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HomeMy WebLinkAboutNovember 13, 1984 ~ 01 ANDOVER REGULAR PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING NOVEMBER 13, 1984 AGENDA Call to order - 7:30 P.M. Approval of Minutes l. Comm. #10-84-6 John Imre Special Use Permit Public Hearing 2. Comm. #10-84-7 South Coon Creek Drive Rezoning Public Hearing 3. Comm. #10-84-8 Allen M. Palo Variance 4. Comm. #10-84-9 John Welsch Variance 5. Comm. #10-84-10 John Thomsen Special Use Permit Public Hearing ~ ~ ANDOVER REGULAR PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING NOVEMBER 13, 1984 MINUTES The regularly scheduled Andover Planning and Zoning Commission meeting was called to order by Charrman Don Spotts at 7:30 P.M., Tuesday, November 13,1984 at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard N.W., Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners Present: Commissoners Absent: Also Present: Bosell; Perry; Jacobson; Jovanovich Ape 1;' Rogers City Engineer, James Schrantz; City Building Official, Dave Almgren; John Imre; Allen Palo; John Welsch; John Thomsen; others Approval of Minutes October 23, 1984 MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Jovanovich to approve the minutes of October 23, 1984 as written. Motion carried on a 4 yes, 1 present (Perry) vote. John Imre Special Use Permit Public Hearing (Comm. #10-84-6) Mark Kiperstin, attorney representing John Imre - noted that Mr. Imre has applied for a Special Use Permit to build a building to sell and store new and used auto parts. On October 23rd, Mr. Mark Lindell, the architect working with Mr. Imre, explained to the Commission what type of building was being proposed. Mark Lindell - noted that between the existing building and the new one, there is a 10 foot fence and a 10 foot gate. On the site plan a larger parking area has been indiciated. Mr. Lindell then showed the Planning Commissioners pictures of similar buildings. He also noted that Mr. Imre's building will be similar to the ones that Mr. Mistelske and Anoka Auto have put up. Chairman Spotts asked if any of the Planning Commissioners"had any current information on the fencing requirements. Commissioner Bosell noted that on the Mistelske property, the City Council would not allow that property to be fenced at all so that there would not be any cars hidden behind it. Mr. Lindell noted that he put the fence in for security reasons. Mr. Spotts stated that this application is for a different use than the one the Planning Commission dealt with on October 23rd. That one was for an auto reduction yard in addition to the sale and storage of auto parts. This one is simply for the sale and storage of new and used auto parts. Something has to be done with the previous application. MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Bosell that Item #7 on the October 23, 1984 agenda, which was moved to tonight's meeting, be withdrawn and is no longer an issue. Motion carried unanimously. 2hairman Spotts opened the public hearing on the current application. Commissioner Bosell asked the building official about the fence. Mr. Almgren stated that if it's a solid fence, he didn't think the Council would go for it. Regular Planning Commission Meeting November 13, 1984 - Minutes Page 2 (Imre Special Use Permit, Cont.) Commissioner Jacobson noted that under Ordinance 8, new parking lot will have to be hard surfaced. Mr. ordinance that the parking lot has to be dustless. to be 'sealed and approved by the building official. MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Bosell to close the public hearing. Motion carried unanimously. Section 8.08, Parking Requirements, the Lindell noted that he only read in the Commissioner Jacobson stated that it has MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Bosell that the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council approval of a Special Use Permit for John Imre at 1714 Bunker Lake Boulevard (legal description: East one-half of Lot 3, Block 1, Pankonin Addition, Anoka County) to construct a 3,000 square foot cold storage warehouse for the sale and storage of new and used auto parts. This request is subject to the following: 1) A suitable parking lot, as required under Ordinance 8, Section 8.08, be constructed; 2) A see-through fence be constructed as a security device. Approval is recommended for the following reasons: 1) The request under Ordinance 8, Section 7.03 is in conformance with the Comprehensive Plan. 2) It wil not be injurious to the health, safety or general welfare of the residents of the Community. A public hearing was held and there was no opposition. Motion carried unanimously. This will go to the City Council on December 4, 1984. South Coon Creek Drive Rezoning Public Hearing (Comm. #10-84-7) Chairman Spotts opened the public hearing. City Engineer Jim Schrantz noted that