this test, it's in that memo about the concerned citizens and I'm trying to figure out how many concerned citizens were calling you up and chewing your butt out on the fire department? - Srecial City C, ,il MI -es 27 December 197v Page Thirty-Two Rae Ellen: Really, I never even thought to keep tabs on it. No\< I am, I am asking for names and numbers. Rich: Well everytirne someone calls me up at work and hollers at me, I remember that, so -- you should have some idea -- Rae Ellen: Day by day? Rich: And before -- Rae Ellen: Some days I have no calls. I had two last week. Rich: Okay. Vic said he was getting a few calls, now. My name was on there on that bond issue and I never received one call. I've gotten one call about the fire department since I've been on and that was somebody that was inquiring about how many fire extinguishers required -- Rae Ellen: I'm sure that was because your name -- I was told to refer all calls to the Fire Chief. Pat: Perhaps Rich, I could respond too. You asked about negative and positive calls. I can honestly say that I have never received a positive call and that's not unusual because when they call city hall, they are not calling to say somebody did a good job. They ar~ calling to raise hell and that's -- you're no different than every -- between the road people, tha police, the dog patrol people, me, anybody -- when they call the city hall, they're calling to bellyache, they're not calling to say hey, somebody did a great job. I think we have gotten two since I've been working for the city -- one said the Council did a good job and I got one call where they said I did a good job and that's in six years and the rest have all been complaining calls so it's not an unusual thing at all, to get lots of those kinds of ca 11 s . Rich: How many people t~e complain actually give their names? Pat: I have yet -- oh, a couple of people, I knew who they were so they didn't give -- didn't have to give their names but most people, when they call to complain, don't say \<ell I'm John Jones and I'm complaining about this. You generally ask and that's on any type of complaint. When they call in, they just say the guy next door is doing this or I'm calling about this. Business places \<ill -- like the insurance people, \<ill give their names and identify themselves. But individuals won't. They'll just call and say \<ell I just called m~ insurance company and he told me such and such. Rich: I would say anyone who doesn't identify himself, whether he is pro or con on something, isn't worth listening to. People who just call up and scream at you, fine, goodbye, and it's nothing to be concerned with. Pat: Well, you try to be nice to the peop Ie because some day you're gonna be facing them in an audience, whether it be at a public hearing or what it is, and welve found out, or at least I have, I've hung up on a couple of people -- they're not going to quit calling, they're gonna keep calling back and calling back. And some day, most of the time those people are upset over something at that particular moment, If they can get it out of their system, they're gonna cool off and then you can talk sense to them, Other people will just call and bellyache and hang up on you, they won't let you say anything. .Jp,-='-'.L.r;1.L. \..I.L.LY \..If -:~.l £'1] ,es 27 December -19í, 2age Thirty-Three Rich: Right, but -- do you think it is truly your concerned citizen that just calls up and screams at you over the telephone? Pat: They are concerned at that particular time. Rich: Call to bellyache and he doesn't know what he's really talking about half the time? Pat: We get a lot like that. I mean, they don't even have to say who they are, we know why they are because it's the same ones who call about everything under the sun. And they have called on the fire department and the bond issue and those we didn't even listen to, because like you say, they'll bellyache about anything. Rich: That's right. That's why I'm trying to find out how many really concerned citizens calls did you have on the fire department before this situation -- before the fire took place? Pat: I would say myseli person~lly -- about 10 probably. That Here -- that I '-¡ould feel were concerned calls. They had no reason to complain or not to be concerned, they were asking questions, they weren't swearing at me, they weren't yelling or swearing at the department, they were asking questions. And they were concerned questions. Rich: Okay. What I'm trying to figure out here is if half the city I guess is calling and saying they were concerned about the fire department is one thing, but if it's just a small handful, I don't see that as justifying any actions that were taken on this day. Pat: Well it wasn't only telephone calls, public contact as well. People coming in instead of getting ah -- it was a subject, I suppose because of the bond issue -- it had a lot to do with it, you're getting into people's pocketbooks and they're naturally going to yell, but people did comment. It Has very heavy at that time. And like I say, I did ask the questions -- that seemed to be the big thing. How fast ére they going to get out here? I live over on 7th Avenue, for instance, or I live on Round Lake Boulevard -- I'm only three miles from Anoka, Anoka can get here in x-number of minutes, how fast can Andover get here? You say, I don't know. Why in the hell don't you know? You're supposed to know that. Haven't they even been tested? No they haven't. Well I'm gonna contract with Anoka to provide my protection. It's the back and forth -- not that they're no damn good, not that sort of a question. It's been oral response or talk -- it's been simply, what am I going to do or I'm going to do, simply a statement. And I don't know why they called to tell us. Rich: But did you not know at the time that when we were called on a fire, Andover Fire Department was called on a fire, that Anoka would also respond? Pat: No 1 did not, not on a brush fire, no I did not. Mayor: Rich, maybe you should try to clarify that thing. At least, myself, and possibly some of the rest of the Council were also confused on that one. And I don't know where it took place, if it wes some comment that was made at a Council meeting or what, if someone would have asked me the same question at that point in time, my answer would have been that on grass fires Andover's reporting alone, and Special City C, ,il ;1; es 27 Ddcember 19/" Page Thirty-Four Mayor continued . . . I don't know where this took place or where this came from but this -- there, this point was confused. I ùon't know how that took place -- Rich: Even tho"gh with the, I believe it was two memoS sent -- as well. Okay, all right, thank you Pa t. Hayor: Yeah, and like I say, I don't know where the confusion came in on that o~e. Rich: I guess, this is kind of in reference to Ray's comment here that he was being forced into joining the fire Jcp8rtment in worki~g with the city, ii the city staff didn't want to join t~e fire departr.ent why is it that the city staff came down auù requested to have access to the fire apparatus and our pump cans to iight brush fires and that being in reference to that first fire over on that same property? Ray: Mainly because we asked Vie, when we did put that fire out I was ready to go home that night at 4:30 and Dave called in at the last second a~d said there was a Íire up there and we didn't have anything to fight a fire anJ I drove by the fire barn and there was nobody there to contact or anything like that and Dave said the fire will not spread, it is inside of a building -- like I said a metal building, dirt floor and the hay was burning. So all I grabbed was shovels, that's the only thing we had to fight firJs with was two shovels so I threw them in the back of the pick-up and I went out there and we put the fire out .,ith shovels so the next thing, He went and asked Vic for the combination -- if we would ever have a brush fire along side of a road or something like that