HomeMy WebLinkAboutSP July 27, 1977
CITY of ANDOVER
SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL/PLANNING AND ZONING COMlIISSION MEETING
JULY 27, 1977
MINUTES
A Special !1eeting of the Andover City Council and the Planning and Zoning Commission was
called to order by Mayor Windschitl at 7:30 p,m" at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown
Boulevard In1, Anoka, Minnesota,
Councilpersons present: Lachinsk1, McClure, Orttel, VanderLaan
Commissioners present: Bruns, Elling, Chairman Jacobson, Johanson, Retzlaff
Commissioners absent: Bosell, Kishel
Also present: City Attorney, William G, Hawkins; TKDA Consulting Engineer,
D, K, Kasma; and City Clerk, P, K, Lindquist
Northwoods/Red Oaks Discussion
Mayor Windschitl reviewed what had happened at the Coon Creek Watershed Board meeting
on Monday night, July 25, explaining that little was resolved at that meeting with regard
to allowing the !lorthwoods area to drain into Coon Creek, Since then, Attorney Hawkins
has talked with the Watershed Attorney and has come to a workable agreement on this
situation, The Coon Creek Watershed is gOing to publicize the Public Hearing to be held
the end of August, and Hr, Hawkins has received assurance that it will then be ordered
in our favor. The only other alternative \~have is, if for some reason they deny it, to
commence a lawsuit based on.théir entire proceedings being arbitrary,
!~, Kasma, TKDA Consulting Engineer, stated we are in a position to award the bids for
Northwoods and Red Oaks tonight, !~, Stocmvell talked with the Watershed Engineer today
and was assured by him that he would recommend approval to the Coon Creek Watershed Board
for the Northwoods Addition based on our Comprehensive Storm Drainage Plan, A letter
was received from the Anoka County Health Department concerning the pondëadjacent to the
landfill in Red Oaks, They had little concern of the affects of that pond but did request
that no dredging, of the pond be undertaken since this may cause some change in the
natural ~round water flow; and any increase in the water table due to the project may
require, at a later date, that an outlet for the pond be provided, I~, Kasma explained
that if an outlet would have to be provided, the logical way would be to go to the creek,
This facility was designed for a lOO-year storm; and knowing the ground water table in
wet years, we have allowed adequate capacity for that, lIe saw no reason in the future
for there to be any pumping of any of the ponds, I~, Kasma also stated that ultimately
it is planned fOr some excavation of the pond on the side away from the landfill, but
not dredging, I, would just be widened out to square it up to provide more surface area,
and the PCA has no problem with that, !~, Kasma further stated they have talked with
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the Minnesota De~artment of Health who has promised a letter to the same effect, By
approving bids tonight, a week's progress would be added to the project as opposed to
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waiting to approve bids next week, It is important to get started as soon as possible,
Attorney Hawkins ¡stated the indication he got from the Watershed Attorney was that they
have to hold thi~ Public Hearing under their Statute of a City petitioning to drain into
a creek, Their Attorney assured !~, Hawkins that he didn't feel there would be any
problem with thed anproving it, and that he would advise the Watershed Board that to turn
us down would be !arbttrary and capricious and that Andover could then commence a lawsuit
against them, !~, hawkins stated that actual formal approval would not come until
August 22, but in speaking with their Attorney and their Engineer, there apprently is
not going to be a problem, and from all indications it is virtually certain it will be
Special City Council/Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
July 27, 1977 - !1inutes
Pa~e 2
(Northwoods/Red Oaks Discussion, Continued)
ap~roved.on the 22nd, Because of this, r~, Hawkins felt that bids on this project could
be awarded now. Iw, Hawkins also stated, according to the Statute, once the Watershed
Board impose a charr,e, they also can impose a charge to the same extent of the original
assessment for maintenance, repair, etc., in Andover's case, up to $300,
Comments from Councilpersons I!cClure and VanderLaan, and !1s, Lindquist were that the
residents are concerned about what the Council is doing with the project, They want it
done as soon as þossible since it has been ordered, fearing if the project is postponed
until next year the costs will rise, No calls have been received from residents in
opposition. to the project,
MOTION by Lachinski, Seconded by Orttel, introducing a Resolution awarding contract to
Forest Lake Contractin~, Inc., for the Improvement of Streets and Storm Sewers in the
Ped Oaks and Northwoods Additions (See Resolution R89-7)
VOTE O!! HOTIO!!: YES-Lachinski, Orttel, VanderLaan, Windschitl; PRESÐfT-HcClure, as he
is a resident of Red Oaks and is directly affected by the project,
!lotion carried,
Mr, Hawkins informed the Council he is investigating the cost of the possibility of
having him and the bonding attorney in his firm prepare the prospectus, the no tic e, and
open the bids for the bonds necessary for financing this project, It was his feeling
that he could handle these routine improvement project issues for less money than the
fiscal agent could and guaranteed the cost would not exceed the minimum charge of the
fiscal ap;ent, He asked the Council to consider him and the bonding attorney to get
involved in these things, Attorney Hawkins will present more precise figures on this
and a statement that it will not exceed the minimum charge imposed by the fiscal agent
at the next Council meeting.