prior to the Comprehensive Plan, the area in question was zoned R-l. The City Council felt that they could serve the property with sanitary sewer. In the Comprehensive Plan process they included that area in the Metropolitan Urban Service Area and then the City changed the zoning to R-4, which means that it is small lot zoning. In the last year, the city has discussed blacktopping South Coon Creek Drive. In that process the city felt that the westerly portion of South Coon Creek Drive could be served with sewer. The property owners were contacted to see how many driveways they wanted or could have. The problem the city is having is that the property is zoned R-4 but it can't be served by sanitary sewer without the installation of a lift station. The Council felt that the zoning should be more appropriate. Other ways were looked at to see how that area could be served by sewer. Mr. Schrantz also noted that the land in question is in the 1990 plan for sewer. Pam Gharabally, 4820 Thomas Avenue South - asked if the property is plattable if the zoning 's left at R-4. Mr. Schrantz noted that it would be with each lot having 165 feet of frontage. Chairman Spotts asked what the cost of a lift station would be. Mr. Schrantz noted that the cost of the lift station is not the only concern, but the maintenance of it. Regular Planning Commission Meeting November 13, 1984 - Minutes Page 3 ~South Coon Creek Drive Rezoning, Cont.) Dionicio Borja - noted that according to City Administrator there are three property owners in the subject area that are in favor of changing the zoning to R-l. He also noted that in 1975 T,K.D.A. did a storm sewer study in that area and he would like to have a copy of it to study. The basic reason for this rezoning is so the city doesn't have to install a lift station. He stated that he has worked for a city for a long time and they have 25 lift stations; he doesn't know of a city that doesn't have a lift station. He also noted that three years ago, this area was changed from R-l to R-4 and he asked what is going on. Mr. Borja stated that it would cost approximately $100,000 for a lift station. Using the figure of 13,400 square feet for R-4 means that you could make three units per acre if developing. Applying the three units to 440 acres comes out to 1320 units, which is a big development. Using $10,000 for maintenance of the lift station and dividing that cost by the 1320 units comes out to $7.70 per unit. Since Mr. Borja owns 20 acres, he figured that with R-4 zoning he could get 60 lots and with R-l zoning he could only get 8 lots. He asked that this item be tabled until a big developer comes in with a plan for subdividing the area in question. Commissioner Bosell noted that according to the wetlands map, most of Mr. Borja's 20 acres are wetlands. The potential to develop that piece of property does not exist because of the conditions of the land. She also noted that a great deal of the 440 acres involved is wetlands. Monico Anchetta, 2663 South Coon Creek Drive - stated that he would like the R-4 zoning to remain; he is against the rezoning. Commissioner Jacobson asked Ms. Gharabally if she is for or against the rezoning. Ms. Gharabally noted that she is against it. Mrs. Lois Spadgenske, 2934 South Coon Creek Drive - asked if a person could sell crops on the property if it is zoned R-l. She was told that you could. Jim Schrantz stated that we need to know if the neighborhood wants it to be R-4. It looks like they believe in R-l. The Fields Addition is R-l (2! acre lots). On one hand the city is saying that they can be served with sewer and on the other hand, the people are platting 2! acre lots. Commissioner Bosell noted that Ordinance 10C requires that properties lacking municipal sanitary sewer that are in the MUSA, must be developed at 39,000 square feet with 165 feet at the building setback line. The preliminary plat must show a resubdivision plan for when sewer becomes available. City Engineer Schrantz noted that this property is not in the Metropolitan Urban Service Area. Commissioner Jacobson noted that of all the people who were notified of the public hearing, only three are here to state their objections. He stated that he doesn't like to see zoning changes every couple of years. Commissioner Bosell asked if it would be proper to have the city engineer check to see how much of the property involved is developable at either R-4 or R-l. Jmmissioner Jacobson didn't feel that made any difference if the city doesn't want to build a 1 ift station. Mrs. Spadgensek noted that there are people in the area now who are in violation of the R-4 Regular Planning Commission Meeting November 13, 1984 - Minutes Page 4 (South Coon Creek Drive Rezoning, Cont.) zoning now because they are selling eggs and strawberries and some of them have horses. MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Perry