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HomeMy WebLinkAboutJuly 8, 2003 C I T Y o F ~ a.a.; NDOVE ~ Y-ld-c3 :_) 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER, MINNESOTA 55304 . (763) 755-5100 FAX (763) 755-8923 . WWW.CI.ANDOVER.MN.US PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING - JULY 8, 2003 The Regular Bi-Monthly MeetiÌ1g of the Andover Planning and Zoning Commission was called to order by Chairperson Daninger on July 8, 2003, 7:01 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Commissioners present: Chairperson Daninger, Commissioners Tim Kirchoff, Tony Gamache, Rex Greenwald, Dean Vatne, Jonathan Jasper (arrived at 7:04 p.m.) and Michael Casey. Commissioners absent: There were none. Also present: City Planner, Courtney Bednarz City Engineer, David Berkowitz Others CJ APPROVAL OF MINUTES. June 24, 2003 Chairperson Daninger stated he did not recall making the motion to approve the previous minutes and he wondered if anyone else could have made the motion. Commissioner Kirchoff explained he believed he made the motion. Chairperson Daninger noted the minutes should be changed to reflect Commissioner Kirchoff as making the motion approving the May 27, 2003 minutes. Motion by Gamache, seconded by Casey, to approve the minutes as amended above. Motion carried on a 6-ayes, O-nays, I-absent vote: Commissioner Jasper arrived at 7:04 p.m. PUBLIC HEARING: SKETCH PLAN REVIEW FOR A RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT TO BE KNOWN AS "BUNKER LAKE VILLAGE" LOCATED AT THE NORTHEAST AND SOUTHEAST CORNERS OF HANSON BOULEVARD AND 139TH LANE NW. \ j '.~ Regular Andover PlannQ and Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 2 0 Mr. Bednarz explained that the Planning Commission is asked to review a sketch plan for 'Bunker Lake Village', an urban residential development containing 41 single family lots on two properties located at the northeast and southwest corner of Hanson Boulevard and 139th Lane NW. The proposed development would require planned unit development review to provide alternative development standards. Due to the proximity of the closed landfill site, there are additional restrictions on the use of the subject properties within certain distances of the limits of the landfill. No enclosed buildings are allowed within 200 feet of the edge of the landfill. This sketch will need to be evaluated by the PCA to verify the line is properly located. The proposed development would be served with a public street that would provide an interior access road from 138th Lane up to 140th Lane. Staffhas asked that a through street be provided to conform to the proposed Transportation Plan update. As indicated on attached Figure 18 from this plan, access to Hanson Boulevard from 138th Lane NW will be closed with future county road improvements. Additionally, a future median will restrict access to 140th Lane NW to right-in/right-out only. As a result, 139th Lane will be the only full movement access to Hanson Boulevard between Bunker Lake Boulevard and Andover Boulevard. By limiting access to Hanson Boulevard, these county road improvements will require an interior access road to serve the Hills of Bunker Lake neighborhood. The attached location map also helps to illustrate the roadway network in 0 the surrounding neighborhood. Some residents along 140th Lane NW have voiced opposition to the through street. As designed at the request of City staff, the through street would create a corner lot at 140th lane NW. The setback for the existing structure would be 13 feet from the right-of-way and approximately 27 feet from the curb of the proposed street. This would be below the typical 35 foot setback. With the proposed design, a variance would need to be granted for the existing house to prevent a non-conforming structure from being created by the location of the proposed street. Staff will need to explore further the potential to create additional space between the existing home and the proposed street. This will be difficult, however, as there is limited space to Hanson Boulevard. * Mr. Dean Hanson, owner of Hanson Builders made a presentation to the Commission regarding the sketch plan for Bunker Lake Village. Commissioner Vatne asked if the density in the Brooklyn Park Villas of Mississippi Development was comparable to this development. Mr. Hanson stated it was. Commissioner Kirchoff asked if the windows in the garage were decorative or actual windows. Mr. Hanson stated they would be real windows. (J Chairperson Daninger stated he talked to Mr. Hanson previously about cul-de-sacs and he wondered if a cul-de-sac would be more beneficial to him than a thru street. Mr. Hanson Regular Andover Plannr;:; and Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 3 0 stated he wanted to be as positive as he can for everyone involved and the City has expressed the importance of traffic control. A cul-de-sac is always desirable but when looking at the better of the whole, he understands the City's reasoning why the street should go through the development. Motion by Gamache, seconded by Kirchoff, to open the public hearing at 7:23 p.m. Motion carried on a 7 -ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. Ms. Charlene Booker stated they are one of the families that live on Drake Street overlooking the park and she is trying to get an idea about where the five acres is that has been for sale. She asked how much of the park will be left. She stated this seems like this will be too dense. She