HomeMy WebLinkAboutPH June 5, 1978
~ 01 ANDOVER
cmTTINU1';D T'LmLIC '!EARP'G - CEDAR CREST ESTATES/CEDAR RIVER HILL'> ESTATES - JUHE 5, 1978
HINUTES
The ~ontinued Public 1eari~g on the proposed construction of streets and storm sewer iM-
~rovement to serve Cedar Crest Estates and Cedar River Hills Estates was called to order
by Hayor Jerry "Tindschi tl on June 5, 1978, 7:33 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685
r::rosstoVfn Bouleva.rd T:n.7, Anol-:a, Hinnesota.
CouncilpersoTIS nresent: Lachinski, Orttel, Vanderlaan
Gouncilperson abGsnt: HcClure
Also 'Dr-esent: City Attorney, E. ~. Babcock; City Engineer, D. R. Kasma;
Ci ty Clerk, p X. Lindquist; and interested residents
. .
Hr. «esma reported the pro)XJsed reduced project included about 180 feet north of l75th
on Blackfoot cut off on the high point in that direct~ æst on l73rd cut off at Lot 5,
and east on 174th cut off on the corner of lot 2. He showed sketches of the proposed
reduced project, and reviewed the project description with storm sewers and street
construction, the project costs (totaling 1116,400 for storm sewer, storm sewer oversizing,
streets, curbs and gutters), and project financing (both storm sewers and streets assessed
on a front-foota~e basis, costs on an average 220-foot lot to be ~22.60 a front foot with
oversizi~~ costs of the storm sewer to be financed by the City). }T. Kasma also reviewed
the cost fi~ures to the residents if the project was further reduced to 24-foot wide
bituminous surface with bitur.tinous curbs.
Testimony was then open to the public.
Garv 'Thite. :0921 l74th lane - (Lots 9 and 10) - talked to the Majority of the people
involved in the project informing them of the approximate costs proposed. He has a
petition of those in favor of and opposed to the project which he promised he would not
present to the Council until after all facts were presented to allow people to change their
minds. He requested a 10-minute recess to ~ive residents time to determine how mllch it
would cost them for the project and to allow them to change their minds.
Recess at 7:45; reconvene at 7:58 p.m.
Hr. White - turned in the petition and a color-coded map showing those in favor of and
t~ose oDposed to the project. }~. ~~ite stated in talkin~ with the residents, he found
several common concerns. ~irst, the costs are too high for the benefits being received.
He askeò the real estate a~ent he bought his house from for an appraisal on his house with
and without blacktop. Mr. ~~ite read the agent's response which, in essence, stated the
result of the improvement would increase the value from ~l,500 to $2,000. Under this
"Present plan, his cost is going to be ~6,600, so his return on investment is very low.
The next concern expressed was safety -- the increased speed on the blacktop and the blind
curve on 174th could Gonceivably cause a very serious accident. In talking to a couple
~embers of the Anoka ~ounty Sheriff's Department concerning on-street parking, }w. ~~ite
found there are no facts or figures to present, but it was their general consensus that
they do See more accidents on streets where on-street parking is allowed. If the Council
is determined to go through with this project, he sug~ested two alternative methods of
assessment -- divide the total cost of the project among the residents affected regardless
of the lot size so everybody pays the same amount, or assess each by the amount that
actually drains on the road. He stated "You're asking me to buy something I don't want
at a price I can't afford."
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Continued Public Hearing - Cedar Crest Eatates/Cedar River Hills Estates
June 5, 1978
Page 2
Horace Nayo. 4920 Union Avenue S, Minneauolis - owns three lots in this particular
develotJment. He asked for consideration for curved lots as he recently sold Lot 5, on the
curve, to a rela tive. It has the smallest front footage on that curve, 162 feet, but will
be assessed for 255 feet. He felt there has to be a better formula and a more equitable
way to determine assessable front footage to spread it over the entire area. There are
other lar~er lots that will be uaying for less front footage. Mayor Windschitl noted thæ
Lot 5 is the big~est lot in there and the formula tries to equalize it. Most of the lots
are eQualized to 200 feet. He felt the formula is working properly and what Mr. }myo is
sug~estin~ is transferring that assessment to some other property owners.