to close the public hearing. Motion carried. Commissioner Jacobson questioned the legal description that is on the public hearing notice, noting that it doesn't match what is being proposed for rezoning. Commissioner Bosell felt that this item should be continued as Mr. Borja wants to study the report done by T.K.D.A. and the City Engineer should do some research on the MUSA line. MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Jovanovich to move this matter to the next meeting to enable the City Engineer to gather the information requested. Motion carried unanimously. This will be on the November 27th Planning Commission agenda. Allen M. Palo Variance (Comm. #10-84-8) Allen Palo, 16608 Ward Lake Drive - stated that his son owns a one acre parcel and he would like to erect a pole building on his property. One acre is not sufficient for this type of building so he would like to add 4.17 acres from his land to the one acre. Commissioner Jacobson asked who owns the property that is involved. Mr. Palo noted that Mark and Juanita Palo own the one acre lot and he owns the other larger parcel. Commissioner Bosell noted that this is covered under Ordinance lOB, Section 14.01, Subsection 3. MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Bosell that the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Commission recommend to the City Council approval of a variance requested by Allen M. Palo of 16608 Ward Lake Drive to add 4.17 acres to an existing one acre lot owned by Mark and Juanita Palo at 16642 Ward Lake Drive. The reason for the variance is to make a 5.17 acre lot in order to build a storage shed on the lot. The request is pursuant to Ordinance 8, Section 5.04, varying from Ordinance lOB, Section 14.01, Subsection 3. Reasons for approval are: 1) There is no reason not to grant this variance; 2) It is in conformance with the Comprehensive Plan; 3) There was no opposition to the variance. Motion carried unanimously. This will go to the City Council on December 4, 1984. John Welsch Variance (Comm. #10-84-9) John Welsch appeared for this item. It was noted that he wishes to combine two lots in Cedar Crest Estates in order to build a house; however, when the two lots are combined they will only contain 36,000 square feet. 39,000 square feet are required for a building site. Chairman Spotts asked if there are houses on both sides of these lots. Mr. Welsch noted that there are. )ave Almgren stated that some of the lots in Cedar Crest are unbuildable and have gone tax forfeit because people bought them and then were unable to build on them. Commissioner Bosell asked if it would not be better if these lots were combined and built on. Dave Almgren stated it would be better and then they will get back on the tax rolls. Regular Planning Commission Meeting November 13, 1984 - Minutes Page 5 (John Welsch Variance, Cont.) MOTION by Perry, seconded by Jacobson that the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council approval of a variance requested by John Welsch for the property described as Lots 8 and 9, Block 1, Cedar Crest Estates to combine the two lots into one. The combination of the two lots will create a lot of 36,000 square feet which is 3,000 square feet less than the minimum requirement. Discussion at the Planning Commission meeting indicated that by combining the two lots, we will be improving the area and creating a lot that will be taxable. The variance is pursuant to Ordinance 10C, Section 9.06 which requires 39,000 square feet and is allowed by Ordinance 10, Section 17.01. Motion carried unanimously. This will go to the City Council on December 4, 1984. Recess 9:00 - Reconvene 9:15 John Thomsen Special Use Permit Public Hearing (Comm. #10-84-10) Chairman Spotts opened the public hearing. John Thomsen, 3526 Aldrich Circle, Anoka - noted that they are proposing a cluster type housing development on the corner of 144th Avenue and Round Lake Boulevard. The housing will be developed along 144th and back off the area of Round Lake Boulevard leaving the rest of the space as an open common area. The pond will not be changed; however, it will be cleaned up. It is designed as an association of the 26 families that will be living there. Chairman Spotts asked if there will be a double garage for each unit. Mr. Thomsen noted there will be and that they will have more than adequate space for the off street parking requirement. Chairman Spotts asked what the square footage will be of each unit. Mr. Thomsen stated the units will have 912 square feet of finished area with an unfinished area of 400 square feet. Don Jacobson stated that this Special Use Permit is for a Planned Unit Development not to discuss the plat. If it's granted by the City Council then the developer comes back with the preliminary plat. Discussion tonight should only be on whether or not to approve the