wanted to know if the future residents will want the added traffic from the development behind them. Why will they have three to four bedroom homes, ifthey are targeting empty nesters. Mr. Bednarz showed a layout ofthe area and explained where the land meets the park and the traffic patterns. He stated that what they have heard from the Anoka County Highway Department is that with the improvement on Hanson Boulevard, access to Hanson from 138th Lane will likely be eliminated and from 140th Lane, a median will be extended to limit access to right in/right out. The intent being to limit uncontrolled access points to the county road and focus traffic to 139th Lane where there will be a stop light. He explained the goals of the County and City regarding traffic access onto Hanson Boulevard. C:J Chairperson Daninger asked if they could have proposed six units per acre instead of four. Mr. Bednarz stated this was true. Mr. Jim Vandrick, 139th Avenue, asked how many units total there were. Mr. Hanson stated there were 41. He asked when the signal light on 139th will be installed. Mr. Bednarz stated at this point, Hanson Boulevard is a County Roadway and when Andover Station North develops, there will be a signal light needed and could occur within the next two to three years. Mr. Vandrick stated there could be a number of years that this development will impact traffic until the light is installed. Mr. Bednarz stated there will be more traffic but the residents will retain the ability to use the access points and will not have the additional traffic down 139th until the improvements are done. Mr. Vandrick asked if any of the trees will remain and if there will be any buffering between the development and the park. Mr. Hanson explained this is an association maintained project. As far as the number of bedrooms, the empty nesters typically want to have two bedrooms on one floor and a bedroom on the lower level for company or visiting family. He showed on the map where the walk out lots will be. He stated their plan is to keep aU ofthe natural trees that they can for a barrier along Hanson Boulevard and they will need to build up a berm and add trees for barriers in other areas. Wherever they can save trees, they will do it. Construction will not happen until 2004, although grading may start this fall. They hope 0 to have a model in the fall of2004 and the build out will happen over a couple of years and may not be finished until 2007 which could coincide with the stop light at 139th. He 0 ,F) '.-j Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 4 :-J explained the Villas of Mississippi is on 105th/West River Road for anyone who would "--./ like to see a comparable development. Ms. Bartells stated this was a great concern to them because they live where the walkouts are going to be and she wanted to know if Mr. Hanson was planning on putting a berm in between them and the development because the walkouts face their deck. Mr. Daniel Webber, 1556 140th Lane, stated he backs up against the development. He stated he does not have a problem with the development but he does have a Eroblem with Eagle Street being a through street. He stated there is enough traffic on 140 already and he has two kids and is concerned about it. He asked what the buffer will be to his property and what will they do to control the dirt and dust from entering his property. Ms. Kathy Nyland, 140th Lane, stated she thought the development going back five lots was in error, the park land border is on lot four rather than lot five. Mr. Bednarz explained the development does go back five lots and shares the fifth lot with the park. He showed the area in discussion on the map. Ms. Joyce Twistle, 1518 139th Lane NW, stated she is president of the neighborhood association which was instrumental in stopping the superette from coming in. She stated she was pleased with the development and they support this project. She wanted to speak í~ against a cul-de-sac. She explained cul-de-sacs are difficult to provide fire service, police \_~ service and plowing. She wanted to express for the record that she supports Eagle Street as a through street. Ms. Twistle stated her concern is with the traffic in the area already because it is difficult right now to get off of 139th onto Hanson. She asked consideration of the Planning Commission to put an all way stop sign, north and south, on Hanson and also on 139th until the stop light is put in. This will at least allow current residents to come and go. She would also like to address the fact that empty nesters will not be traveling at the same time as school buses or rush hour. She wanted to thank Hanson Builders on behalf ofthe residents on 139th Lane. Mr. Hanson explained due to the fact there is no house on the comer lot, their section actually comes over 3 ~ lots. He wanted to explain that they are not trying to create more traffic on 140th Lane and he did not think there would be any additional traffic going back into the existing development and this does not dump any additional traffic into the existing development, it will bring the traffic out onto Hanson Boulevard. Mr. Hanson explained they will be using silt fences to lower the-dirt and debris blowing but it will not stop everything. He stated they are working with staff on the issue of traffic. If the traffic lights do come in, they will be contributing some funds to installing the lights. ~-) I 0 0 Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 5 ---., " ) Mr. Hanson