Final Systems Statement Discussion
The Council andlthe Commission discussed the Hetropolitan System Statement for the City
of Andover. The questions raised and comments made were:
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Population Figures - !Tow the population is split about 50/50 between the rural and urban
areas in the City, with approximately 4,000 people in the rural area, The revised
population figures for 1990 indicate 12,000 people in Andover, indicating approximately
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11,000 people living in the sewered area, The issue being skirted is in terms of how
they break dovm/as to where they live in the City, There seems to be a discrepancy here
since there are already 4,000 people in the rural area now and they are proposing there
be only 1,000 i~ the year 1990, Is this an error or done on purpose linked to the
possibility of an airport in the area? The Clerk stated Hetro Council population figures
seem to be based on maps done in 1975, and since then at least 10 plats have been approved
in the rural area.
Discussion was ds to why no wet industry is anticipated in Andover. Ultimate sewage flow
capacity is 30,000 connections, and there should be nothing to re3trict us from having
that capacity, 1
Housin~ - Provi ing low cost housing was discussed, Guidelines should be forthcoming
regarding the definition of high-density housing and moderate cost housing, Alternatives
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to simply reducing the size Of the lot to provide moderate cost housing are mobile
homes and tovmhouses. There is probably going to be a lot of pressure to reduce the lot
sizes in the sewerad area. The Hetropolitàn Council's idea of 0 moderate cost home is
not necessarily one to lower the cost of the home but qualifying for subsidies, The
discussion referred to the implementation of the plan once it is adopted,
Special City Council/Planning and Zoning Commission Heeting
July 27, 1977 - Hinutes
Page 3
(Final Systems Statement Discussion, Continued)
Transportation, Airport - If an airport were to be put in Andover, the highway trans-
portation system in the Systems Statement would be completely inadecµate, Commissioner
Jacobson stated the staff at the Board of Physical Development expected the new data
coming in to show that no airport would be needed at least until 1990 or 2000; therefore,
it was their feeling that the whole airport issue out here would be dropped, Commissioner
Jacobson also stated that Sandy Dean at the Metro Council and the Chairman of the Airports
Commission both had the feeling that this was the case -- that new data will show that
the north airport search area will not be needed and it will be dropped, Commissioner
Jacobson interpreted the procedure to mean that if the City disagrees with what is vœitten
on the Systems Statement, the best thing to do is a stipulation be entered that after
the Hearing is held, if the airport is deleted, the Systems Statement will be good except
for the airports portion, If the airport stays in, the stipulation allows us to go back
and change everything that relates to the airport,
Councilperson Lachinski questioned the interpretation of the Statement on page 15 relating
to information forwarded to us before January 1, 1978, being reflected in our Comprehensi~
Plan -- does this leave us with an airport search area or not? Commissioner Jacobson
interpreted that to mean if information is not provided before that date as the law
provid~s, we do not have to plan for the airport,
lYì~ ,y-'tt,,;.' ;:!.c-.,.,-1';/ ,J.-
Genéral)consens¡i&'was this document is not ta~~ng into an account the airport search site;
and if the site would not be used, the Systems Statement would be accurate, It seems
their plan for the rural area is minimal development, so it wouldn't matter whether the
airport is put there -- that shouldn't change our plans any, But if they do put the
airport in, just about everything in the Systems Statement will need to be changed, It
is their respons,ibility to get the information to the City by January 1, 1978, It would
be in our interest to do what they recommend so we would be able to express the City's
position on this issue,
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Hap on page 14 - has a significant number of érróš'on it (Prairie Road, Crosstown as a
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ma~or street, Hanson, County Poad 7), It is not consistent with the County's plan,
The City Clerk vms directed to write a letter to TKDA asking them, in working with
Anoka County, to; provide the Hetropolitan Council with the most current map for their
functional classifications,
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Page 13, Hetropolitan Bus Poute map - part of Andover is taxed by the lIetropolitan Transit
Commission, This issue was addressed previously saying that even though residents of
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Andover are not directly serviced, they get indirect benefit by having fewer cars on
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the roads they drive on, It takes a bill from the State Legis~ature to exempt the
Andover residents from this tax,
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Page 16 - Round rake is still designated as a seaplane operation, We were told that this
issue is going tD be reviewed by the I~C and will be referred to the Hinnesota Department
of Transportatioh, The Clerk was directed to talk with Lyle Bradley who is familiar with
the situation, ahd/or refer it to the Park Board and see that a letter stating our
objections to bel sent to the Hinnesota Department of Transportation and to Sandy Dean,
The City Clerk WaS directed to talk with and I'œi te to Sandy Dean dealing with the
discrepancy in the rural population figures and the question of wet industry in the
City, hopefully, I to receive an aswer before Tuesday night's Council meeting, The Council
can then decide whether to ask for a Hearing on these items or on just the airport issue
by itself, I
Special City Council/Planning and Zoning Commission Heeting
July 27, 1977 - Hinutes
Page h
(Final Syste~s State~ent Discussion, Continued)
A suggestion was the City should ask for the stipulation, but at the same time file our
objection about the airport VQth the Land Use Advisory Committee, In case the
Hetro Coûncil would not grant that stipulation, Andover would have so~ething to fall back
on, In other words, file for the Hearing pending approval of this subsequent hearing,
The Clerk was directed to ask them if we can have 11 commitment from the I!etropolitan
Council itself stating we are eligible for this additional Hearing if the airport issue
is continued,
Councilperson VanderLaan stated before we formally file for a Reconciliation Hearing, the
City Council needs to address the issue of the airport in more detail to define those
issues rer,arding the airþort issue.