Special Use Permit. Wayne Wahlberg, 14349 Vintage Street N.W. - noted that one of his main concerns is whether these will be rental units. He is also concerned about the maintenance of the units and the traffic situation. He asked how there could be 26 units on that small piece of land. Commissioner Jacobson noted that there is nothing in the city ordinances that says a person cannot rent out his house. John Lawrence, 14516 Round Lake Boulevard - asked how Round Lake Boulevard is going to handle the traffic. He stated that we have had deaths on that road and we're going to have more deaths. In the morning the traffic is very heavy now. He felt that if the speed limit is lowered to 30 MPH it might help the situation. Brad Shabo, 14359 Vintage Street NW. - stated that he is more concerned about the traffic after dark. It's very dangerous to try to make a left hand turn onto 144th Avenue because the people behind you don't want to slow down. He is also concerned with what the buildings Regular Planning Commission Meeting November 13, 1984 - Minutes Page 6 (Thomsen Special Use Permit, Cont.) are going to look like. He felt that it would be an eyesore and is against it. John Berry, 14401 Underclift Street N.W. - stated that his property backs up to this property. He noted that their area is blessed with no parks. Mr. Thomsen has said that this is designed for families of 2.6 people. Overall, the plan looks decent but he is concerned with the number of children who will be in the area. He stated that he personally will put up a 10 foot privacy fence to keep the children out of his yard. The traffic has to be the biggest concern. He stated that he is not totally against the proposal, but some of these things should be looked into. Gary Smith, building a house at 3635 - 145th Avenue - felt that because of the pond in the area, there should be some kind of park where the children can play. Commissioner Jacobson asked Mr. Thomsen if he is the fee owner of the property and if he is considering these as single family dwellings. Mr. Thomsen noted that he is the fee owner and they are single family dwellings. He also noted that he cannot afford to hold onto this property any longer without developing it. The units will be pre-sold before they are built. Commissioner Jacobson asked if this parcel can be served with sanitary sewer and water. City Engineer Schrantz noted that it can be. Dave Almgren noted that the property can be developed to 3.3 to 6.2 units per acre. If you take the net acreage you have 2.2 acres, which brings you up to 12 units per acre. You have to use some of the gross but you can't use the pond area. Some credit would have to be given for that. Brad Shabo asked what Mr. Thomsen is going to to with the storm sewer as it is very high. Mr. Thomsen noted that if the pond raises 9" it will run into Round Lake. Mrs. Glen Sipe, 14462 Round Lake Boulevard - asked where the water from the lake will go if it gets too high. City Engineer Schrantz noted that it will drain to the Northwest and to the Southwest. Holly Stephens, 14348 Underclift Street N.W. - asked if they are guaranteed these will be townhouses if the special use permit is granted. Chairman Spotts stated yes. Mr. Thomsen noted that there would be more protection for the public if these are townhouses governed by an association than if they were single family houses. The people will not be allowed to paint them purple or some other strange color, snow removal is done by the association and lawn maintenance is taken care of. Commissioner Perry noted that the Comprehensive Plan says for that area that County Road 9 is one of the highest volume streets in the city and one of the most dangerous. As far as the development, this is included in the Metropolitan Service Area. One thing for that area is diversity of housing styles. PUDs are mentioned as being desirable for that area. She felt that this concept is appropriate for that area. '1r. Thomsen noted that he has talked to the County about this and the one issue that they ,lave is the one exit onto Round Lake Boulevard. The county doesn't want it, but the Fire Department does. Councilman Elling noted that the city has referred the speed problem to the county and the Regular Planning Commission Meeting November 13, 1984 - Minutes Page 7 (Thomsen Special Use Permit, Cont.) state but it is a lengthy process. City Engineer Schrantz noted that under density zoning using 6.6 acres, he would be allowed 20 units, If you use 5 acres, then he would be allowed 15 units. Mr. Thomsen noted that when they first came in with this proposal, they were given the figure of 32-34 units that could be built. Because of the pond, it had to be changed. They tried for 28 units, but they didn't fit so they went to 26 units. MOTION by Perry, seconded by Jovanovich to close the public hearing. Motion carried