explained they will install spruce trees along the property line to give a break '-- ' between the properties in the two developments. Mr. Nyland asked if they would consider berming in areas. Mr. Hanson stated he would. Mr. Nyland wanted to know how far off the property line the corner unit is. Mr. Hanson stated the distance back on that unit appears to be about 33 feet. Mr. Hanson stated the standard side setback is ten feet. Commissioner Greenwald stated the concern is the traffic from 140th Lane will need to go down Eagle Street to access 139th. He wondered if Mr. Hanson was concerned with the traffic going down Eagle Street. Mr. Hanson stated the reality is there needs to be some way to get out of the development when the restrictions are put in place. Commissioner Greenwald asked if the houses will be priced for empty nesters or if anyone could purchase the homes. Mr. Hanson stated there is no age restriction but he believed most of the houses would be sold to people without children. Mr. Tony Brozeck, 140th Lane stated he has listened to everyone's concerns and they have to accept something that they can live with. He stated a commercial building is not the answer and this will disperse the traffic better than a commercial business. As a resident of the development, he likes what he sees and he does not see any better option. /---.... Mr. Dan Beyers, 1423 138th Avenue, stated he is for the development for a couple , j '. -- reasons. It is zoned now for commercial use and he does not think anyone in the development wants this. He stated they need to find an option for the two parcels and he is in favor of putting in some sort of single family homes. He explained the second issue is Eagle Street coming down to 139th. He did not think it is ideal to be funneled up to 139th Lane but it is a solution. ! Mr. Berkowitz explained regarding the four way stop on 138th and Hanson, it is something they can entertain to the County but more likely, because Hanson is a free flowing road, they probably would not allow the City to put in a three way stop in those areas. He explained the traffic signal is dependant on development of Andover Station North. This development could be phased in a year or two or all at once. A question from the audience was if they were going to screen the park from the development. Mr. Hanson stated they wanted the openness so they will not screen this. Motion by Gamache, seconded by Kirchoff, to close the public hearing at 8:15 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. Commissioner Jasper stated it seemed that there was a concern with the proximity of Eagle Street to Hanson Boulevard and whether that leaves enough room on 140th and Ü 139th for traffic to funnel out of the development to the proposed new stop light because it is only a seventy foot or sixty foot section of road between Eagle and Hanson on 139th. Regular Andover PlannQ and Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 6 -----. , , Mr. Bednarz explained 139th Lane is approximately 200 feet to Hanson from 140th Lane , j - and Eagle Street between paved surfaces. The dimension on the plan that says 135 feet will be the horizontal line and does not include the distance that is consumed in the curves at the edges ofthe lot. He explained they also have the distance of right-of-way on Hanson. Commissioner Jasper asked if this was a deviation from what would have normally been. Mr. Bednarz stated that all of the access points for Eagle Street are short of the three hundred and thirty feet spacing requirement that typically is required adjacent to arterial roads. Commissioner Jasper asked if the two hundred foot measurement will bottleneck traffic. Commissioner Greenwald stated some of the people from the development will find alternate ways to get out and they will not all use 139th. Mr. Bednarz stated they cannot assume the entire development will exit on 139th to Hanson. He explained the goal is to reduce the number of access points onto Hanson. Commissioner Kirchoff stated this type of development is helping the City and the issues they have in this development. He stated he commends Hanson Builders for putting this type of development in. Chairperson Daninger stated there were some issues in the staff report that he wanted to bring forward so Hanson Builders was aware of them. / Mr. Bednarz discussed the following issues: ¡ J 1. Working with the Anoka County Highway department, the adjacent property owner and the applicant to determine the best location for the access to 140th Lane NW and the curve in this street to allow additional space between the existing home and the proposed street for berming and landscaping. 2. Increasing the north side yard setback of the structure on Lot 12, Block 1 to save existing mature evergreen trees at this location to provide an excellent buffer for the existing neighborhood. 3. Working with the Anoka County Highway Department and the applicant to determine the appropriate amount of additional right-of way for 139th Lane NW. 4. Increasing the comer side yard setback of the structure on Lot 1, Block 3. The distance between the structure and 139th Lane could decrease as much as 12 feet with the addition of turn lanes. 