that would be -- just somebody threw out a cigarette and it just starting, if we could put it out and he said that we couldn't have the combination for the building. He said that is fire department and that's it. Rich: Ah, what was the procedure for handling a fire before the Andover Fire Department was involved here? Ray: To my knowledge, I don't knO\,. I would imagine, it must be Anoka, that they called Anoka for every fire. Rich: You're right, it is to call Anoka. Ray: I also know we did put that fire out and we also did save the city some money. The city would have been charged for Anoka to come out. And we did put that fire out without calling Anoka. Rich: Did you also know at that time that the Andover Fire Department was not in service? Ray: No I didn't. I went by, like I said, to check and see if there was anybody there because the fire was up in that area and there was nobody there, so the only thing was, like I said, I took shovels. Rich: You went to so much trouble to try and get hold of the Andover Fire Dapartment at the second fire, yet at the first one which was at the same building, on a dirt floor in a tin building, and it was on the opposite end I would assume according to the ashes that were there -- Ray: No it wasn't at the opposite end, it was in the exact same place. ~peC1.al l.;1.ty l.; ell Mf ~es 27 D~cember 19,_ Page Thirty-Five :lich: All right, but yet why wasn't any attempt made to contact any fire department -- Anoka Fire Department at that first fire? You went through more trouble to get ahold of somebody on the second fir.~, yet the first fire -- if it was an accidental fire, you r~n around and looked half -- over half the city for the fire department and we weren't even in service. Ray: I don't know what you're ;:eferring to on that. But like I said, we were going home -- I was going home, it was almost 4:30 and Dave called, he was on his way in and he happened to call and say so, he said it won't spread so in order to go up there, I just went up there, I just drove by, I didn't chase any place for the fire department or anything like that. If you're referring to that one. And that I just grabbed some shovels and went up there. Rich: Did you put it out? Ray: Yes, we put it out on my own túme. Rich: That was a good job. We put out fires on our own time, too. Pat: Perhaps Rich I could answer one question. Ray isn't here to answer. You asked what we would do in previous cases if there were a fire such as this. The staff has, when we were under contract -- well 1;.¡e still are -- but under Anoka contract th~re h~ve been, I think, three or four fires th~t I recall, sma 11 type fires like that, th~t staff people, whether it be the Dailding Inspector or Sœleone that's been out in thè area, if it I S been a small fil-e, have put ou::. the £ ire simply because A:'oka charged $150.00 if it was two little puffc of smoke to come out and that was sawething that was tried to avoid -- and when that fire was going on up there, we assu.":lc::d Anoka was fighting fires and that I s why they were not contacted bec~use well, for instance, the month of October we were billed $1,300 from Anoka and that $1,300 -- of it a $1,000 of it was nothing but brush fires. So if somebody's there anJ can put it out ~ there's a check of a big difference bctvleen a brush fire anJ a house fire and I guess why my feeling on -- \'lhat the guys were cCJITI::lcIlting~ Dave and R¿¡y ~ is th'2)"" had no hesitation on a br'.lsh fire not being capable of being able to put it out~ their fear is when it: gcts to the point of house fires because then you've bot a completely different thing~ it's much rr:ore involv~d, I'm sure. 11ayor: Is that all aicll? l(ich: Y0ah~ that's all I have. Ndyor: ü",ay. I should find out how many new type q~estions we'\2 got left to gù here. be:cause iZ He' -;e got a lot oc t~lcmJ I \'lant to break if here now or if ther¿'s j~st a sinall nu.'11ber le¡t~ \·¡e've got a secretary that's beca \'lriting furiously ¡or t\..¡o hours anJ. her an.l must be abuut Leady ~o iall off and so, :...ow many more questions migi1t we have? CüulJ I jU&t see a show of hands or peuple that \-,1ant to ask now? This shouldn't be repeated -- rcpe~atlvc type or questions. Is it on~ qücstion or a while s~rics of qU2stions? OnÇ lype o{ qu¿s~ion1 O:~ay~ we'll try tù cover LlLèID th~n. Terr-y. IE yual¿ C0m~ up anJ give yùür nam~ ¿nd address~ plèas~ . (n0::.2 ¡or cûnten'~ consideration: Ac this point in tim,-,: I '.JoLToweù tl1~ transcrlocr that }farcy usually US<J.S and. füiJ...1l mücì.l. core languabc ::ì.l.an upon initia: ..: :;:arrsc r:ip t iO~1~ i.-í.0\ve',\;:r ~ tì..c basic ~O.l~;2il~ of th~ c...::a·.-èr.::;a~icns is p¡..~s~n::.) Si).2cial C.:....._y Cf : il !I! es I~ I D..:Ç~:..1j~r L~i.J i-'.:..;.g_-.: 'Úlirl:j-Si.;-{ 1'..2r;,.:y: M./ Uu!J.2 i,:j 'l'~r¿..y LindquIst. I ~i-,e 8(: 1,~~31 Quin.1 D~i~;c. 0·- --. lJ.uèstiun, I ..~ [,U2SS, ~nJ I'J :~a\-è LO address i::: to t¡'..~ ~i~y Achaillistrator, se.;i:lb .J.s 1:..0\'¡ t:h~)' get ~hJ pilo~a c~l~s. For the record, hOi.J L13:':Y tir.¡cs .1re 'We ¡;oing to i.la\~ t:.ù iJ~ suìJI:lÍtt~d to a dl"ill '{ Pat: As I said oc[o~e 12~ry, I th-:n~ -- aad being Hiti1 :::'lle sta¡¡ Lh~ last three t.1ù;lt~lS E incc thi3 thing happened, I ::hin~ that is it. In ¡act, I tlon I:::. ha V2 to say I tllin'K, as .lar as I'm COllCer110J, I ì;;nü\v i::'s it. Ti2rry: At this pùint, anybody can J~ this and [;e~ a\ìay '.vith it, right? PaL: ,;ell, as rar 35 anyone -- I can just speak £01' the staff, I ca:11 t say John Doe oat tÌ1¿re wha:: they are soing to do, tha tis up to th;..: at tülïlèY, up to th~ 1.:1\"', I JO~ll t -- if they say thcy can go. t away with it, they can du it, we can't stop th2m. TQr~-y : ßJi;: i:"s legal, my GuJ~ Pat: But I can just speak about th~ s::.a££, that I don't think :.:h.!re would be anything lib; that happening again. Nayor: I thi:11~ \J~ SìlOiJlJ be a li~tl.~ bi~ car~ful. \\fhat Bill was saying :1ere 3r1d ~'Jith it. You knm.v, uadèr the identical circL~stan~es -- Leca'lse the County Attorney or tiny prosecuting at~or~QY wOiJIJ look at the conditions of each one ¿¡nd I think YO'J have to be a li t t Ie bit care[ul assuminG that the County Attorn~y wouldn't prosecute another type o[ thing that lJaS uaJer di£fer~nt circumstances. You know, maybe a fire lIas set hut uud~r different circumst~nces. I think -- and mayotl Bill dich ' t make that clear as to -- this opinîon is based. on the [acts of this case a~d :,/ou knm..¡, they might look ilt another case entirely different. '!'erry: O:zay, let me r~-phrase that. If a citizen of Andover wanted tv run a test to check ou~ time, he Ciln do it, is that right? At <:Iny timè and -- Bob: There's no city ordinanc~, no. Uayor: No, that's under State Code. I can't imagine that to be the case, Te rry. nab: Ho>' do you -- what are you interpretatipg, Hayor? That you say it's unùer a State Code, that that would be -- would be violation of a State Code? I don't have any idea ~.