unanimously. Commissioner Jacobson noted that most Special Use Permits have an annual review; however, on something like this, you can't do that. Because of that, the Planning Commission has to be very careful. We would have at least a 30 year commitment. He explained that while he agrees townhouses are the best use of the property, he disagrees with the density. Some of the problems could be eliminated or minimized if the density is lowered. Commissioner Perry didn't see any way that the pond could be included as common area. She felt that before a recommendation is made, more information should be obtained about the traffic. Commissioner Bose11 noted that the only problem with that is that the developer would have to have the drawings nailed down. However, based on 19 units, we can ask the county what their comments would be. If they go to the county, and it's favorable, do we have any problems with the special use permit? Jim Schrantz stated that the county doesn't care whether there are 50 or 60 cars coming out each day. All they care about is if the access is 300 feet away from the nearest access onto the county road. Only the city can control the density. Councilman Elling stated that whatever the Planning Commission decides, they should keep in mind that other PUDs will be coming in. Chairman Spotts asked Mr. Thomsen if he would come back with a plan with fewer units. Mr. Thomsen noted that if he decreases the number of units, it will add $2,460.00 to the cost of the other units. Commissioner Jacobson noted that that is the same line of thinking that was presented to Coon Rapids. The city did it and now they are trying to back out of it. Mrs. Sipe stated that if the owners of the units are a couple that are both working, the extra $2,500 won't make any difference. MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Bosel1 that the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council approval of a Special Use Permit requested by John Thomsen for the property located on the northwest corner of 144th Avenue N.W. and Round Lake Boulevard, which is approximately 6.6 acres in size. However, the Planning Commission has determined that based upon city ordinances and density zoning requirements, the request for 26 townhouses is inappropriate and the Planning Commission would recommend a lesser amount, perhaps 19 units (exact amount to be determined by the City Engineer). A public hearing was held; a number of residents expressed concerns of traffic, crowding Regular Planning Commission Meeting November 13, 1984 - Minutes Page 8 (Thomsen Special Use Permit, Cont.) of a number of people in that small area and the lack of open space available for play area. The Commission feels that if the calculations of the present ordinance are used, a lesser density would be arrived at and the smaller density would be more appropriate, but a higher density would not be. NOTE: The 19 unit figure was arrived at using the following: 6.6 acres x 43,560 square feet = 287,496 square feet: 14820 (average lot size plus 20% for streets and 10% for parks) = 19 units. Motion carried on a 5 yes, 1 no (Perry) vote. This will go to the City Council on November 20, 1984. MOTION by Bosell to adjourn. Motion carried unanimously. Meeting adjourned at 10:32 P.M. Respectfully submitted, liu Vicki Volk Commission Secretary ~ 01 ANDOVER REGULAR PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING DECEMBER 11, 1984 AGENDA Call to order - 7:30 P.M. Approval of Minutes 1. Comm. #10-84-10 John Thomsen Special Use Permit, Cont. 2. Townhouse Development Discussion ~ ~ ANDOVER REGULAR PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING DECEMBER 11, 1984 MINUTES The regularly scheduled Andover Planning and Zoning Commission meeting was called to order by Chairman Don Spotts at 7:30 P.M., Tuesday, December 11,1984 at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard N.W., Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners Present: Commissioners Absent: Also Present: Jovanovich; Perry; Jacobson; Rogers Ape 1; Bose 11 John Thomsen; others Approval of Minutes November 27, 1984 Page 3, in motion re: neck lots, change motion to read "is not major enough to..." MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Rogers to approve the minutes of November 27, 1984 as corrected. Motion carried on a 4 yes, 1 present (Perry) vote. John Thomsen Special Use Permit (Comm. #10-84-10) Chairman Spotts noted that this went to the City Council on November 20th and the City Council asked that it be sent back to the Planning Commission with a couple of items we should consider, such as density, the proposal shows construction over a drainage easement, the developer should try to work with the neighborhood, the traffic situation, the developer should have a building tied to the proposal and several other items. The City Council has until January 