5. Evaluating landscaping and screening approaches for areas adjacent to existing homes, along Hanson Boulevard and adjacent to comer lots in the proposed development. ,", 6. Working with the PCA to ensure appropriate location of enclosed buildings. .. ) \_/ Regular Andover plannÇ, and Zoning Commission Meeting U Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 7 ~ He stated there were two additional issues he wanted to add. The first was to explore the potential to flatten curves on Eagle Street. The other issue was the potential for whether or not parking should be permitted on Eagle Street. As proposed, the street would meet the City's local street requirements, which would allow parking on both sides of the street. Commissioner Greenwald stated he did not think the City could stop the residents from parking in the street. He also stated he did not think they should straighten out the curves because it slows traffic down. Commissioner Gamache stated he could see the concern with this. Chairperson Daninger stated they could post parking signs at designated times. Commissioner Jasper stated he lives on a feeder street where people drive too fast and he would welcome cars parked on the street to slow the traffic down. Commissioner Vatne asked if there will be a final neighborhood meeting before this development is built. Mr. Bednarz explained the public hearing is held by the Planning Commission for the residents to express their feelings. The sketch plan will also be reviewed by the City Council before the plat is submitted and the same process begins agam. Mr. Bednarz stated that this item would be before the Council at the August 5, 2003 City , ' <-) Council meeting. Note: Staff will send a notice to reflect the meeting date was changed to August 6th. PUBLIC HEARING: COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT (03-04) TO REVIEW THE TRANSPORTATION PLAN UPDATE TO THE CITY'S COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. Mr. Berkowitz explained the City has been working on the Transportation Plan Update to the Comprehensive Plan for about one year. Mr. Shelly Johnson, BRA and Associates, presented the Transportation Plan Update to the Commission. Commissioner Gamache explained that an intersection hotspot is Andover Boulevard and Hanson Boulevard he wondered why this was not addressed. Mr. Johnson stated this was left out because the County is already studying this. Mr. Berkowitz stated the County is looking at upgrading this intersection in 2005 if there is funding. Commissioner Greenwald stated the access from the theatre onto Jay Street is dangerous because the landscaping is already grown too large, can there be something done about 0 this. Mr. Johnson stated an engineering analysis could be done to see what is needed for - () U Regular Andover Planni;rg and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 8 ~) the proper site distance, and then the landscaping could be evaluated to see what would need to be taken out to improve the intersection. Commissioner Greenwald asked in the future if consideration will be made to pick the correct landscaping for these areas. He asked if he had a concern who would a citizen call. Mr. Berkowitz stated they could call either himself or Mr. Haas. He stated they have had a few complaints about the Jay Street access and they are working with their landscaper to see if they can trim the plants down so there is not a safety issue. Commissioner Greenwald stated if they were going to look at that area, he would also request them looking at the area on Station Parkway. Commissioner Kirchoff stated all questions should be brought forward to Mr. Berkowitz. Mr. Berkowitz stated the residents could also petition for a traffic study on safety issues. Commissioner Greenwald asked how the residents would petition for a study. Mr. Berkowitz stated there is a form residents could fill out from the City. Other ways are an informal signature page and the City uses that as a petition. Commissioner Jasper stated stop light timing is an issue in the City and he wondered who residents would contact regarding this. Mr. Berkowitz stated the County controls the traffic lights but he could forward the concern on. Commissioner Vatne stated one of things that stood out was the assumptions of traffic (' flows in the future and there was speaking specifically about the Rural Reserve options, <) he stated one of the assumptions was that ninety percent of the acreage is developed and he was surprised to see that at ninety percent. Mr. Johnson stated what they asked the staff to do when they asked them to look at the two Rural Reserve areas was to give them how much of the property could be developed. Chances are that it would not be developed up to ninety percent. Commissioner Vatne stated there was quite a bit of focus on Hanson Boulevard and Crosstown but not on Round Lake Boulevard and he wondered why. Mr. Johnson stated Round Lake Boulevard is as wide as it is going to get. Mr. Berkowitz stated through the process, Round Lake Boulevard was already planned through the County for development. Commissioner Vatne stated he has heard a lot of feedback from the northern area about the access to trails. He stated the existing trail system is south and central and the short range plan is all in the southern area, he asked if there was a feeder system from the north to the south for the rural area. Mr. Johnson stated the City has a quite comprehensive trail system planned. He explained that the reason why there are not any short range plans for trails in the north side is the numbers of people who will be served by the trails are not great. Mr. Berkowitz stated looking at some of the short range trail systems, it is more cost beneficial to build the trails during the reconstruction of