Pal nh Kishel, 3934 l73rd Lane - (Lot 4, Block 3) - the heavy downpour Friday and Saturday
washed some of the sand off l73rd in his driveway, but he would gladly shovel it out for
what they are proposing to þut on his assessments. His main concern was the shape that
the road has been graded so that the water flows total~y on the graded portion. In rural
roadways, there should be some dissipation of the runoff to the side lots so that Lot 6
doesn't end up with all the water coming dovm from the apparent high point on 173rd. He
felt that if they sh~ped up the roadway and put Class 5 on it, it would alleviate a lot of
the problem. He didn't feel any benefit to his lot would be more than ~1,000. He proposed
that this project be postponed until such a time as a City Engineer/Administrator looked
into a bare-bones situation that would rectify this problem so that it would be more
equitable to all concerned.
(Tim Green. 3973 174th Avenue NW - addressed the City's portion of theoversizing of the
piþe between his lot and the neir,hboring lot. !Ie didn't feel that that pond would ever
need draining. It would be a struggle to get the pipe through where indicated because it
is all woods and was sure it would be behind his neighbor's house. He didn't think it is
feasible to make a ditch 30 to liO feet deep. It has never been a problem with wash fro~
the north. It was his feeling that they scrap that portion of the project that the City
would put in and that the City pay for the storm sewer as a compromise.
Ernie Pletan, 17360 Blackfoot Street 'ëJ - would like to see the project go in because if
we don't get the blacktop, some ha!,hazard attempt will be made like three years ago, and
that turned out to be worse than the way it \'læ before. ~7e really have a problem with the
sand washing down. Even if it has to be the minimum proposal, he \'lould like to see a
~ermanent solution.
Dave Ga"Dn4 17421 Blackfoot Street mr - questioned if the oversizing pipe going east of
TIl~ckfoot would be an open ditch. Hr. KaS:r.1a stated it Vlould be an underground pipe.
There are a lot of unknovms at this time as to what is going to happen to that propßrty.
The uroposal to have a number of ponds in the 4th Addition may not be in the best interests
of the City. ~e're trying to provide for draining the pond dovm to the river with the
TIond being at a fixed elevation. It would always have \'later in it. ITa may find that we
don't need that overflow if the land is developed at 2t acres instead of l-acre lots.
ITe're tryin~ to foresee what is goinß to happen and do what's best in the area.
}~. GaTITI - stated that where the pipe is proposed is the most heavily wooded spot; and if
they dug that through, it would be detrimental to his property. Hr. ~~sma stated they
generally try to put these kinds of easements on property lines. If we can get a place
to go throußh someplace else, we can do that. The pipe would be put in where it would
cause the least damage to him. That wouldn't happen at this time. To require the pipe to
come out of l75th would require that it be deeper yet. Mayor ~ind8chitl noted it has never
been a~reed to by the Council to use that park as-a holding ground.
Discussion between ~x. Kasma and Councilperson Lachinski was on reducing the project
further by putting only a l5-inch pipe to the river, eliminatinß all other piping and
installing two large catch basins in the curve to suck in the water in an attempt to reduce
the project cost of the storm sewer. Honey could also be saved by putting in a 24-foot
bituminous street and bituminous curb. }~. Kasma stated the 24-foot bituminous surface
Continued Public Hearing - Cedar Crest Estates/Cedar River Hills Estates
June .7, 1978
Pa"e 3
is ~9.75, which includes 13 feet of topsoil fro~ the curb to the property line four
inches deep to keep the sand fro~ washing in and also includes a foot of cut all the way
across the right of way to lower the street in case we have to. The common excavation and
the top soil are almost half the cost. Councilperson Lachinski was also looking at a
~aximu~ assessment of 225 feet per lot and the City absorbing the difference to lower the
cost. !,~. Kas~a then estimated theproject would be $15.25 a front foot, which comes to
~343l for a maximum 225-foot lot.
nave Hahn, 17400 Blackfoot Street - asked since everyone a.grees that the road problem on
the corner of 174th and Blackfoot is because of the City accepting the project with the
road coming down and since by doing this project it will save the City dollars for future
maintenance, if the City would pay for the storm sewers and the people pay for 225 feet
of the street costs. Councilperson VanderLaan stated we could go through the City and
cite that over and over again. She reviewed the problems in the Green Acres development
and Auditor's Subdivision 82, and explained that we attempt to go about it in the most
fair way possible and allow people to pay their own way, If we were to begin purchasing
storm sewers for the residents, we would have to adopt the policy throughout the City, and
it would ultimately end up on the general tax levy.