Planntn¡;; Consultant Discussion
Commissioner Jacohson explained that the P & Z interviewed a number of people resulting
in a motion recommending Bernard Steffan be used by the City Council if, and only if,
they feel a conflict exists in the Syste~s State~ent and felt so~e expertise would be
needed to reconcile it with the Hetropolitan Council, He would not be a planner after
the Syste~s State~ent is finalized, The P & Z is looldng at three other Planning
Consultants at the present time for the implementation of the Final Systems State~ent
to take over January 1, 1978,
Councilperson Lachinsr~ felt there would be additional conflicts during the implementation
of that Final Systems Statement which !fr, Steffans would help the City reconcile with
the Hetropolitan Council,
Bernard Steffan stated, in"listening to the discussion on the Systems Statement, he felt
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the issues had been properly defined and didn't feel there would be any great problem
in getting the~ resolved YQth the !Ietropolitan Council, He advised that since the
co~munity wants the airport question re~oved from the planning process, that the City
be sure to follow the procedure recommended in the Land Use Planning Act for reconciliation
tightly enough s~ the City is protected and can raise the issue if they don't take it
out or do not act promptly enough -- protected against the airport issue just being
ignored come JanJary, He felt the major issue the City of Andover has is the development
of the rural area -- the lot sizes and the amount of development in that rural area, To
be sure the Citylprotects itself against them delaying that decision is the one serious
thing between now ¡and the date we need to reply on the Final Systems Statement, On the
population figures, the City needs to be protected against a change occurring without an
opportunity to b~ heard (population figures being redistributed as other communities
challenge their Systems Statements), Hr, Steffan stated they have not planned this
community for an 'airport and there is an inconsistency on the Systems Statement by leaving
the airport in i~, He believes there are needs for systematically going about the
process that the :City faces over the next three years, He suggested the City take what
it has done and ~et ~olicies resol~, then decide whether the City has the facilities
to do the Comprehensive Plan or whether it wants to hire someone to do it, It was that
kind of service !.<r, Steffans had in mind when he proposed the ~4,000 figure; he felt the
City didn't have ~4,OOO worth of need right now in its reconciliation, He saw his role
as an expediter'i an ad~inistrative sense to get the planning process going and being,
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in a sense, a spefial purpose attorney for the planning process,
Hr, Steffan explained that the City of Ramsey has 10 acreS in the rural area, 2t in the
transit area, andl 10,000 square feet in the urban area vdth a density of 8 to 15 in terms
of multiples, The 10-acre area has a disclaimer in it that this is what they are willing
to accept temporarily pending a review of what happens in the surrounding communities,
In nracticality the land in the rural area that is affected by the 10-acre lots is
r~latively small, He personally did not believe that the agree~ent with 10 acres would
hold, ~~, Steffan started working with the Township of Ramsey and worked with the Council
Special City Council/Planning and Zoning Commission Heeting
July 27, 1977 - Hinutes
Page .~
(Planning Consultant Discussion, Continued)
in setting policy about the development of the City, He was part of their planning process
but not as a planner and has been doing sor.1e Vlork with the I!etropolitan Council on Ramseyl3
Comprehensive Plan, Ramsey is planning their Community in three different stages
beginning with the urban area, I~, Steffan, in conjunction with the others in the City,
took the planning effort that's been done, stated what needed to be done to comply at
this time, and stated how it was to be done, He felt he would operate as a go-between
between a planning expertise and the general concerns of the community -- an expediter
to be sure the planner does what needs to be done and to be sure the Council makes the
necessary decisions when they need to be made, It's an administrative role to make sure
the work is done_
lfuyor Windschitl felt it was the Council and the Planning and Zoning Commission's
obligation to layout policy, changes, and directions to the Plan ahead of hiring any
nlanner, 11r, Steffan agreed this was the responsibility of the Council, He felt he would
act in a generalist role, one who knows enough about the processes to be able to talk
to all the specialists and say this looks like the way to solve the problem,
Commissioner Jacobson originally envisioned J~, Steffan's role of reconciling the Final
Systems Statement with Metro Council should we have some problems with it, But there is
a point in that while the planner is working to implement theSystems Statement and the