roads. They also look at tying the existing trail system together. He stated this is something they will look into. () '-.J - 0 () Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 9 CJ Motion by Gamache, seconded by Casey, to open the public hearing at 8:54 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. Ms. Joyce Twistle, 1518 139th Lane, stated she would like to address the issue of the sketch plan review heard earlier on the proposed Bunker Lake Village development. It is her understanding that the traffic from the proposed Eagle Street will eventually come forward and out onto 139th Lane. She stated that with transportation plans for the future, there will be a proposed right in on 138th and 140th. The traffic on Hanson is dangerous and numerous. She stated she would like to encourage the City to look at installing stop signs at the intersection of 139th Lane and Hanson Boulevard intersection. She sees this as an all-way stop. She explained that as traffic starts dumping into this area, it will only be worse. Mr. Berkowitz stated through the transportation plan, 138th will be closed to traffic completely and 140th will have a right in/right out and 139th will have the full traffic signal. He stated in regards to the four way stop on 138th and 140th, in the interim before the traffic signal is installed, it is something they could entertain with the County but he did not think it would be approved. Ms. Twistle stated she is not requesting a four way stop at 138th or 140th, but at 139th until the stoplight is in. Mr. Berkowitz stated this is something the City could ask the County about. Commissioner Greenwald stated that Mr. Berkowitz could relay to the County that a group of citizens would like a stop sign installed. C) Ms. Charlene Booker, 14014 Drake Street asked if there would be a way to do a left in onto 140th. Mr. Berkowitz stated this issue is access management and they did have meetings with the County. The access management in an urban area is If,¡ mile, and in an urban area is 1f2 mile. Mr. Dan Webber, 1556 140th Lane NW, stated he is against the proposed Eagle Street. He feels it is too close to Hanson. There is enough traffic on the road the way it is and the speed of the road is too fast. He wanted to know if there was a traffic study done on this road. Mr. Berkowitz stated there was not a traffic study done on this roadway. Mr. Johnson stated once Eagle Street is constructed, which does fit the conceptual plan, the traffic volumes will change and the traffic on 140th will decrease, 139th will increase and 138th will really decrease. Mr. Johnson explained access management has a number of functions, one is to protect the major roadway and in order to give good access management, accesses presently given to certain streets will change and some of the patterns of driving will change, however they try not to decrease the efficiency of the street and they have to always be aware that it should be efficient so public service can get in out of the area as best as possible. Ms. Kathy Nyland, 1529 140th Lane, asked regarding the speed on Hanson Boulevard 0 ftom Andover Boulevard to Bunker Lake Boulevard, is there any plan to decrease the speed limit and control it any better. Mr. Berkowitz stated the County is in the process of /~) (J Regular Andover Plannittg and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 10 r) doing an improvement to the median to restrict access in that area and to extend a median '---. all the way up Hanson to Andover Boulevard and beyond but he would not see any decrease in speed. Mr. Johnson stated as a roadway tends to develop, historically the speed comes down and that is controlled by the MN Department of Transportation. They set all of the speeds in Minnesota. At the request of any City, the MN Department of Transportation will do a speed study. Mr. Berkowitz stated if he is not available, Mr. Todd Haas would be available for help. Motion by Vatne, seconded by Gamache, to close the public hearing at 9:08 p.m. Motion carried on a 7 -ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. Commissioner Greenwald stated he saw on one of the plans of a proposed river crossing of Rum River, he wondered what kind of time frame they were looking at. Mr. Johnson stated one ofthe difficulties is they have two few river crossings and any City adjacent to a river should put a river crossing in the plan as a potential river crossing but it does not mean it will be built, but if they do, it better be in the plan. Commissioner Vatne stated he did take time to review the entire book, and he thought it was an excellent source of work. This will be very useful down the road. í') Chairperson Daninger thanked the staff involved in putting this together. ',-/ Motion by Greenwald, Seconded by Vatne, to approve the Comprehensive Plan , Amendment (03-04) update. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, o-absent vote. j ! Mr. Bednarz stated that this item would be before the Council at the August 5, 2003 City Council meeting. PUBLIC HEARING: LOT SPLIT (03-01) TO CREATE TWO URBAN RESIDENTIAL LOTS FROM PROPERTY LOCATED AT 1415 ANDOVER BOULEVARDNW. Mr. Bednarz explained that this item (Lot Split with Variance to lot depth) was reviewed and denied by the City Council on February 11,2003. The Council has recently amended Ordinance 8, Section 6.02 Minimum District Provisions to allow lot splits for lots that are close, but do not meet all of the requirements. With this amendment, the applicant has requested that this item be reconsidered. A variance to lot depth is no longer necessary. The applicant is seeking to re-establish a property line between two previously combined urban residential lots (Lots 5 and 6, Block 4 of Hartfiel's Estates). A house exists toward i the south end of the lot. The proposed lot split would allow a second home to be constructed on the northerly portion of the lot. 0 Regular Andover PlannQ and Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - July 8, 2003 ¡ Page 11 (-" : \.