13th to act on this request. John Thomsen noted that he spoke to the County Highway Department and they will not allow any exits that are not 300 feet away from any other exit. The would approve his original proposal. He also noted that he spoke with three of the immediate neighbors and didn't go any further because the only thing they wanted was their park. Mr. Thomsen stated that upon the advice of his attorney he is going to put 'no trespassing' signs on the property. He has left his plan as originally presented to the Planning Commission. As far as the easement, it is not affected because it runs down the property line. The county said they could to just about anything on that easement. If the pond raises 6 inches, the water will automatically go into a spillway. Commissioner Jacobson asked if the first proposal they came in with was for 28 units. Mr. Thomsen noted that their very first proposal was for 64 units and the present one is for 26 units. Commissioner Jacobson noted that in the Planning Commission motion, 19 units were suggested. He asked if the plan has been changed to 19 units. Mr. Thomsen stated that the plan is for 26 units, not 19. Mike Vag1e, builder for Mr. Thomsen - noted that the City Attorney has stated that their development is considered as three or four family units, Commissioner Rogers asked how many acres the pond is. Mr. Thomsen noted that it is 1.7 acres according to the engineer. Regular Planning Commission Meeting December 11, 1984 - Minutes Page 2 (Thomsen Special Use Permit, Cont.) Commissioner Perry stated that taking out the pond leaves 4.9 acres of buildable land. Commissioner Jacobson noted that area has to be taken out for streets also. Mr. Thomsen stated that the streets will be private as the city doesn't want them for maintenance, etc. Robert Theide, 14423 Underc1ift St. N.W. - noted that there are the pond and the back yards of the people on Underc1ift Street. is buildable. Mr. Thomsen noted that even if that 20 yards is deducted from the total buildable acreage, they are still below the density level. He also noted that there is no such thing as unbui1dab1e land; it can be filled. about 20 yards between He asked if that property Commissioner Perry noted that in looking at the zoning district classifications, she would interpret this as 1.47 acres. The Comprehensive Plan suggests 5 to 8 units per acre for this area; therefore, the maximum would be 12 units. Commissioner Jacobson noted that some of the residents and the City Council feel that 19 is too many. Mr. Vag1e stated that the reason they are back before the Planning Commission is because the City Council didn't want to make a decision. He also noted that he spoke to one of the Councilmen and that person said he didn't say anything at the Council meeting because he was disgusted because the Council wouldn't make a decision. He asked why someone didn't tell them a long time ago that they had too many units. Mr. Vag1e also noted that some of the neighbors feel that the townhouses will devalue their property; he stated that that is not true. It doesn't do anything for their property values the way it is now. Commissioner Jacobson stated that there has been no compromise worked out. The developer is saying he wants 26 units but will take 19. The Council is asking the Planning Commission if we want to change our minds. He also noted that in the Comprehensive Plan there is provision in that area for some type of townhouse development. The Comprehensive Plan is a guideline, not a firm thing. Based on the criteria in the ordinance, 19 is a reasonable number. Mr. Vagle also noted that when they first came in with their plan, the Planning Commission did not exclude the pond. Mr. Thomsen is paying taxes on the total 6.6 acres, which means that the pond is taxed. A pond in a subdivision is an asset; now you're trying to exclude it. Richard Bombard, 3608 - l44th Avenue NW - stated that he is not against the townhouses, but the density. He felt that 19 or 26 units are too many when the property is sufficient in size for only 8 single family homes. Chairman Spotts noted that by using different criteria, you can have between 6 and 26 units on that property. He said there are 9 different things to work out, which is why the Council sent this back to the Planning Commission. Commissioner Perry didn't believe that in a proposed development of this kind that we could use the pond in calculating the density. We have to ensure that there is enough green space. She also stated that she has a concern about the traffic and asked if there would be any type of proposal for lighting. Regular Planning Commission Meeting December 11, 1984 - Minutes Page 3 (Thomsen Special Use Permit, Cont.) Mr. Thomsen noted that there will be lights in the development. Bonnie Theide, 14423 Underc1ift St. N.W. - noted that Mr. Thomsen was