Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutWK September 28, 2004 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER. MINNESOTA 55304 . (763) 755-5100 FAX (763) 755-8923 . WWW.CI.ANDOVER.MN.US Special City Council Workshop Miscellaneous Business Items Tuesday, September 28, 2004 Council Chambers 1. Call to Order- 6:00 pm 2. Discuss Andover/Hanson Boulevard Intersection with Anoka County Representatives - Engineering 3. Discuss Lot Access/North I62nd Lane NW (Ralph Schafer) -Engineering 4, Award QuotelO4-31/1386 - I48th Lane NW/SS & WM - Engineering 5. Order Feasibility Report/02-33/ Andover Station North - Engineering 6. Council Review of Proposed 2005-2009 Capital Improvement Plan - Administration/Finance 7. Sewer Rate Study Presentation - Finance/Engineering 8. Sewer Staging Plan Modifications - Planning 9. Verbal Community Center Update - Administration 10. Other Business 11. Adjournment CB'1.A.t--~ OJ.:>..- C I l' Y o F (J,..A'\'\h 'I.{\..U \()- \ <1-ö4 NDOVE SPEClALANDOVER CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP MEETING -SEPTEMBER 28, 2004 MINUTES The Special Workshop Meeting of the Andover City Council was called to order by Mayor Mike Gamache, September 28, 2004, 6:05 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Councilmembers present: Don Jacobson, Mike Knight, Ken Orttel, Julie Trude Councilmember absent: None Also present: City Engineer, Dave Berkowitz City Administrator, Jim Dickinson Community Development Director, Will Neumeister Others AGENDA APPROVAL Add Item 8a, (Larry Emmerich Comprehensive Plan Amendment). Add Item lOa, Prairie Road Project. Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Knight, to approve the Agenda as amended above. Motion carried unanimously. DISCUSS ANDOVERlHANSON BOULEVARD INTERSECTION WITH ANOKA COUNTY REPRESENTATIVES City Engineer Berkowitz introduced the County Commissioners, Doug Fischer, County Engineer and Dave King from the Anoka County Sheriff's Department. Doug Fischer, County Engineer, discussed the AndoverlHanson Boulevard intersection, noting it has been problematic for quite some time. He stated it is a safe intersection, but from a capacity standpoint it is very poor with the four-way stop. He indicated Andover Boulevard has seen some improvement over time; they have taken out some stops, and added signals and lane modifications. He stated that unfortunately those improvements have exacerbated the traffic issues at the intersection of Andover Boulevard and Hanson Boulevard. Mr. Fischer explained that there are various project funding methods the County has used, however this intersection does not qualifY for most of them, and did not get put into a funding program. He stated the County does recognize this is a problem. He explained the options, such as doing something similar to Crosstown and Hanson Boulevard, which costs about $800,000 and would Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 2 require right of way acquisition, and is not in the County's program, nor does it qualifY for State funds through the Safety Program. He stated they have the intention to continue using federal funds to keep improving Hanson Boulevard, but those funds will not be available inunediately. Mr. Fischer indicated one solution they looked at and are proposing is to do minor lane modifications and a temporary signal, with a temporary widening of the road to solve the inunediate problem. He stated this could handle the traffic for the amount of time needed to get funds for a permanent solution. Mr. Fischer advised when they put a signal in an intersection they typically want a left turn lane in all directions. He stated they have enough width on Hanson to not have to widen it to do this, but would make the through lane and right turn lane the same. He indicated while this is not ideal, it should function well with the left turn lane. He stated they are still considering if they can just re-stripe the road without doing anything else, or if they will need to dig out the shoulder and extend the road. Mr. Fischer explained on Andover Boulevard they would need to widen it 6 feet on the County leg, but nothing would be needed on the City leg. He stated traffic signals alone are over $200,000, but he has enough spare parts to construct one with this type of intersection configuration. He indicated the conduit and other wiring would be new, but this will drastically reduce the cost of the project. He stated this proposal has been discussed with the County Commissioners, and would be a temporary solution at no cost to the City. He stated they hope to have a functioning signal by the end of the year. He reiterated they feel this project could bridge them until a full program was identified and funded in the future. Councilmember Ortte1 commented he was very happy to hear this information. Councilmember Jacobson clarified no additional right-of-way would be needed. Mr. Fischer stated that was correct. Councilmember Jacobson asked if they would have to re-route traffic. Mr. Fischer stated the design work has to be looked at still, but he believes they will have to re-route Andover Boulevard for a period of time; maybe a week or two. Councilmember