~/ Mr. Bednarz discussed the history of the land with the Commission. The removal of 50 feet from the west side of the subject property reduced the lot depth from 167 feet to 117 feet. The minimum lot depth of the Single Family Urban Residential (R-4) Zoning District is 130 feet. 117 feet is 90% of 130 feet. With the amended ordinance, the lot split can be approved without a variance. If the lot split is approved the City should require the standard drainage and utility easements for urban properties to be dedicated with a separate easement document for both lots (ten feet wide along front and rear property line and five feet wide along side property lines. Park dedication was satisfied through the dedication of land as a part of the plat. Ordinance 40, Section 5.B. (Lot Split Ordinance) prohibits park dedication from being collected for a lot split once land was dedicated as a part of the plat. A Trail fee in the amount of $523 will be required if the lot split is approved. The City Council established a trail fee requirement with Resolution 270-99 for all lot splits, regardless of what has been collected in the past. /"--", If the lot split is approved the new house will be required to connect to municipal water ',~ and sewer and pay the assessment as calculated by the City Clerk. There is an existing detached garage that straddles the proposed property line. The structure would be required to be moved before a building permit will be issued for the new lot. Access to the new lot will be provided from Bluebird Street NW. The applicant would also be willing to relocate the access to the existing house from Andover Boulevard to Bluebird Street NW. Staff recommends approval of the proposed lot split. Motion by Kirchoff, seconded by Gamache, to open the public hearing at 9:16 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. There was no public input. Motion by Gamache, seconded by Kirchoff, to close the public hearing at 9:16 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. Commissioner Jasper explained this item came before the Commission before and he 0 explained that he voted against this at that time because he felt it did not have a hardship to meet the Ordinance. He stated the City Council agreed with him but since then, the 0 U Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 12 .,- " , "-,-/ Ordinance has been changed and this item now meets the Ordinance. He commended the applicant for working through an extremely long process and he will now speak in favor of the lot split. Other Commissioners agreed. Motion by Jasper, seconded by Vatne, to recommend to the City Council approval of Lot Split (03-01) creating two urban residential lots from property located at 1415 Andover Boulevard NW. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. Mr. Bednarz stated that this item would be before the Council at the July 15,2003 City Council meeting. PUBLIC HEARING: ORDINANCE AMENDMENT (03-07) TO CONSIDER AMENDMENT TO ORDINANCE 10, SECTION 9.06 TO REDUCE THE SIZE OF THE REQUIRED BUILDABLE AREA FOR RURAL PROPERTIES Mr. Bednarz explained that the Planning Commission and Council have asked staff to prepare information to consider reducing the amount of buildable area required on rural lots. The purpose of this amendment is to preserve more of the natural character of the rural areas and allow more potential home sites without affecting the minimum lot size of 2.5 acres. r--" <-.-J It is important to begin this discussion with the understanding that this ordinance amendment will only affect the size of the area that needs to meet the buildability requirements of Ordinance 10. It is proposed that the 22,500 square foot contiguous area be eliminated as a requirement. However, no changes are recommended to how a home can be placed in relation to the water table, the size of on site septic areas or lot size requirements. The Council met to discuss this item on June 24th. The Council was generally in agreement that the buildability requirements should be relaxed. They seemed comfortable with the staff recommended approach of 3,600 square feet. The minutes : from the meeting are attached. Commissioner Gamache asked what the typical dimensions of an R4 lot. Mr. Bednarz stated 80 by 130 is the minimum but the minimum area is 11,400 square feet so typically they end up with an 80 by 143 or 85 by 136 or somewhere in those dimensions. Commissioner Greenwald stated he was not real clear about the intention of this item. He asked if there were two items they needed to look at. Commissioner Gamache stated they 1 are only discussing one issue and that is reducing the size of the buildable area. t () Discussion ensued in regards to what the current ordinance states. ! ,,_/ Regular Andover PlannL) and Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 13 ,~ Commissioner Greenwald stated in the staff report, there was not any other suburban ( , \---' examples found so he wondered how they could go from 150 by 150 to 60 by 60, there