¡herc you 1 re pulling that froI:l. Nayor: You've Bot to understand that their opinion on this was based 'In the facts as presented -- BOD: I can understand that, but under what violation of th, -- H3yor: You've r;üt .::l different set of Codes, I mean, a different set of facts dca ling with something. Bab: Violation of what code -- what code ~'Iould I violate by going out and starting a fire in this city to test -- to tesc tima? Hayor: Bob, I can 1 t just say, I c,-n't cite statutes to -- Sµ~cial City C, -:il lfj ~s 27 D~c~mber 19i_ Page Thirty-Seven .Jo'ù: I don't think there is. From everything Bill has told us, I don't be lieve there is. Unless there is an issue -- Mayor: Well, we can get Bill to clarify that for you because I don't think it's meant as the way Terry's interpreting it. Terry : Ilell, all right, again, it's on record tonight. Mayor: We can get that clarified, Terry. Terry: He did make that on record tonight. He clarified that right here. Mayor: Yeah. But I think part of that was missing. I think under the same set of circumstances, but we'll get Bill to clarify that to us and get an opinion on the thing so that it's -- everybody's clear on it. Terry : Okay. ïhen, my next question is, if in fact it is, should I -- I guess I would have to ask myself, why would I want to stay on the Fire Department? You know, if this can come up time and time again, it doesn't make much sense. Mayor: Let's get the thing clarified -- on that one, Terry. Terry : Lnd are yoa clarifying it now on the record that it is not? Mayor: I'm not an attorney, by any means I don't want to give legal advise of any sort. All I'm saying is we'll get Bill to clarify the point as to what -- how -- what he may have meant or what was said with it. Terry: So the people of Andover tonight -- at the end of this meeting are going to be -- what are they going to hear? It is Ie ga 1 ? Hayor: It will be, you know, next week before Bill will have a chance to get back to us with his interpretation of it. Terry : Itls a gray area, is that what you're saying now? Mayor: From a legal standpoint, I C&~'t answer you Terry. I simply have no training in the law. Jerry, did you have a question? No. Bob? Bob: Yeah, Bob Palmer, 2540 l40th Avenue. I think, on this response time, I feel that when w~ reached the fire barn, that should have given the people enough to know what the response was going to be. They can just drive to where the fire scene was and determine how much longer it would have taken. Why it wasn't stopped at the fire barn and tell the guys it was a fire drill -- and then, there was another one about concerned citizens and the fire sirens on Saturday. I donlt know as though -- unless it is somebody driving by that's gonna care because the lady in the house that owns the fire barn there did not even know we had a fire that we went on, And we take right off out of her yard. Mayor: Rae, do you wish to respond? Rae Ellen: May I answer that. Bob: Yes. Rae Ellen: They are probably not home during the week, I don't know, maybe they ~ork. Bob: Yeah, but even if they -- even if they work (unintelligible) -- special City Cr oil W as 27 Dec~mber 19Îv Page Thirty-Eight Rae Ellen: I don't know who called, the lady wouldn't give her nace, bu~ it was mentioned every Saturday morning. Bob: Okay. Frank: I'm Frank. Stone, 2725 134th Lana Nortr~est. I'm un th~ Instructors Co~ittee with the Fire DepartDent. I just want to brIng up one thing about the little bells that you hear clinging "ad the little bit of laughter that you heàr in tne other room. I tell you waa:, I think that a few of thesa people -- the next house we burn, I'd lik~ to have them come out there and sit out there and watch. Which I know a couple of you have, because when this guy goes in and he's n~ver heard that bell before, ~e ain't boing to come back out of that fire. Ib don't know when his air is gone so you better get demn well uszJ to what that bell sounds like and when that b.Ül rings, I hope I hear it again because I don't want him coming out the door carried out witaout the laugh. That's all I got to say but if I hear laughter coming from the fira department -- 807. of that job bette~ be fun because the rest of it isn't. I'd lik..! to see a few more of you people stop down and see what really happens. Mayor: Thank you. There was another -- Bob, you? Bob: Bob Dillon, 4995 l59th. I think everybody knows why my feelings are on this thing so I'm not going to delve into the past. I'm very concerned about certain things in the future. We have some obvious and rather substantial areas of -- gray areas that have been pointed out or lack of communication or whatever -- maybe we are fortunate that this thing wasn't any more serious than it was. Ilm concerned about how we go fon,ard from here. We've laid the ground work for a good healthy VW sanction within the city and we people are going to have to work together to whatever extent cooperation can be had. I think that's going to be very difficult under these circumstances. Obviously we need an ordinance. I've been through this a time or two. I can remember when a young man was stabbed a few hundred feet from my house and probably the same County Attorney could find no crime but it didn't take them long to lock the guy up that did it. But if I had a ten dollar bill for every time I've called Federal Despatch wanting them to go out and break up a field party, I wouldn't have to work for a while. So apparently, if we're going to have a policy and order in our community we're going to have to do it by local ordinance which is the hard way. I don't like local ordinances because it can be -- they get out of hand but in this case, we are going to have to have something in writing so that everybody can see it. And we're going to have -- hey, Vic's the fire chief -- anything that has to do with a fire, you check with him and if he ain't around, you handle it this way. Now they might not like Vic and they might not like me, in fact Vic and I might not get along, but that's all beside the point, we live in the city and we're trying to do a job here and unless we establish some channels of communication, this thing will reoccur. If this is left where it now lies, we have established a very dangerous precedent. That's the first thing you learn when going to school. If there's a box on the wall that says fire, you leave the damn thing alone. Whether you're that height when you start school or whatever, you've got the sam~ thing. And I might recommend with your irrate phone calls, I don't see why -- there's nothing illegal about recording telephone conversations if you tell the other person it's being recorded and if it is a problem of the magnitude we See here, I think the city should post haste buy that equipment and instruct all of it's people who sit behind the desk in an official capacity that when they get a call, that they oelieve is abusive, you simply inform the person that the call is being rè'corded, turn on the ~ecper or whatever it is and j'..1st let it roll along as long its ::>pec~ai t;ity c.; 011 Hi es 27 ::J2.cer:J.~er 19/ ~ Page Thirty-Ni~~ Bob Dilloa continued . . . they \-lant to. That in itself -- to occupy some body's time on the telephone for purposes of being obscene is a crime and I see nothing wrong with recording that. And just inform them that it's being recorded and would you please state your name and just set the telephone down, bing, and go away. There's no sense in getting to a point where our judgements are impaired by irrate citizens and I guess I feel that's what happened with this thing. Pat, could you tell me the name of the insurance agent (change of tape occurs at this time) -- Pat: One of the agents was Farmers and the other is American Family. Bob: Well that h~ppens to be my insurance company. (Unintelligible) with an Anoka address, is tha t right? Pat: Uh huh. And he kno<ls where we live and he's been out and he knows how many miles from Anoka -- he's well aware of it. Bob: Well that gentleman just might be in for a surprise if he's giving somebody else a different rate because of a ficticious address. It Seems to me that he may be in a slight amount of trouble. Pat: Hy address isn't ficticious, it's my actual address. Bob: No, but his fire rating at this address is -- Pat: Well I also got -- in fact, I've gotten proposals from about four different companies -- Bob: And they all listed it the same? Pat: No, no they didn't all list it. State BaDm gave me a proposal under a 6 rating, and then they called back about three days later and it went up about $80.00 and they changed it to a 9 or a 10 rating -- I'm sorry. And -- I'm trying to think of the other companies that we had gotten prices on and one other one had rated us a 6, the others were in the -- rated ita 10. United Fire & Casualty Company's rating was a 6. Bob: They were more concerned about the company -- the premium, of course, thanks for bringing it up. Nayor: Bob, excuse me for interrupting. Kenny did the research on that whole subject and I believe if I remember what Kenny was saying that Some of the books or something groups Andover and Anoka under that 6 rating bec~use the Anoka Fire -- Anoka covers us and their department is ~ated 6 so therefore that rating carries over. Wasn't that how you -- K2n: Yeah, there I s -- a couple of cür.4panies ha~.'e come out with something in trying to -- apparently they aren't competitively priced otherwise and are trying to make themselves competitive and they've used different methods. If you're within three miles or one mile or five miles or something like that of a particular type fire department that responds, then you can have that rate. Though, I checked ~nd I don't have the figures at the present time, I !:ave them someplace. At the time prior to the bond issue when I checked, I checked a 11 the companies that wrote -- all the c~wpanies in the top ten writers in the state and I b~lieve there was one of those that allowed within three or four or five miles 0r something, not one of -- someo~~ Special City C, :il Hi es 27 D~ccr.