To~ LaBonne, 3866 173rd Lane Ir~ _ doesn't want blacktop ending at his lot. He never goes
the other way around and doesn't think he should be responsible for storm sewers which
aren't affecting hi~ at all. He stated if this is passed, everybody that is affected and
is agaInst it will all get a lawyer and taJœ this to court. There are 20 people against
it and 5 people for it ; that's a majority and it is the Council's responsibility to go
with the majority.
Don Janssen. 3864 l74th Avenue - (Lots 7 and 8) _ there's a real problem there and the
City should feel some obligation to pay for it. He felt Hr. Hahn's point was that there
be some tradinB of dollars. The City use the money that is currently being spent for
~aintaining the proble~ and spend it in another area. He would like to get the problem
resolved, but it is not equitable fro~ a dollar standpoint right now. He didn't under-
stand why the cost didn't drop more by ta?~ng a lot of that storm sewer out and putting
in the large catch basins. Did the City plan to pay that $10,300 overage cost?
Hr. Kasma stated he took out 1/3 of the cost. The 510,300 to be financed for the City
was the entire cost of the pipe going north on Blackfoot plus the difference in oversizing
of the pipe going west to the river. You still need a l5-inch pipe going to the river.
By taking out the pipe, you are also adding two large catch basins which would be some
additional cost there. !Þyor Uindschitl explained that the oversize cost would be
financed by the City and deferred until such time that the Fourth Addition would co~e in;
then the Fourth Addition would be assessed that oversizing cost. !Jr. Kas~a stated if the
City were to finance a portion of the storm sewer costs, the financing would be for what-
ever amount the bond issue sells for and would be assessed as the owners in the area are.
He stated if the project is not ordered, there are still two problems there -- water and
sand. The sand is building up in the roadway and there is no way to control that. He
explained what is happening out there now. If the project is not ordered, fro~ a
~aintenance standpoint a pipe should be run to the river to help the proble~.
Recess at 8:46 P.~.; reconvene at 9 p.m.
Council discussion was on reducing the stor~ sewer to $10,000 or $12,000 and making the
maximum lot size for assessment purposes 200 feet of frontage, which would result in
an assess~ent to residents of ~2,850, with the City's share amounting to 365 feet, $5,200.
D 17538 Blackfoot - (Lot 9) - the way it is proposed, the blacktop gœs through
n'!1 Alber,go.
only half of his lot ending approximately at his driveway. Any value that it may have to
his lot going half way acroSs the frontage would be ~inimal. Did you look at the grade
as to whether that can be changed? !~. Kas~a stated they tried to bring it as far down
as possible; and to get it to his lot line, we'd have to cut two feet off the street. If
the project is ordered, they will look at that again. -
-- - - ,
Continued Public Hearing - Cedar Cre~t Estates/Cedar River Hills Estates
June 5, 1978
Page 4
Mr, LaBonne _ are you sure that Class 5 gravel couldn't be put in with some culverts to
stop the water problem in that area affecting those people? Going down the house by ~æ,
Kishel, it is not graded to drain properly, tæ, Kasma stated it was tried three years
aRa. The problem is even if we put the blacktop in, if we don't put in topsoil to get the
water draining into some kind of containment, it will just wash behind it, \'!here there
is such a steep grade, there is a tremendous problem with washing, Discussion between
}æ, LaBonne and Mr, Kasma was on the problems and possible solutions in the area and on
what was done three years ago,
tæ, Vlhite _ are we talking about a maximum figure that everyone will pay? And what
is the reduced storm sewer cost fi~ure? tæ, Kasma stated the propmsed maximum front
footage is now 200 feet. The cost will depend on the bids received, and that is when the
Council will make the final decision on the project, He reduced the storm sewer from $25,000
to $12,000, which is a maximum figure; but he couldn't say any more than that without
knowing all the exact details. This is bituminous curb; although he felt concrete curb
would be better, He felt a bituminous birm would be acceptable at the top of the slope,
but a 6-inch bituminous curb is needed to contain the water around the corner,
}æ. White - noted it is still four to one opposed to the project,
MOTION by Orttel, Seconded by LachinGki, to close the public portion of the Cedar Crest
Estates/Cedar HillG Estates Public Hearing, Motion carried unanimously.