had to be some logic in thinking. Mr. Bednarz stated they did not find any examples of a requirement for such a large area beyond the foundation size of the house. The 60 by 60 is somewhat of a standard planning and engineering tool when reviewing grading plans to allow sufficient space on a lot to fit most styles of homes constructed. He stated they would rather not tie it to a straight 60 by 60 box given the long rambler with the inline garage for an example so it can be modified somewhat. Commissioner Gamache stated he agreed with what they were trying to do but he did not ; know if this was the right way to go with this. He stated he would feel more comfortable going with a percentage as compared to the footprint of the house. He asked if they could entertain a percentage such as three times the square footage of the house rather than a strict 3600 square feet. Mr. Bednarz stated this is something that would work if they knew what the house was going to be but in terms of a rural plat, they do not know the size of the home or the footprint at the time the plat is under review. Commissioner Jasper stated he had the same note and what he thought would be appropriate would be the 3600 square feet or twice the footprint of the building. He thought it was doable that way because if they are doing a rural plat and they are showing a buildable space of 3600 square feet or 4000 square feet, you know what size house can (-, be built there. He stated that by using twice or three times, whatever is appropriate, the footprint of any buildings, they would have room to do this. Putting in an alternative is a \'. .J i good idea. I ! Commissioner Kirchoff stated the building code must have something regarding this already. Commissioner Gamache explained the applicant would still have to meet building codes in order to get a building permit. Chairperson Daninger stated the number is a minimum and he wondered if it could be increased if needed. Commissioner Jasper stated he disagreed because what the section does as he reads it, you have to have a flat buildable pad so far above the high water marks so you could have people who are building on a slope that goes under the high water mark. Commissioner Greenwald stated they have Ordinances that could eliminate the chance to build the house. A resident stated in order to build; you need to be three feet over the high water mark. Mr. Bednarz stated there are other building department requirements in terms of where the lowest floor can be placed in relation to the water level. What the ordinance amendment is dealing with the amount of area that would need to be cleared or raised to reach a finished grade that meets the minimum buildability requirements. Commissioner Jasper asked if the original purpose of this ordinance to have an area outside of the footprint of the house that is graded level to the house. Commissioner Gamache asked if there is a minimum in the building code for graded level around the 0 ! Regular Andover PlannQ and Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 14 , \ f house. Mr. Bednarz stated the building code does provide a maximum slope away from J the foundations. Commissioner Vatne stated the purpose of this is to determine whether this can be a platable 212 acre or above lot within the covenants of Andover so it is establishing a minimum buildable area. Commissioner Kirchoff stated they do address in this ordinance under 9.06, lots, they address the high water level for the lowest floor. Commissioner Jasper stated the six-foot above the seasonal high water mark would not go beyond the footprint of the house with the change that is being suggested. Mr. Bednarz stated this was correct; it is the finished grade or the top layer of the lot. Motion by Greenwald, seconded by Casey, to open the public hearing at 9:40 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. Mr. Franklin Peach stated he is trying to build on 157th Avenue without a variance so he does not need to take down trees. The original ordinance was for people who want to install a pool and his whole point is ifhe wants to install a pool, he will clear the trees then but right now he wants to keep his land the way it is. He stated that the building codes are still there with the water table and he would really appreciate the Commissions consideration in this matter. ," -, \, J Commissioner Jasper asked what the footprint of the building would be and the size of the buildable area he would like to clear. Mr. Peach stated it would probably be over 5000 square feet including everything. He explained with his plans, he will go over this , , requirement but he stated he was just trying to keep the land as natural as possible. Motion by Greenwald, seconded by Kirchoff, to close the public hearing at 9:43 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. The Commission recessed at 9:45 p.m. The Commission reconvened at 9:50 p.m. Commissioner Vatne asked for clarification, the 3600-foot pad as proposed so they are ; , talking about physically building a pad, previously the 22,500 was the pad, physically ! was there a 22,500 pad built because he assumed it was buildable area as opposed to a pad. Mr. Bednarz stated it depended on the topography of the lot. Ifthe land is high enough, a person could draw a box anywhere on the 2-12 acres and they would be fine. They may only need to clear enough area for the house if the area is high enough. Commissioner Jasper stated he still thought some area in access of buildable