¡be:c 19ì v P3ge ],'orty Ken continued . . . that wrote less than one p~rcent of the business in the state ,.¡a::.. still in the top ten but did allow that, the rest of them did not, although I know also of several abents that do that type of thing. Since that time it's hard to tell. There's a couple of companies that are very -- well, it's hard to point out what they're doing, yo~ know, with~ut any official idea of ~hat they are doing. They are somewhat secretive and they apparently condone the fact that werre going to gat this business anyway we can. So, you'll talk to one person and he'll say absolutely not and you talk to another one and they say yeah, we do it all the time. So -- Mayor: Okay, Bob, are you finished? Bob: Very good, yup. Mayor: O"'.<ay, fine, thank you. Anyone else? Anybody on the co"mcil have any further questions? Anyone else? Okay, at this time I'm going -- if there are no other questions 11m going to recess here five or ten minutes and at this point in time to the staff, if you wish to stay fine, if you wish to go, fine. Because I ass·.lm~ that the council here will make a decision. red: We weren't going to handle any other matters? You know, I mean, any questions that the personnel might have? Hayor: Okay. Yeah. BJb: Do you want it open? Hayor: The real question, I don't know -- with given the hour if we want to get into any of the -- any other personnel questions. I realize that you're right, that it was on the agenda. I guess as long as we've got the total staff here, is there any other personnel questions or issues that might want to be brought up at this time? Or would it be best holding them? It -- Rae? Rae Ellen: I have a question for Mr. Evans. My ooncern is lack of day time fire fighters. At one council m~eting or Capital Improvements meeting, I don't know the date and I did not bother to check it, you said that we were going to get day time volunteers by going and recruiting help from the industrial parks and I believe you said the sod farmers. I 'lOuld like to know what happened? Vie: We compiled a list of people (asked to use the microphone, please) -- we compiled a list of approximately 54 or 55 companies which included some of the sod farmers and I think last year, or early last year I called everyone of them to see if they had anyone in their employ who lived in the City of Andover and would like to join the fire department and participate in day time fire coverage. At the same time I asked the employer if he had such a person, if he would allow them to respond and the answers -- 100% of the answers were they did not hav~ anyone in that position and worked for the City -- that liv~d in the City of Andover and wanted to join the fire department. Now, nQxt -- mid-next month we're going to do the same thing allover again. But we want to do a lot more this time than just call the companies. We have ~ public relations committee and our person~el committee are working on a major campaign effort to increase our day time fire fighters. This has been in the mill for about two months now. So mid-next month you'll be seing another big campaign, not only just calling these companies and interviewing some of them but other things will be taking place at the same time. ~pecia1 City C, :11 MI es 27 D"cpmber 19/ ~ Page Forty-One Mayor: Any::hing else, otherwise u staff, you can choose what you wish to do. H you want to stay or you want to leave. It's up to yourselves. We'll come back at ten to ten. (Recess at 9:40 PH.) (Meeting reconvened at 10:02 PH. ) Hayor: Coulù W2 reconven2 please. Okay, I Bue.55 -- can I get going here. I guess itls now up to the council to decide what course of action that the r.lajority here wishes to pursue. r guess, has anybody got any thoughts? T.od: I guess it was my opinion that the firè department are the p~ople that feel that they seriously h~v~ been wronged and I guess I'd like to get some ideas frora them on what course of action they see fit kaowing that we're just -- our fire departI:lent is rea lly in its infancy and this spirit of cooperation and co~u1ication that is p.ecessary is going to have to start someplace and I guesc with that I'd just like to hear what some of their corrtnents might be. Vic: As far as the (ask2d to use the microphone, please) -- Clerk: One more strike and youlre out -- Hayor: Sihn her up for the department, Vie. Vie: I guess I kind of vasci12tc between two extrc~es as far as 'Hha t I think should take plac". I think the reason that I do -- I have to give my -- these are my p~rsonal comments, I don't know how everyone else feels in general, especially \"Iith what we now know. Urn, I hear 50m2 type of a remorSe in the voices of the p20ple we asked questions oi tonight anù to the point that tiley rea lly ùon 't know why they ùie! have c2rtQin -- take cer~ain actions aúd they wis11ed they h.s.dn I t have dune them. But then I go to tne other ~xtremc and I realize the ded ica t ion and the time and lne effort ~hat ~las goü.e into tÌLè build:ng of ti1is fire ~cpé1rtTIent and what t11~s2 m>.!ll are respùnsi:,le ~or, what has ~cen accomplished. in the perioJ of tim,::- t ì.la t we I ve been together and it really makes me mad when I tnink of wha t \Jas done to them, to tLc danger that \,¡as i.nvob:ed in duinô tílis, to the fact t11at w¿ wer~ questiol1<2d alh.hlt -- Jut not q~estion2d. \Jè \;:ere accused but no Oì."~ let us ìcnow. Tì.lis was ::ì.1C .action that ·.-.-as cllOsen to prov<l or disprov~ the ¡ ire ":epartm2nt's viaaility. I ~hink th¿n~ W-.;l"¿ so many other ùp~i.oas oplln -- to th:.; s::a[': 0>'- anyon~ els~ \.,.:10 llad qUe.stiOllv as :0 ~.:lat we v,¡~.L·~ dù~no' ;~-hat O..lL" , 0. -- ::.~~~~-.::! ",¡ere ù::.l,er ways to ..1.0 ii.:. p.Lau.s \.¡e:::~, A",-1 I gu¿.-:1S I ':c¿ì. ~ne ¡ire dcpaL'~l"':~:i.. -- ::'il~ m~n 0n th2 ¡ il\,~ Jep....r~m...:nt ~laVQ been gre.atly \,.¡roHbed by L~lis action aad :::.h¿¡tls :..h¿ othe.r cxtr2me tha::: I :"cl. U.n, I ¡eel that £' ,)l~ ::il.~ fa..::.s t part of this, fiction was t..ak~n or caused to be ta:zen 0';: not stopp"J by c' t'vJO i:-.Jiviùüals that ha¿ ::.llC brèatcst rcsponsi0ility o~ tl~e ci'-y staff. ....lC H~m'.Jcj,'-3 -- th;,l o"ly t\..o memoers tha:: had supervisory rèspoasibi1ity aüJ I gûèSS I 100:"- to tL.era as the persons \-J:lO couLl have stopped it. T:le persons who I woulJ havè thuught \-Jould have ìwd -- 't.¡l,at is it, greater knowl~dbe or greater wisdom, \.Jha teve r Yo'J. l;-.;ant to call it, cO;Jld havc; stopped this thing early c~ough anJ the accusations u~ lpcl-\: of cor:nnunications cernes out ov~r and ov¿r aga in a-.1ù \.-e 'Co,'· involved, yo;J. D- " kilo\v, Od a w~ekly basis, ue knoH W1lat 'W'e I r~ ~ùillg, 'We knù\>¡ wha tour pl&ns are, w" , , ,. Oil training and we have Lim.2.s wh~re some.body cracks d . . 11a ve a nea vy em¡.hla S 1 S j Or~~ anJ \ole. ì.lave tÍIï1es w11e¡.