Council discussion -- Because of the absence of a Councilperson, Mr, Babcock stated if
we are talking about a much lesser area than we were originally, the Council has the right
to lessen the area bY Statute and we started out with a valid petition; therefore a 3/5
vote would be sufficient, If we have changes in the petition, he felt a 4/5 vote would be
needed to order the project, I:ayor Windschitl noted the petition reflects 6 in favor, 20
opposed tothe project,
If this project iG not ordered, ¡'æ, IVisma explained what needed to be done from a mainten-
ance standpoint. The bulk of the sand is settling in the ditch on 174th at this time,
As a minimum mai~tenance project, he would recom~ended a permanent outlet to the river for
water standing on ~~, Pletan's and tæ, Hahn's property; to remove all the sand from the
south side and put gravel on a portion of the street, which could be done in a couple
days by t~. IITaabel; and to put in sam topsoil if there is moneys available, He felt it
could cost up to $5,000 for maintenance on a temporary basis, It has been three years
since any maintenance was done, and work needs to be done to Bet the culverts open. The
problem is the gravel is put on the street, but it is the edges and sand that is washing,
and that can't be controlled uith gravel on the roads,
Councilperson Lachinski felt that there is no one changing their mint on the project even
if it were to cost $2,800 maximum, He felt all this does iG reinforce the idea that we
need a Public Works Department to fix conditions like this uhenever they are warranted,
He's against the project at this point,
Councilperson Vanderlaan stated an unacceptable alternative is doing nothing, The best
alternative is doing what was proposed at the last Public Hearing, She regrets that the
Council did not take action on the project in its entirety because past experience has
shown that in situations such as this, in a year or two the project is proposed again and
very often is then ordered and is always more expensive, The better propaal is the 24-
foot bituminous bir~ surface, although it isn't particularly attractive and does get run
down. The mediocre solution would be to put in Class 5, The two alternatives she would
be in favor of would be the best alternative and the maintenance-type solution, ~hich the
City has set some precedence for in the past as was done on Ward Lake Drive and South
Coon Creek Drive in an attempt to alleviate a problem in a very, very temporary measure,
She implored the Council to reconsider their action and go with either the better or best
solutions to this situation.
Continued Public Hearing - Cedar Crest Estates/Cedar River Hills Estates
June 5, 1978
Page 5
!!OTION by Lachinski, Seconded by Orttel, to ter~inate the storm sewer and street
construction project in Cedar River Hills Estates and Cedar Crest Estates area.
V&T'fu 1ß~f?cib1J.Th'm R'~·~~L.chinski, Orttel, Windschi tl; ;!O-VanderLaan
?·1otion carried.
HOTIOn by Lachinsl<i, Seconded by Orttel, to refer this proble~ back to the Road
Improvement Committee so that they can prioritize this project in with the other projects
that they are looking at doing this year. Discussion: Councilperson Vanderlaan
questioned if this shouldn't be referred to the Aadministrator/Engineer as she didn't feel
the Road Improvement Committee has the expertise to address this. Councilperson
Orttel assu~ed that this and all other matters of co~mittees would be reviewed by this
individual. Cou!1cilperson Lachinski ADDED TO HOTION"- refer to the new City Engineer
and Road Improvement Committee... Second still stands. Motion carried unani~ously.
Skiu Rither - requested that the City send soneone to investigate the hill tomorrow as
silt that has come down the hill as a result of the last rain is such that someone is
going to get stuck. It is so soft you can't even stop at your mailbox now. The Clerk
will take care of this matter,
ImTIO;¡ by Orttel, Seconded by Lachinski, to adjourn. All in favor said aye.
Public Hearing adjourned at 9:33 p.~.