Jacobson asked if the Bunker Lake Boulevard and Prairie Road intersection would be completed before that is done. City Engineer Berkowitz stated that work should be done in about three weeks, and would be open before this road was closed. Councilmember Trude stated the school bus company would need some time to prepare alternate routes, and the high school students would need some notice also. Mr. Fischer stated it would be three to four weeks before they even started. Councilmember Trude indicated the hardest part would be the trail, and they may have to bus the elementary students during construction, Councilmember Orttel asked if the lights would be timed. Mr. Fischer indicated they would have actual traffic sensors. Commissioner Berg stated they have had situations in the past where they have paid to bus walkers during construction, and could consider that. Councilmember Trude indicated it might be warranted j Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 3 here because there are a lot of kids that cross both Hanson and Andover Boulevards. Councilmember Knight stated he thinks every bit as bad will be student vehicular traffic. Councilmember Jacobson noted these are minor things they are bringing up, and he wants the Commissioners to know they are very grateful something will be done by the end of the year. Mr. Fischer stated they hope to be done by the end of the year. They will have to go out for bids on the signal work for the installation, but the roadwork they may be able to tack onto another project. He stated they have a meeting tomorrow with Conexus on one power line that would interfere with the signals. He indicated that unfortunately there are wetlands on both sides of Andover Boulevard so they will have to work with the Watershed District to get permits to build anything. Councilmember Orttel expressed that if there is anything the Councilor City Staff can do to help the County should let them know. He stated this is a big issue for them and they are very grateful. City Engineer Berkowitz advised that with the road closure they would make the road improvements, and then open the road while the signal work was being done. Mr. Fischer stated they may not need to close it at all; with shorter daylight hours they may be able to work within the optimum hours, and he does not anticipate they would need to close Hanson at all. Councilmember Trude stated trails are a big issue on County roads. She explained this is a big area for development, and anytime they can get curb and gutter on the road it makes it easier for the city to put in trails. Mr. Fischer stated when they do a more permanent fixture they can discuss these Issues. Councilmember Trude thanked the Sheriff's Department for their advocacy in this issue. Dave King, Sheriff's Department, stated when Prairie and Bunker open back up, the Sheriff's Department will be pulling back their coverage, as they do not have the manpower to continue. He indicated he is sure the City will hear some complaints, but they feel that closure has caused extra traffic on Hanson that will ease when it is reopened. Councilmember Trude noted that Hanson Boulevard is still backed up to SA past 6:30 p.m. or more, Mr. King indicated they had to weigh public safety with public convenience. He stated the Sheriff's Department has overtime issues, and are having difficulty completing their contract with the City of Andover. Councilmember Orttel questioned if they would be able to re-direct the traffic back to Prairie Road. He stated they have had a lot of problem with that intersection going to the west on Andover Boulevard. He wonders if the County can look at restructuring left turns at certain hours. Mr. Fischer stated with the opening of Round Lake Boulevard, that corridor will be better, and hopefully will take some pressure off Hanson Boulevard. Councilmember Trude argued that a lot of the traffic is coming from the new developments on Hanson. Mr. Fischer reiterated if they can get the lanes at Hanson and Andover Boulevard ready and get a traffic light up it would help. They will Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 4 evaluate it and see what is best. Councilmember Orttel expressed concern that Prairie Road will be done and functional by the end of October, so they could be without traffic control from the Sheriff's Department for a couple of months until the light on Hanson is up. Mr. King indicated they would continue to monitor this and see what they can do. He stated the Sheriff is aware of the issues, but this has been going on for a couple of years and they have to evaluate their manpower. He indicated they have other cities with intersection problems now, too. Mr. Fischer indicated it is a concern that if they solve this problem it will create a new one, but the County has to take them one at a time. He stated they have these issues Countywide; it is not a unique problem to Andover. He reiterated if the Sheriff's Department responded to each intersection that had traffic it would use all their manpower. Councilmember Knight stated he believes the problem is people are ignoring the local traffic on1y sign, He indicated he can understand why the people who live there get upset. Mayor Gamache thanked the County Commissioners and Staff for their consideration on Hanson and Andover Boulevards. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated he has been working with the Anoka County Highway Department and meeting with businesses on Hanson Boulevard concerning closures for 2006. He reviewed the various areas, noting they are proposing to tie the access for ABC Mini Storage and Spur together with a frontage road. He stated both of those businesses are wondering if the City would consider cost sharing, He indicated the cost for the project would be about $25,000. He stated they would do a feasibility report, but the thought is to remove the Spur access and tie it into the ABC Mini Storage access with a frontage road. Councilmember Jacobson asked if it could be split three ways; between the City and the two businesses. City Engineer Berkowitz stated he thinks that is a reasonable proposal. Councilmember Trude asked if there was discussion about doing a trail when they do the road project. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated there would be a trail on both sides as part of the federal application. City Engineer Berkowitz stated as you move north toward SA, they have talked about removing that access. He indicated SA is not happy about it, but understands the traffic concerns. Councilmember Trude indicated when she was on the transportation committee they talked about a frontage road all the way back to the light, but that would go across the clinic parking lot. She stated there was a lot of concern about that. City Engineer Berkowitz stated he talked to the clinic and SA at the same time, and the clinic was actually happy about the fi"ontage road. Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 5 DISCUSS LOT ACCESS! NORTH I6:zND LANE NW City Engineer Berkowitz stated they have a concern from Ralph Schafer, who has no means to access his property by roadway. He explained that at some point between 1989 and 1993 a wetland area near the road easement was dug out, expanding a pond across the road easement. He noted this was done without the knowledge or approval of the City. City Engineer Berkowitz further explained that Mr. Schafer is now requesting permission to re-fill the area that was dug out in the road easement so that he can have access to his property. He stated Mr. Schafer would also need to remove some trees and brush along the 1 63rd Avenue easement in order to get a vehicle to his property. He stated that because this area may now be considered a mature wetland area, any work that is done would have to be approved by the Lower Rum River Watershed District. Mr. Mike Knutson, on behalf of Mr. Schafer, stated Mr. Schafer does not feel he should have to bear the cost of filling a pond that private homeowners dug out across city-owned property. City Engineer Berkowitz advised Staff talked to both residents, and Mr. Harris moved in after the pond was already there. He stated in respect to the Ericksons, you can see the pond on a 1989 aerial map, and it has not changed much. He indicated the way he understands it is that any changes that were made were made by the homeowners before Mr. Harris moved in. City Engineer Berkowitz stated there were three options. The City could try to fmd out who dug it out and get them to fill it back in, or they could let Mr. Schafer re-fill it at his cost, or the City could pay to have the work done. Councilmember Knight stated more than filling is required. It would require grading and tree clearing also. Councilmember Trude stated there are property right issues here because now Mr. Schaefer is landlocked. She indicated he may need to work with a land lawyer, and may be able to get an easement by necessity. Mr. Knutson stated when Mr. Schafer bought the land it was accessible, and for several years he could drive in there. Councilmember Jacobson explained that until a road is put in Mr. Schaefer would need an easement, because there is no road to it and he has a landlocked parcel. He indicated that while Mr. Schaefer may have been able to drive back to it, for legal purposes it was landlocked when it was purchased. Mr. Knutson indicated Mr. Schafer was able to drive through public domain to get to it. Councilmember Jacobson advised that until the City actually builds a street to the property, Mr. Schaefer would be unable to get a building permit. Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 6 Councilmember Trude stated she thinks Mr. Schafer's best course of action is to get a property lawyer to try to get an easement to cross the property from the person he bought the land from so he can gain access to the property. Councilmember Orttel suggested they have the City Attorney look at it, and if Mr. Schafer has a right to a public easement access. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated the City Attorney has recommended that Mr. Schafer does have a right to access, but that he should have to pay for it. He advised that when Mr. Shafer approached the City he said he wanted to build a home. He indicated when Staff told rum he would need to build a road to do that; Mr. Shafer stated he just wants access. Councilmember Jacobson stated he does not have a problem with Mr. Shafer filling in the area ifhe pays for it and gets the permits he needs from the Watershed District. City Engineer Berkowilz indicated the Watershed District would need to review it and make that determination. Mr. Knutson asked when the Watershed District took authority. He indicated the City said they did not even know there was a pond there. City Engineer Berkowitz stated the Watershed Districts started in 1991. He clarified that Staff did not say they did not know there was a pond, but rather that they did not know it had been expanded. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated Todd Haas is Andover's representative on the Watershed District. He stated Mr. Shafer will have to put together an application with what he intends to do and bring it to the Watershed District. Mr. Knutson clarified that Staffhad spoken with the Ericksons, and they said they had nothing to do with it. City Engineer Berkowitz stated the Ericksons indicated they were aware work had been done, but they had nothing to do with it; it was the previous neighbors. AWARD QUOTE/04-3I/1386-148TH LANENW/SS & WM Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Knight, to approve quotes and award the contract to Hydrocon in the amount of $41,693.00 for Project 04-31, 1386 148th Lane NW. Motion carried unanimously. ORDER FEASIBILITY REPORT / 02-33/ ANDOVER STATION NORTH Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Knight, to approve the resolution ordering the preparation of a feasibility report for Andover Station North, Project 02-33, Motion carried unanimously. (Resolution RI60-04) COUNCIL REVIEW OF PROPOSED 2005-2009 CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PLAN Acting City Administrator Dickinson stated there are many people here on the trails, and Staff has Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 7 information from public works, and also information from the fire chief. Councilmember Trude noted on the trail scenarios there is one missing from their discussion in April, which was/from Andover Elementary on the iiOUtH side of Hanson Boulevard. ¡. uliè'io U.llÁC. ~ I()_\CI_~: City Engineer Berkowitz indicated what the Council has before them are locations designated A, B and C, which represents the areas on which Staff receives the most concerns. He stated they are mostly to get kids within two miles of a school on paths rather than roads. City Engineer Berkowitz advised the first is Hanson Boulevard NW from I55th Lane NW to 161" Avenue NW. He stated this has been the location where a trail is most requested, and is designated as a walker area for middle and elementary students. He noted there are DNR wetlands and other regulated wetlands under the Wetland Conservation Act that need to be dealt with in conjunction with this trail, and the cost estimate for this section of trail is $150,000. City Engineer Berkowitz further advised the second section is Crosstown Boulevard NW from 139th Avenue NW to 141" Lane NW, with the cost of this section being $30,000. He stated the third trail proposed is I57th Avenue NW between Prairie Road NW and Kumquat Street NW, with a cost estimate of $230,000, which does not include a separate railroad crossing for the trail. He stated additional right-of-way would be needed for the railroad crossing. He also noted one reason they have not done this is because it could expand to a cul-de-sac, and at that time right-of-way would be taken. Councilmember Trude noted her on1y concern is that last spring they had options A-D, and now the one with a retaining wall that was costly has been dropped. City Engineer Berkowitz stated it had a small gap, but steep side slopes and no curb so a trail would be difficult to put in. Councilmember Jacobson asked how much money they have fornext year. City Engineer Berkowitz advised they do not want to spend much more than they collect in anyone year, and they have about $130,000 for next year. Councilmember Trude asked if option C would drop substantially if they stopped the trail at the railroad tracks for now. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated it would. He stated they included this one because Staff does receive quite a few calls that this is still in walking range. He indicated Staff has met with the residents in Chesterton Commons to talk about a connection, but the residents are adamantly against it, and the City would have needed to get trail easements. Councilmember Orttel asked how many parcels are involved. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated they would need easements from four parcels; three are not interested, one was mildly interested. City Engineer Berkowitz explained that tonight they want to put together the capital improvement plan so everyone knows where they are going for the next three years. He indicated from a financial standpoint they could look at Option A next year, then as the City re-coups the trail funds they could do Option B, and then Option C the following year, in 2007, depending on the amount of money in Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 8 the trail fund. City Administrator Dickinson advised that they do cash flow projections for the park dedication fees and trail funds, and they could do option A, but would want to make sure they have cash available before starting the other projects. Councilmember Jacobson thinks the residents should know the City is being forced to expand the trails because the School District reduced the busing. He indicated they cannot build all the trails they want, but are doing what they can. Councilmember Orttel stated he thinks they should see how many kids would use each trail so they can see where there would be the greatest impact. Councilmember Trude agreed, indicating one criterion they have used in the past is areas without shoulders, which is a dangerous situation. She indicated she is also sensitive to where the kids are coming from. She stated the new developments are paying the trail fees, but the older areas are often benefiting from them. She noted the Council had brought this up with the County earlier, informing them if they have curbs on the roads they can do trails cheaper and have the money to build more, Councilmember Knight asked about the possibility of putting in a temporary trail with crushed rock. City Engineer Berkowitz stated he would recommend they go as far as they can with bituminous. Councilmember Knight commented he understands the concern, but it better to have gravel than nothing at all. Mayor Gamache asked if Staff knew what the DNR requirements would be. City Engineer Berkowitz stated they may have to do some work with a boardwalk. Councilmember Knight noted that would give the City more liability. Mayor Gamache suggested they try to construct Option A in 2005, B in 2006 and C in 2007. He noted Option C may come along with more development, and Option B has other access options anyway. Councilmember Trude stated she still wants Staff to go back to the April report, where they said this year they would do Option E, because she is concerned they will have people come back and say the City promised a trail that is not there. Mayor Gamache thought the reason the other trail section was so high on the list is because Option A had too many issues, but many of those issues have been resolved and it may be do-able now. City Engineer Berkowitz stated that one thing worth mentioning is that almost every dollar in the trail fund is spent as quickly as possible on trails. Staff is trying to do the most with what they have as quickly as they can. Councilmember Orttel indicated the problem with Option C is it does not help bring kids all the way down, and they have to walk in the street in the blocked section. He stated they really cannot go Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 9 forward if the trail comes to an end before you get to your destination. He would suggest Staff work on that. He added that Option C would get more push when the other developments go through. Linda ,1470154'" Lane indicated she lives in one of the frrsthomes in the development. She indicated many of their children are middle schoolers, and getting to school is not very safe. She stated they want this trail for families also, who want to go to Bridgeman's with the family or to the Community Center walking or on bikes, but cannot right now. Michelle , 15192 Drake Street indicated they tried to get the County to lower the speed limit so it would be safer for the children and families, but the County said no. She stated they also asked if the County could do a school speed zone during school start and end, but were told that is mandated by the State, and can only be the length of the property. She indicated they tried to go through the cul-de-sac, but that did not work, either. She stated they are here to make it safe for all families; not just their homes, but also the houses that continue to be built. Linda _ invited the Council to come out in the morning and afternoon when the kids are traveling to school. She stated a trail would make it very safe for them. Councilmember Trude noted this trail section would also provide the families with a circle to use for walks, etc. Darren Lazan would prefer to have the Council take a better look at which trails are more appropriate, and not just base it on who made the most phone calls. He stated while he appreciates the traffic concerns on Hanson Boulevard, at least there is a bituminous shoulder. On Crosstown Boulevard it is a crumbling white line, and the speed limit is the same. If the City put two small sections in it wouJd serve several developments along Crosstown Commons. He does not know if his neighbor and he are expected to say they will wait for three years when there is no shoulder or any place to walk. There is one area where a small piece of trail would serve a lot of people. City Engineer Berkowitz stated the issue with that small section is they have never purchased right- of-way with the trail fund. That is not to say it cannot be done, but right-of-way may double the cost. He indicated Staff could work on this if Council so desires. Councilmember Orttel indicated part of the problem is the City has to go out of the County easement to buy their own easement. He wondered if there was a way they could lease the property until the parcel is sold when they could gain right-of-way. City Engineer Berkowitz clarified that when looking at segments A, B and C, while he stated they received a lot of phone calls about A, if you look at the development numbers it also makes sense. Councilmember Trude stated when they worked on the high school sidewalk it was difficult because it was intrusive to the homeowners. She thought maybe they could look at a narrow sidewalk and approach it as a safety issue. Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28. 2004 Page 10 A woman from the audience indicated she no longer takes Prairie Road, on the north side of Option C, to work because there are too many small children. She stated she has tried to walk it and you cannot; there is no place to walk or ride a bike. She indicated she will no longer drive on it because it is too dangerous with all the kids, and it will be worse in the winter. Councilmember Jacobson suggested they go with Option A, and then talk with the two residents opposed to the small section of C and see if they can lease the land and put ag-lime on it. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated they have what they need for Option A, but will need to work with the DNR on mitigation issues for wetlands. Councilmember Orttel indicated there is so much maintenance with a boardwalk, and they can be a hazard after a few years. He would prefer another way, if possible. Motion by Knight, Seconded by Jacobson, to instruct Staff to proceed with Option A as well as the short section of Option C immediately. Councilmember Jacobson thinks Staff needs to look at this a second time, and if the cost will be substantially higher they should come back to the Council. Councilmember Orttel stated if these trails are totally unfeasible he thinks they need to talk to the School District about contributing. He indicated he does not want to throw out the options because the work comes in higher. Councilmember Trude reiterated she does not want to forget about the option from April. She stated she thinks they made some promises and that trail should be on the plan somewhere, City Administrator Dickinson clarified the Council wants to proceed with Option A in 2005, and Options B and C as soon as possible after that. Councilmember Jacobson commented they need to look at ag-lime for some sections ifit would save the City some money. Councilmember Trude noted Blaine did something that was not up to normal City standards to get a trail to their high school about three years ago. She stated it might be worth talking to their City Manager. Motion carried unanimously. Kim Savaria, 13 820 Sycamore Street indicated they would like to discuss the closure of Bunker Lake Boulevard. Shè stated there is too much traffic using the local roads, with the main concerns being 138th Street, Palm Street, Sycamore Street, and Shadowbrook. She indicated traffic is too fast, especially with a bus stop and the entrance to Lions Park and bike trails, as well as trains stopping on the tracks. She stated she counted five trains in one hour tonight. She added last Friday a train stopped on the tracks for 15 minutes in the morning, and people are having problems just getting in and out of their driveways. Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 11 Ms. Savaria stated tonight she came down Bunker Lake Boulevard to Shadowbrook, and the traffic from Prairie Road to Palm Street was heavy which means it is being used as a direct route, not by local traffic. They feel there is not enough signage, with on1y one sign at Bunker and Hanson saying the road is closed, which most people do not even see. She added that coming to the meeting tonight she saw nothing that says the road is closed, and there needs to be more signs. She stated she spoke with the Mayor about temporary speed bumps, which would at least slow people down. She commented they are driving as if they are on Bunker Lake Boulevard. Chuck Horton, 934 138th Avenue indicated he lives right where all the cars go. Right at the path there is a sign that says the road is closed to through traffic, but people go through it anyway. He indicated people are moving the signs out of the way, and they cannot turn in their own driveways. They now have road rage going on, and he is concerned there is going to be a fight in his front yard soon. Pete Urban, 862 138th Avenue NW stated he has children that are picked up at the bus stops. His primary concerns are from the children's perspective, and while cars may be within the speed limit, they are going up on the curbs to get around traffic. He stated their kids are at risk because of this increased traffic. He has been parking his cars in the street to curb the speed, which is not good, either. He knows this is temporary, but they need something to curb the speed and amount of traffic going through there. A woman in the audience noted they are on1y seeing officers at off time; not heavy traffic times. She stated there are constantly big trucks going through there with concrete. Mayor Gamache thinks the big key is the comment about the road closed sign not being