-e the guys squirt each otn2r w1th wdter, ¿specially wh~n itls hot. You know, iJig ¡leal, this is -- tì.1Ís is just part of o¿ing human, but everY0111~ here ~no\'J~ the s~rio-ls natur¿ 0.. our trainin8 Jut to be accused of doing -- that this is .;1 v]rong thing and \.JC I re not -- wclre not training and we 'lon I t ¡lave th2 ability to do what HC na\.'c been asked to do O~ volunteered to do, 11m just -- I ieel - that that is also a v]roLlg. And -- like I said 1;)e£ore, I guess th~ thing tha t Special City C' eil Hi 'es 27 December 19iv l'ase Fòrty-Tv1O Vie continued . . . concerns me the most is, you know, the impact it I S had on the guys here anj the fact that this is going to be part of our history as far as our fire department's history and urn, I don't know -- it was just to me a complete lack of common sense that this thing took place. Like I say, this is personally how I feel. Mayor: Any other of the fire department officials or -- Hr. Peach. Bob: Yes, I think the evidence this evening has shown us pretty much that -- I've got it written down some'\:"]here, that two people were quite heavily involved in this activity. I think the evidence has shown that Pat had failed to live up to her responsibility as acting administrator by not stopping this and by not doing a lot of things that perhaps she should have done, certainly she should have done. I think Mr. Sowada has been -- showed incredible indiscretion in this matter. I feel his -- it probably shows that he was a prime instigator in the activity. He went out and got the matches and the gasoline and hay, he was involved in almost every conversation before the fire, he went on private property with hardly any permission at all except some vague reference to somebody else having permission, he endangered private property by starting a fire on it, it just overwhelms me the number of things he did that were -- that seemed to be wrong. He initiated an emergency procedure which endangered the lives and safety and property and welfare of the fire fighters and other residents of both Andover and Anoka and I think I would like to recommend that the city council schedule disciplinary public meetings for these two employees to decide what to do about it because I think -- what has to be taken into consideration are their entire rather than -- I don't think they should be punished for their relationship with the fire department but how are they performing their entire job? They certainly -- there are serious indiscretions in this area and I think it should be looked at. Mayor: Rich. Rich: Well, this is just my own personal opinion on the situation. That first meeting we had, I was pretty irrate about it and was very emotional and I wanted their heads. After thinking -- what was it, three months now -- if I could sit here and say I have never done anything wrong, then I would say something drastic has to be done to these people. But I can't say I never did anything wrong so I think they've suffered for quite a while thinking about this and I really can't say we should get too carried away with these people. Mayor: Anyone else? Tom. Tom: Tom May and I live at 14034 Crosstown Boulevard. I guess I feel kind of the same way Rich does. I think something should be done to prevent this from happening again. I think that if we --whatever we do that is in the line of punishment isn't going to help the situation. What I would like to do is get to the point where we can work together and get some cooperation. I don't know, maybe some letters of reprimand would be in order, I don't know. But I think it should be applied fairly to the city staff if there is a punishment, taking into consideration what the responsibilities of the jobs are. I don't know if I could be satisfied with two people bearing the brunt of an action that involved everybody on the city staff. And I don't know -- when it first came out, you know, when I first heard about it, I just couldn't believe it -- that somebody would take an action like this and I certainly wouldn't want to see it ever happen again. And I think that an Ordinance would be in order for this situation and maybe something should be spelled out that Special City C cil Hi +:es 27 December 19/~ Page 'Forty-Three Tom continued . . . as to who is responsible for calling the fire drills and hope- fully it would be the fire chief. I've never heard of a drill that was not pre-planned and for the fir2 department -- for instance a school drill and the school administration didn't know about the fire drill before it happened. I guess that's all I have to say. Mayor: Thank you, Tom. Anyone else? Any other comments? Anyone? Okay, let's bring it back to the council. I guess I'd ask the question again, what is the council wishing t~ do? Mary: Mayor, are you taking the comments in order as it -- Mayor: Fine, go ahead. Mary: At this moment I'm very very proud to have heard a comment from one of your fire officials. I think you have a very sensitive person on your department who has a g~nuine concern for the community. Rich Lindeen portrayed exactly what should be done if We Were all to sit here and say that We want the best possible service for our people, the people who pay the salaries of the staff, the people who have -- are going to be paying for the equipment for the fire department. The staff chose a very unorthodox way to run a test. I don't think anyone of them is going to say that that was the best thing that they could have done, but I think it's time for both of the factions -- the city staff and the city fire department -- to get back on the same road together and to begin pulling together. I think you have expressed in some fashion, one way or another I heard it in several occasions tonight, most eloquently from Rich Lindeen that you're concerned and your concern is for the future. The future is in your hands, the decision is in your hands. We can have another October 4th meeting, we can have lots of them, and we can raise fists and yell and scream and then we can list2n to the comments that I've heard since that meeting, some of the citizens who have called me and we're all under a test constantly. I'm under a test, the fire department is being scrutinized, what kind of behavior do these people have, what kind of behavior do you Mary as a council woman have, what kind of behavior doas the staff have? They ask these questions because they have given us a lot of their lives, their welfare is in our hands collectively. Now we can keep fighting among ourselves, as Cleveland does, and We can wind up in a disaster like Cleveland, or we can set the issue aside, We can take a vote on the council to note that the matter has been dealt with, I believe the obvious has -- the obvious legal questions have been asked by the county attorney. That in itself was traumatic for all of the principals involved and I think we can m~ve on with what we've got and that's the seeds of a good community spirit, we can have a good community out here or we can have a factioned community. We can have polarized and then diacotomised and then we're done. Mayor: Kenny. Ken: I, you know, I have some conments I've jotted down earlier and it Seems as though to me that some of the people that were involved had different reasons for what they did. And it seems as though some felt that there was a question as to the competency of the fire department and maybe rightfully so. They had to answer for the city to the public and for that reason either knew or knew about or helped in the test and it seems that maybe one or maybe more of the others seemed to have some special reason to maybe try and prove that the department was not capable and went - into it for that reason. I'm not sure and I don't think we have any way of Special City C cil MJ '",es 27 DQcember 19,_ Page Forty-Four Ken continued . . . determining what the thoughts of these people were prior to or during the test. so, it has to be resolved. I, for one, think it should be noted somewhere that the city strongly disapproves of that type of an action and that an ordinance, if