!!etro Council disagrees with it, he would be the one to deal vdth the reconciliation of
the differences,
Councilperson VanderLaan stated the administrative makeup of Ramsey and Andover is
essentially different in that Andover's City Clerk has the administrative power necessary
to see that everything gets done, She questioned if we actually need someone to administrate
what is going on in the City as we have competent staff at this point, The situation
between Ramsey and Andover is quite differcnt in that the advent of an administrative
consultant in addition to City staff and in addition to a City Attorney and a City
En,ineer is quite different than ~hat Ramsey's situation was when I~, Steffan was hired,
ITe could make sure we've legally covered all bases at this time by our City Attorney,
Councilperson VanderLaan also felt that by hiring I~, Steffan at this time, the City
\1ould not be spending the monies coming from the !·!etropoli tan Council vdsely, \'Ie can save
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money by hiring a planner to \1ork \71th the P & Z to interpret what is needed in the
Comprehensive Plan \1ith regard to the L3nd Use Planning Act,
Councilperson Or~tel felt he wanted the airport issue resolved before entering into a
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planning agreement \1ith anyone, If we don't have a major problem on our Systems Statement,
the question of hiring !~, Steffan ~ould not be necessary until sometime in the future,
probably about 61 months, He felt we probably \1ill have Some problems later on, but
we should make sure we have problems, then consider this matter, Councilperson Orttel
also felt that since there are some questions which, hopefully, the Clerk vdll have
ans~ered by the next meeting on the population figures, the Hearing for the airport, etc"
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this discussion shoúld be continued until those questions are answered,
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Co~~isGioner Bruns felt we need to address ourselves to eliminatin~ the airport site.
He explained thclP & Z felt one person wouldn't be both a planner and a liason consultant,
so \1e ~uuld hire one of each, The position of the administrative consultant was never
discussed, The ,¡ecommendation to the Council was on the premise that he would play an
advocacy role for our City in terms of any conflicts we have vdth the Systems Statement,
Commissioner Brurts felt ~e've indicated tonight that we do have a conflict with the
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airport, and we should address ourselves to that. Mayor \'Iindschitl looked at the air-
port issue now as a procedural problem, Commissioner Bruns felt we have a person here
Srecial City Council/Planning and Zoning Com!Oission Heeting
July 27, 1977 - Hinutes
PaGe 6
(Planning Consultant Discussion, Continued)
who is f'''''iliar 'IIi th the proc edures and knows his way around the Hetro Council, tha t it
would be adeguatèly representative of our Community to hire I~, Steffan on that basis,
Councilrerson Lachinski felt we should begin our planning now, If we determine and
substantiate what we want to do by passing appropriate Ordinances, then when the Metro
Council disagrees, we TIill have all the data supporting our position, He felt the
Syste~s Statement is inconsistent as all statements in there relate to not having an
airport in the City and yet the airport is still being proposed, This is a complex
issue, and he felt that we are goin~ to noed some legal advice on this matter and I~,
Steffan See,"s to have the lias on capability"with the Hetropolitan Council that we need
to resolve these proble,"s with them,
I~, Steffan stated the issue here is to get what needs to be done done, not to deal with
whose right it is, He didn't feel the differenceD beb'¡een Andover and Ramsey V{ere
quite as they were stated and said there is a need to decide on some basic compromises
and policies, a format for the Planning Co~~ission to work in, and proceed, The staff
you use to do that is not nearly as important as deciding to do it,
Co,"",issioner Jacobson explained that if there is any Jdnd of !Oistake in the Final Syste!Os
Statement, it has to be brought to their attention along with our objection or we loose
the right to change it, It needs to be filed because it takes official action to change
or correct it.
Co!Omissioner TIetzlaff stated that any procedural questions we have now will be addressed
to 1,~, Hawkins who would be able to advise us on anything regarding the Syste!Os
Statement, The Council has to make sure the City is safe¡;uarded,
The matter uan carried over until the Tuesday, August 2, Regular Council Heating.
H0TI01T by HcClure, Seconded by VanderLaan, to adjourn, Hotion carried unani,"ously,
Heetin?, adjourned at 10:21 P,,",
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Respectfully sub!Oitted,
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!,~:,.cella A, Peac~
Reoording Secretary , -
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