Respectfully submitted,
\\ --<. ¿c
'%v...~~ (~·q/Êc
l~arce la A.. Peach .,
Recording Secretary
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Øt9 01 ANDOVER
- SP.~~IAL CLOqBD !ISETING OF THE CITY com¡CIL - JUNE 5, 1978
MU¡UTES
A q"ecial Closed Heetin~ of the ¡l.ndover City Council was called to order by Mayor Jerry
'~tnd8chitl On June 5, 1078, ~:3~ p.m., at the Andover City Rall, 1~85 Crosstown Boulevard
'~,1, Anoka, !'bnesota, for the purpose of di8cu8sin~ items related to the lawsuit pending
betweeh Winslow Rolasek and the City of Andover.
Councilpersons present: Lachinski, Orttel
0.ouncil~ersons absent: McClure, VanderLaan
Also present: City Attorney, E. p. Babcock; City Clerk, p. K. Lindquist
Attorney Babcock believed it would be possible to make a convincing case in court for a
hi~her per acreage value than what was found by our appraiser; however, he does not suggest
makin~ an offer to settle for a larger amount per acre because the City has done well so
far with respect to this case. Almost all of the matters have been settled for ~l,OOO an
acre and the three Court-appointed Commissioners found essentially in the City's favor.
Pe focused particularly on the Mortenson parcel. The amount that was paid for the acreage
taken was ~388 for .0388 acres, which is an exact ~elation to the ~l,OOO per acre price.
In addition, he was allocated ~46 for a storm sewer easement. There were 94 pines at 15
each, a total of ~470, for a total of ~904. 'Vith respect to the Rolasek parcel, if we tal
the acrea~e involved of ~.8l acres, a~ountinß to ~6,810, add ~175 for the temporary easem'
) covBrin~ 1.75 acres, and use the same basis for compensation for trees as was used in the
t Mortenson case (~02 4-inch trees times ~5 a tree, equaling , ~3,101), you get ~9,995,
w~ich is almost exactly what the ~ity is presently offering, ~lO,OOO. Considered in the
0) Fir. lt~~t of other settlements and what the Commissioners found, it seems that the position
",,, the ~Hy is now takin~ seems reason:ble.
~lo Mr. Babcock has talked with Mr. Rolasek in his office. ~~. Holasek has been made aware
~!Of of the facts just presented to the Council snd realizes his letter to the Council was n
-.:
Mee correct in that re~ard. Mr. Babcock stated Mr. Rolasek then demanded a hi~her compenB8
tion for trees claimin~ 150 of the trees were norway pines of 20 feet or more and weul,
"e, valueò at <¡20 a tree, for 'ì3,00O. He said that some of the oaks were up to 70 years 0
" ~¡
'\n\ and he would value them at '150 apiece, totaling '112,500; and there were 200 other tree
worth about ~lO apiece, for a total of ~2,O00. Mr. Bahcock felt it would be difficul'
chan~e the whole method of valuation with respect to the taking of the parcel at this
N'arce tloint. Tne City has been substantiated thus far and felt the risks involved in the a
Pecor are reasonable and the amount involved is rather substantial. !!r. Rolasek has offeN
settle for '115,000, which is ~5,000 more than the City's offer, but it is going to c
sometnin~ to try the case. ~~. Babcock again stated that a good lawyer could probab
present a stron~ case for a hi~her valuation than $1,000 an acre if you could consic
zonin~ and consider what SOme 5-acre parcels are bringing for residential purposes.
also were a couple of parcels where the City paid considerably more for trees. Row
t~e parcel immediately to the north of Mr. Holasek was not compensated for trees at
Discussion was on the land }~. Holasek o~~s, the amount of it which could actually
divided into residential buildable parcels and the City's offer on the temporary e
Councilnersons Orttel and Lachinski both felt they didn't want to argue the per-ae
value of t~e land; Councilperson Lachinski felt we could find some justification '
for trees. ~he ~lerk stated that Bob Muscovitz had inspected the trees and noted
several of the oak trees were diseased.
}\r. Babcock read 11:1". Holasek's letter to him dated June 2 saying that the main t¡
with Mr. Allen's appraisal is that he did not appraise the land at its highest a
use re~ardless of its present value as required under the laws of eminent domaiv
Also, if the City settles for his offer Of '115,000, it would amount to a little