necessary, to make it illegal should it hnppen again. I think that has to be cleared up, although I think that the state provides for that sort of thing if it's -- I think that'll be ShO'lIl by future investigation by the attorney. But somewhere this city has to note that there -- their official thoughts on t~e incident, whether it should be in, you know, just in the public record or in a letter of reprimand or -- to those most heavily involved or whatever, I don't know. Bob McClure: It's been difficult for me to not become terribly eDotional over this. I agree with most things that have been said here this evening. There's one thing that I think we have to keep in mind and that is, that not only is our fire depart- ment a young fire department, this city is a young city and I for one have made a bunch of mistakes up here serving the city, I'm sure I haven't made the most correct decision in all cases, and all I can do is try. But some'ivhere along the line v]e are going to have to all pull together or we're going to go down the toilet. So I think we've all hassled with it, I know I have, ani it almost seems secondary to me now tonight as to what method or means of reprimand is issued, if any. I think in my mind the most import2nt thing -- we've got to get going to make darn sure that we don't have silly things like this happening within the city, not only in the -- with the fire department or affecting the fire department but we -- we're in the process of formulating new departments and we can all sabotage one another -- there are many ways not oaly to sabotage the fire group but a public works group and an ~ccounting group, whatever, and that really shakes me up. I don't know whether that all ought tü be controlled by ordinances, I mean it scares the lif8 out of m~. If that is what it takes to keep this thing -- this in-fighting or rivalry or whatever we want to call it, to keep that sort of a thing to a miniDum, if we have to control it by ordinances, I honestly don't Kno", hm·J we can do it. I don It knm.. tow \.¡e can control crossing lines from one group to another by way of ordinances. I guess I see its possible if itls not presently covered which I have a question in my own mind as to the legality of setting a fire for whatev~r reason. IE there's no coverage on that at present, yes I can see -- I can see an easy way out on that by way of an ordinanc~. But what couli they -- what could anyone think of to sabotago another group -- sabotage the accounting group, the bookkeeping group. How in heavens name would we ever try to generate an ordinance to make something like th2t illegal or unlawful, we don't have all the policies we should have as a city. \Ie're trying to formulate them. And we can't keep zaing forever without policies. So it's kind of a catch 22 to my way of thinking -- we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. \Ie could go to one extreme and los« people over t:,is and where does the city stand next week or next month when we have things to accomplish, things to -- things need to be doae and we don't even havê any \.¡arm bodies around. That is a consideration. I don 't -- I guess I don't really have a hard and fast solution. I'~ trying to keep myself from going to the extreme simply because I see same ramifications there and I'm almost asking, I guess, I'm bringing myself to asking the fire group to really give it some serious thought. I realize the council is the one that's charged with making the decision and r'm not wanting to shirk my responsibility in that respect but not only has the fire group been wronged but so has the city as a "hole, so has a lot of residents and these same people ",ill be wronged, will be hurt if we don't have people to accomplish the jobs that we're going to have and need to be done next week, next month, so itls going to one extreme, getting rid of people. \lhat are the ramifications in each of these choices we have to make? You know, we have to look a little further than the end of our nose. So I gu~ss that's where I sit. Special City C ,il Hi es 27 December 19ìu Page 'Forty-Five Mayor: Thank you. Ted. Ted: vlel1, I guess speaking about just starting out, I think we've got the s~me situation with our staff. Ray, for example, is a new employee. I thin1: one of the reasons we hired him was because he was ki~d of a go-getter, to get the job done type of thing and I think that he is learning the limits of his authority. We have seen a couple of instances where Ray has taken it upon himself to get some things done and in Pat's case, I think that she's trying to find herself yet in an acting administrator role and I'm not trying to make excuses for these people but I don't know that she has had adequate time to really -- or at least on September 28th -- really to fully understand let's say the actions of someone like Ray, what he might do. Just being aware of talk at city hall, I'm not sure that she's aware of really to what extent that -- how far that talk might go. At the same time I think she's -- she's still trying to find herself in terms of communicating with the employees in the office. I think we're all a bunch of beginners here is one thing I'm saying and there is no question that a lesson has been learned already. I think that much the fire department is aware of. As far as the involvement of the other individuals on the staff, with all the information I have as far as I can tell, Delores had in no way indicated that she thought this was a good idea, although Jeanette said it was a good idza. I think she really was just saying it after the fact type thing. I really don't think she had any desire to see this happen or anything else. Now these are only my impressions of what -- the information I've got and of course, we know that Bob Muskowitz was not involved before hand. Now as far as the other individuals go, I really don't know. Dave didn't say anything tonight. I guess I would really feel bad about trying to put the blame on two individuals when there could be four or six that maybe helped get the emotions high enough to do this thing. Okay, I guess that what I'm saying is just lighting the fire isn't the only thing that got uS to that point. So I guess there was apparently very active involvement on the part of Ray and I think that Pat being his supervisor and being aware of this had some responsibility to put a stop to it. That's -- I guess that's the point where I'm not sure any further because we've got Dave who at least Has involved and aware and maybe had the same reasons to be involved that Ray did, I'm not sure. Maybe he's just not quite the same take-charge type of individual and maybe he is. And Rae Ellen seems to express still much concern about the situation and I guess my idea would be that we should make it known that what was done was not sanctioned by the city in any W3Y and it was zomething that we are disgusted about and I would think that at the very minimum what we should do is for those people that had an active involvement to at least get a copy of their statements into their own personneljackets with a motion by the council indicating that this was a bad thing to do and that in a sense does become that much of a reprimand. And I really can't se~ anything beyond that mainly because I still don't feel we really know all of the facts leading up to this thing and really all the players and what their part was. Mayor: Okay, if what -- my notes here, at least two people have suggested some type of a lettèr of reprimand here, you and Kenny. I guess would that be the feeling of the four of you here? Mary: No Mayor, I think I would -- I can try a motion I think would be very apparent at this time of how the council feels. MOTION: I move that the City Council notes for the record that they as Council disapprove of the manner in which the test was executed but wishes at this time to drop the issue. Hayor: There was a motion made, is there a second to the motion? There's a motion made, is