supposed to work with the neighbors to come to some sort of agreement. She stated that they are not opposed to 9 or 12 units, but 19 or 26 units are too many. She asked why the Planning Commission couldn't come up with the density. Commissioner Perry noted that her opinion would be that 7 to 12 units would be proper for that area. Mrs. Theide also noted that Mr. Thomsen didn't talk to any of the people who own property abutting his; she wondered who he did talk to. Chairman Spotts stated the the Council indicated that they were not sure what the density should be. If you go gross area, you can get 46 units; if you use net acreage, you can get 6 units. If the pond is taken out, there are 5.5 acres remaining, part of which is in the flood plain. Commissioner Jacobson noted that single family dwellings are not the best use of that property. Some people think 19 units is too much; some want no more than 12 units. He stated that he could not recommend more than 19 units. Richard Bombard asked how the Commission will decide what the right density is. He stated that it sounds like everyone has a different opinion. Chairman Spotts stated that regardless of what the Planning Commission says, the Council can over-ride them. He also noted that the city has never had a townhouse development. His interpretation is that he would use the 6.6 acres to determine density. He also didn't like the idea of 26 units although he felt 19 would be more feasible. Mr. Bombard - asked is a cul-de-sac has been suggested with single family homes. Chairman Spotts stated that Mr. Thomsen is not here for single family dwellings. Mr. Bombard asked how much land was going to be used for the density. He stated that the Planning Commission has to figure out what is usable land and which calculations they are going to use. If this is a test for Andover, every other development will be using this as an example. MOTION by Jacobson, seconded by Perry that the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council in regard to the Thomsen Special Use Permit, that the Commission has met with the developer and some concerned citizens at the meeting on December 11th and discussed at length the proposal. After said discussion, the Commission finds that its original recommendation to the City Council made on November 13, 1984 is still a fair and appropriate recommendation and the number of units proposed in that motion is still appropriate to the Special Use Permit. The Commission feels that no more than 19 units be developed on the property. Vote on Motion: No - Jovanovich; Perry; Spotts. Yes - Jacobson; Rogers. Motion failed. MOTION by Perry, seconded by Jovanovich that the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council approval of the Special Use Permit requested by John Thomsen with the following provisions: 1) That the area to be considered exclude the pond and the area within the 100 year flood plain; 2) Denisty be based on an adjusted acreage of 4.9 Regular Planning Commission Meeting December 11, 1984 - Minutes Page 4 (Thomsen Special Use Permit, Cont.) acres with the number of units allowed to be no greater than 12 based on the Comprehensive Plan suggestion for density in the Urban Service Area for townhouse development. Vote on motion: No - Rogers; Jacobson; Spotts; Yes - Jovanovich; Perry. Motion failed. Recess 8:56 - Reconvene 9:08 MOTION by Rogers, seconded by Jacobson that the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission recommend to the City Council approval of a Special Use Permit requested by John Thomsen for a Planned Unit Development on approximately 6.6 acres located at 144th Avenue and Round Lake Boulevard. Approval is pursuant to Ordinance 8, Sections 4.18, 6.02 and 7.03. The Commission recommends that the ponding area and the area below the 870 flood plain be eliminated from the total consideration, leaving 1.47 acres. Also, consideration should be given to the developer if some of the fringe area of the flood plain can be filled. If it can be filled, that amount could be included in the area to be considered for the number of units. The Planning Commission recommends that the developer have the option of filling to bring areas below the flood plain to buildable standards. In the event fill is brought in, the City Engineer shall calculate the number of buildable acres and the density then be determined based on those areas. Discussion: Using the Comprehensive Plan suggestion, the result would be 5-8 units per acre in the Urban Service Area. Ordinance 8, Section 6.02 requires 3,500 square feet lot area per unit for a development consisting of 3 or more family units. Motion carried unanimously. A brief discussion regarding townhouses followed. MOTION by Jovanovich to adjourn. Motion carried unanimously. Meeting adjourned at 9:30 P.M. Respectfully submitted, b'ia/ Vicki Volk Commission Secretary