size is a ; good idea if the building standards and building code encompass an area has to be twenty , /\ feet from the building, and then this ordinance is irrelevant and not necessary because it ' j "'-_ J 0 0 Regular Andover Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 15 0 does not serve a purpose. His read of the ordinance is it serves a purpose beyond that which is to allow for an area outside of the building that is flat and uniform and presentable. He stated that while he agreed the 22,500 is antiquated and unnecessary, something in excess of the size of the building, depending on the size of the building is necessary. Commissioner Gamache stated he originally brought that up and with further discussion, he has found that it is not possible in some instances because they are also talking about , plats, where they do not know what the size of the house will be so they need to put a ! minimum number in there. Commissioner Jasper stated he disagreed with that because they can say 3600 or twice the size of the building and if they have a 3600 size footprint, they would put a building up, if you have a 5000 square foot, then you know you can build a 2500 square foot building. He stated that when they plat it and decide on the size of the building during the time of the platting, the will be deciding what can be built on the land later. Commissioner Kirchoff stated he trusted what staff recommended because they do this every day and they obviously chose that number for some reason, knowing that if it were going to be a larger home, it would be a larger lot and they would not give a permit for it. Commissioner Jasper asked what the purpose of the 3600 if they do not need that much. ! ; Mr. Bednarz stated the purpose is to ensure that the lot is buildable and that the pad is 0 large enough to fit the majority of homes that are being constructed in the City. He stated , there is an important point that they all need to agree upon and that is they do not know the size of the house when they are looking at a plat, that comes later at the time of the building permit. At the time that the plat is proposed, they have a piece of property and a developer who wants to split the lot up into smaller lots and the Cities primary concern is that each of those lots is going to be able to support a house. He stated this ordinance requirement sets up the minimum requirement criteria for what a buildable lot is. He stated that has to be separated from the size of the future structure because at that point, i they do not know what size that structure will be. He explained the size of the pad, can ; limit the structure unless they have more grading done in the future. : Commissioner Jasper stated since he has been on the Commission they have had this i issue before them twice before and neither time has been with a plat. Chairperson I I Daninger stated he has dealt with this issue during a plat and it will come up again. Commissioner Vatne stated he sees this as timing, at an early stage for the plats, there is something necessary to say building lot or not, later through the building code, a definition will take place. Commissioner Greenwald stated a person could make the lot buildable and that is what the ordinance is for. He thought 3600 square feet is adequate. 0 Regular Andover PlannQ and Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 16 ; ,~ Commissioner Gamache stated they have to be very careful that if they state it a certain \..j way, they will not be contradicting other codes. What they are trying to do is set a mInImum. Mr. Bednarz stated the purpose ofthis ordinance is to set a minimum requirement to deem the lot buildable. Motion by Kirchoff, seconded by Casey, to recommend to the City Council approving the changes as presented by staff and to reduce the size of the required buildable area for rural properties to be a minimum of 3600 square feet. Commissioner Jasper stated he agreed that the 22,500 should be decreased but he disagreed with the way it is being done by the Commission. Commissioner Vatne stated the one other element is for him to understand what they are doing with this ordinance and how it ties into at a later phase, a building permit is issued to comply with building codes. He would need to see the process side by side and how they interrelate. He stated he does not understand how the process works. Commissioner Greenwald stated there is no precedence that they worked under to get the 3600 square feet and there was not any other suburban evidence so he agreed with Commissioner Vatne and suggested that they needed to look at the process before they ¡ --, , ( ì ; , ) would pass this on to make sure they are comfortable with the changes. ... , Motion carried on a 4-ayes, 3-nays (Greenwald, Jasper, Vatne) O-absent vote. Mr. Bednarz stated that this item would be before the Council at the July 15, 2003 City Council meeting. Commissioner Greenwald stated Mr. Bednarz may want to give the City Council an example of a larger house plan, what would the requirements be as a minimum. OTHER BUSINESS. Mr. Bednarz updated the Planning Commission on related items. ADJOURNMENT. Motion by Kirchoff, seconded by Greenwald, to adjourn the meeting at 10:06 p.m. Motion carried on a 7-ayes, O-nays, O-absent vote. /) \,_.J Regular Andover PlannC) and Zoning Commission Meeting 0 Minutes - July 8, 2003 Page 17 - " Respectfully Submitted, J Sue Osbeck, Recording Secretary TimeSaver Off Site Secretarial, Inc. ; f \ ¡ . 1'- ...., , ; -..