there a second to the motion? Motion dies for lack of a second. Does anyone else have a motion? Special City C, ;il Mi .cs 27 December 1978 Page Forty-Six Ted: I guess I would make a MOTION: that we enter into the personnel files of each of ~he individuals identified as taking an active part in the fire call of September 23th as indicated by the letter from the County Attorney of November 8, 1978, and it's attached memos, that we place that document from the County Attorney along with a statement of disapproval for the actions taken by Pat Lindquist, Ray Sowada, Dave Almgren. I guess I would stop it there. I just don't have a good feeling for any additional active involvement on the part of others. Mayor: Motion made, is there a second? Bob McClure: Second. Mayor: Discussion on the motion? Bob McClure: Yes. Going back to questions Bob Peach asked of legal counsel, is this all copacetic without having this present motion saying such as a letter of reprimand -- without the city having a public hearing? Mayor: The answer is yes, Bob. Bob McClure: The answer is yes? Mayor: I checked with Bill this afternoon on this. If it would be a situation of a suspension or a termination, at least in Bill's definition, it would then -- it should go to a public hearing. Ken: I would have only this suggestion that to make it entirely fair that -- or as fair as I feel it could be, there were comments made this evening by a lot of people that were involved and it seems to me that the record of tonight's meeting would contain the feelings of the co~ncil, to disapprove of the action and that being in the individuals personnel files, would also show their feelings and their position and the council's discussion on the matter and would make it a lot clearer for someone in the future to read the file. l~yor: Why don't you amend the motion, Kenny? Ken: I would AMEND THE -- propose an AMENDMENT TO THE MOTION: stating that the complete record of the December 27th meeting regarding the unauthorized fire drill be submitted -- be placed along with the letter from the -- dealing with the County Attorney's investigation -- in the files of those people involved in the incident. Mayor: Motion made, is there a second? Bob McClure: Second. Mayor: Any discussion on the amendment? Ken: I should just explain now that my thinking on this was -- is that by putting the letter in, I don't know that the letter explained as much as -- we have learned more here this evening than I believe what the letter explained. By putting the letter in everyone's file, and I feel some people weren't involved and some were - and also some of those that were identified as being actively involved had explanations for some items that were contained in that -- of course, that wouldn't be placed in their until after the minutes were approved, I would assume. Special City C oil M; es 27 Decemocr 19iv . Pag" Forty-Seven Mayor: No, they -- the way your motion is reading, it would be placed in anyone's that was affected. Ken: Well, the original motion stated anyone identified in that letter -- Mayor: No, Ted went and specifically named the names -- Ken: Oh, are you saying now just those three? Ted: Yeah, I did. Ken: Well originally he said anyone identified in the County Attorney's letter -- Ted: I said both. Ken: Which one was it? Ted: Well I guess nid-stream I guess I changed it to the three because -- Ken: Well, if it IS meant to be the ~hree, then that's what my motion is -- only to tag on with an explanation telling their side also and the comments that were involved here this evening by both. Ted: The idea of those three being individuals who took an active part in the call. Ken: O~;.ay. Hayor: Does the motion still stand as is? Ken: If itls understaoe. Mayor: -- get it clarified? Ted: Could you read it back? Clerk: That the complete record of the December 27th meeting regarding the unauthori- zed fire drill be placed along with the letter d.aling with this from the County Attorney' 5 investig~tion of those people involved in the incident. Ken: Placed in the file of those people identified as active participants -- Bob McClure: Do you want to name them? Council conversation as to which should be named. Ken: Okay, and they "lOuld be named the same as in the main motion, which ,,,auld be Ray, Dave and Pat. Mayor: Does the second still stand? Any discussion on the zmendment? Mary: Mayor, I did not have a turn to comment on the IDdin motion. I 110uld like to ask Hr. Lachinski, a previous comment you made is that you ar~ not aware or are not clear as to all the parts by all the players, the extent of it, but yet your motion states three particular staff members. To me that displays confusion and perhaps Spccial City C : il }¡j cs 27 ~"ccmbcr l~/u Page ·~orty-Eight Mary cO:J.tinued . . . a falsQilcss about what you are saying then. If you are not sure as to the extent that each of thc stûff members "as involved and yet you havc placed yourself in the position to judge only three, 1 believe you will have to note an explanation or you will havQ to explain that to me because I fe~l you are stepping beyond the bounJs of a council~~n -- cou~cilperson in th2 ~rea of proper juùgern~nt. T~d: \.'nat I'm trying not to do is judge, I guess, the three individu~ls 1 named. I think the situation is quite obvious as far as Ray and Dave did, and as far as Pat, there is some, I feel, some responsibility on her part being their supervisor. As far as the other office staff, I mentioned D2]ores, J2anette ~nd Bob Muskowitz. We tnew Bob did not hav~ any part in it. It appeared to me ia the document that Delores only -- in fact, was very hesitant about placing the fire call. She didn 't even want to do that but sh~ did know there was a fire. That was my feeling on that, and as far as Jeanette goes, it seems to me that all her involvement was -- was almost an after the fact type of comment, it didn1t seem like a bad idea, but 1 think think she was -- she would have ever come up with this on her own. The only other proülem I had was with Rae because she is expressing her feelings in such a \Vay that 1 feel that quite possibly and 1 have no >lay of kno>linz this but that she had some part in b'....1ilding the emotional attitwies at the time and since I don't knm'] that for sure, I gucss 1 don't feel I can reprimand her in anyway for that. But that is my feelings on each of the individuals involved. l1ayor: Kenny, you have same -- I guess I really have some second thoughts about the naming the main things, if you took the -- took a look at it and let the record stand for itself -- Ken: Well, that's -- that \Vas my thought and the record is probably going to be pretty self-explanatory. l1ayor: Right. If you l~t the record stand for yourself with the motion t~at councilperson Lachins~i had without th~ ntimes in it, 2nd then whoever or whatever purpose the record would stand for in th~ future would have, which is how to do the case anyway is to make an independent judgement as to what his or her inter- pretations of the records are, you know. Ted: I understand what you1re sayin~, Mayor, but I guess, you know, if all 1 did -- say if I participated in this and alII did was supply some matches, 1 guess it might be pretty hard to explain to some future ~mployer. l1ayor: But all I'm saying is that the record would stand on its own. :red: I guess -- Mary: The record would stand on its own where, ~wyor? I thin'( that should be clarified. Are you in f~vor of the personnel file insertion or just the records as anyone can read the transcripts of what we're dealing with here and the comments, I'd like that clarifi~d. Mayor: Yeah, my personal opinion is it should go in with the personnel files. Ted: J::verybody' s? Special City C ~il Hj es I 27 December 19/u Page Forty-Nine. Mayor: Of the -- of, well, in Muskowitz's case, obvious ly not. And in Jeanette's case, you know, you could make an argument that might be carrying something to a finite extreme someplace. The rest of it you're getting down to just a situation where you've got a total record that would stand on its own, anyone that reads it could make their own decision. Ken: Yeah. The thing I'm thinking is that do those types of things get a fair reading or do they by their mere presence note Scrm3 sort of something, you know, you might say that for one you don't feel is involved put it in the record to clear him, it may on the other hand in someone I s mind create some real q'lestions just by the fact that it's there, Mayor: What are your thoughts? Are you wanting it for the three named persons or are you wanting it to be put in for -- Ken: Yeah, it's hard to say. I guess that's -- (Under the breath comments by several,) Ken: You knaw, Ted's explanation that -- call it major involvement if you will, came out of the County Attorney's letter, to my way of thinking and that the actual parts were made by Dave and Ray and the knowledge by their supervisor and I think those acts would constitute maybe what you would call major involvement and the rest, we don't have record of any way. Nayor: So what is it? Wh~re do you stand with that motion? Ken: I guess as she has it. Mayor: As the way it was? Ken: As amended. l1ayor: Is the second still standing on that? Okay, poll the council, please. Ted: Yes. Bob I1cClure: This is on which? llayor: On the amendment. Bob NcClure: Yes. Ken: Yes. Mary: No. Jerry: I really don't know. I would have to say yes, Mayor: Okay, we've got the amended motion, is there any discussion on the motion in total now? Special City C, ,il Hi es 27 December 1970 Page Fifty Ken: I would just like to make sure that it's clear what we intended. Is that okay? Did you change the motion to show three people instead of the -- whichever way you \lant it, it should be worded as clearly as -- Mayor: Yeah, I think the main motion, that first part of Ted's motion should be read back because I think it's saying two things in it. Could you read that first part back? Clerk: That we enter into the personnel files of each of the individuals identified as taking an active part in the fire call of September 28th as indicated by the letter from the County Attorney of November 8, 1978, and its attached memos. That we place that document from the County Attorney along with a statement of disapproval for the actions taken by Pat Lindquist, Ray Sowada and Dave Almgren. And then he goes, I just don't have a Lood feeling for any additional actions involved on the part of others so that I'm interpreting it that that is more of a comment. Mayor: Is the motion the way you want it? Ted: Yeah, the -- I guess it did read okay, I think, it started out talking about active involvement and then the intention was to name those individuals. Bob Hc::lure: I have one question. As I understood that motion, I believe the people identified in the attorney's letter -- the only question I have in my mind, is that synonmous with the three people named? Mayor: Well,it's a matter of interpretation -- Bob McClure: Well, that's where my confusion is. Mayor: That's what my problem was with it, as well. Ted: Well, wh"t you need then is something inùicating that the stated active participants are those three individuals. Is that what you're looking for, now? Bob McClure: Yeah. Just change that part of it where we're saying as -- referring to the people as depicted or whatever the word is by the attorney's letter, that's the thing that screwed me up. Ted: Oh. Bob McClure: If that can be -- Ted: He want's to eliminate three or four words there after active participants -- Bob McClure: Wiat happens there? Clerk: That we enter into the personnel files of each of the individuals identified as taking an active part in the fire call of September 28th as indicated by the letter from the County Attorney -- Bob McClure: Stop right there -- as indicated by -- that would clear it up, I think. Clerk: Okay, then the sentence finishes: and it's attached memos. So you want to Special City C :n Mi es 27 December 19iu Page Fifty-One Clerk continued . . . delete that whole comment that would say: as indicated by the letter . . . and it's attached memos. You want that deleted? Mayor: Yes. Does the second stand? Clerk: And then it would go on to say: that we place that document from the County Attorney, along with -- Ken: Well then the November 8th and attached memos -- Mayor: Okay? Ted: I don't think she got that. Ken: Hhere we have IIthat document" we will have to name that document since you have taken it out above. Clerk: Okay. Mayor: Does the second still stand? Bob ~lcClure: Still stands. Mayor: Any additional discussion? Please poll the council. Bob I1cClure: Y2S. Ken: Yes. Hary: No. Jerry: Yes. Ted: Yes. Mayor: Motion carried on a four-one vote. I guess that really, at least, for this issue is -- would be closed from the council standpoint here. And the motion is made -- Mary: Are you allo\1ing for comments for the record? Is it your comment for the record regarding the motion? Or may I have an opportunity? Mayor: Ol1, okay. If you've got a comment on the motion, I want to make some statements but please ~o ahead. Mary: My feeling is that the County Attorney's report set out clearly that there's been no malicious intent by the staff nor has personal property without consent been destroyed. The report should sta~d as accepted by the council and the matter should have been dropped after this meeting. The council denies the staff the right to question -- they also deny the citizens the right to question and at that point democracy is dead in Andover. Hayor: Okay, if I could just make one appeal here, both from the staff and from - the fire department and really, from the council, you know, we've got to find some Special City C ,i1 Hi es 27 December 19iv Pabe Fifty-Two !1ayor continued . . . way of getting rid of all of the past and the animosities, the friction or conflicts or whatever word you want to put on it and get both of you working together and, you know, if we've got a full new council here ani if there's soæething or somehow that our future councils can do to make this thing work better or sOilleone's got some suggestions or whatever it is that -- we've got the fire department on the agenda every council meeting, if you find something in your meetings, something's that not going right, please get it on our agenda. If the staff finds something that is not working to their satisfaction or they are having difficulties with it, Pat has got the ability to put on the agenda anything that's of importance to us and let's all try to get this thing resolved and get everybody going down the right road and I guess all going the same direction. I thank everyone for coming a~d wish everybody a Happy New Year. !1ayor: We have two items left. 79, 80, 81 - I need a motion appointing Chairman - Commissioner -- Larry Retzlaff and Ralph Kishel to the Planning & Zoning CommiEsion for ~ three year term expiring 12-31-81. Ted: Do We have to singly or -- !1ayor: They can all be made in one motion. Ken: !1ayor, I would MOVE that Larry Retzlaff be appointed a Planning & Zoning Commission member for a period of three years ending December 31, 1981. !1ayor: Hotion made, is there a second? Ted: Second. !1ayor: Discussion? Poll the council, please. Ken: Yes. Nary: Yes. Jerry: Yes. Ted: Yes. Bob HcClure: Yes. !1ayor: Okay. Motion carried 5-0. Ted: I l!OVE that Ralph Kishel be appointed to the Planning & Zoning Commission for a period of three years ending December 31, 1981. !1ayor: Hotion made, is there a second? Ken: Second. !1ayor: Discussion? Poll the council, please. !1a ry : No. - Jerry: Yes. Special City C oil Mi" "es 27 December 19i~ Page Fifty-Three Ted: Yes. Bob McClure: Yes. Ken: Yes. Mayor: Motion carried on a 4-1 vote. r would be open for a motion to adjourn. Bob McClure: So moved. Ted: Second. Mayor: No discussion? Motion carried 5-0. M~eting adjourned at 10:55 PM. Respectfully submittej, ¿~2:ar> doeft d'Arc J n Bosell, Acting City Council Clerk