noticeable, and they should discuss where that should be placed. City Engineer Berkowitz stated Staff can review that, but as he stated earlier, the County reviews those requirements, and there is a sign that is being missed that says the road is closed. A male audience member indicated he lives on Palm Street, and can see Prairie Road from his house, and there are still cars going through on Prairie Road in spite of the fact that it is supposed to be closed. He has experienced people passing him on two lane roads when he tries to pull into his driveway. Councilmember Jacobson asked if the road were blocked completely, how the residents that live there would get in. The man indicated they could get in by the park, and would rather do that than risk their kids. Councilmember Trude stated the County was going to do improvements at Sycamore while they were doing Prairie Road, and asked what happened with that. City Engineer Berkowitz stated they want to do a change order to \he City's project. He indicated once the detour is pulled \hey will make the improvement with it open. He advised the detour was set up because of the curves in the area, and the hazards during construction. Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 12 Councilmember Knight explained the Council talked about this in length earlier. He stated the police are frustrated because un1ess they are standing there people are ignoring the signs. Mayor Gamache stated they have done temporary speed bumps in the past and had several issues; one was people going around the bumps into yards, the second is kids using the speed bumps at night with their bikes, and the third was cars speeding up and slowing down between the speed bumps. He indicated he would suggest flags on the signs, and a three way stop at the intersection. A male member of the audience stated he thinks they need to stop traffic further back. He indicated cars don't even see the signs; they need to be bigger. He stated it is fme to have an officer at Lions Park, but questioned if they could be ticketed if they come out at other areas. Councilmember Orttel noted it is difficult, because if someone says they are going to visit someone in the development it is hard to disprove. The man stated there were 30 cars between his driveway and Bunker; he knows who lives in the development, and these people did not. Councilmember Knight suggested they put an actual barricade up to cut it down to one lane on Andover and Prairie Road. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated Staff understands the issues, and signs are put up to deter traffic. If they barricade the street then they put the traffic back somewhere else where they end up with the same issues. He indicated they can look at the signage again. He noted they cleared some trees off the corners, and tried a lot of different things to keep the traffic out of there. He stated the Sheriff on1y has so many people available, and unfortunately during heavy traffic times is when they get the most calls. A female audience member asked why they could not put the 'no through traffic' sign in the middle of the road. City Engineer Berkowitz stated they try to put it so residents can get around it. Mayor Gamache asked about temporary stop signs. City Engineer Berkowitz stated they would have to review it with the City Attorney and the County, depending on placement. A female audience member urged the City to do something soon. She stated the signs are a good idea, and maybe brighter lights would help, She indicated on Palm and 138th there are trees you cannot see around. She stated something is going to happen, and she encouraged the City to take action soon. Councilmember Jacobson suggested they talk to the County about letting cars go through the County Park for a few weeks without charging them. City Engineer Berkowitz stated he would talk to the County about that. Councilmember Knight indicated he was upset that the crews have not been working everyday. He stated it on1y encourages irresponsible drivers when no one is out there working. He agreed they defmitely need a bigger barricade. City Engineer Berkowitz stated that unfortunately they deal with this every time they close a County road. He indicated this happened to be an easy work-around for some people. He stated Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 13 Staff will look into putting up bigger signs and will try to deter traffic by putting flags on the signs. A female audience member stated she was really disappointed in the City's response when she called with her concerns. She indicated the second day this was going on her daughter's back pack got hit by the mirror on a car going through a closed road; that is how close it was. She stated she called the City and was told she should go out and tell people they should not drive through there. She was really upset about the response. Mayor Gamache apologized for that kind of a response. The woman stated she is concerned about the great risk to their kids. Councilmember Knight stated he went by there on Saturday and was surprised at the number of large trucks in the area that should not have been there. Mayor Gamache indicated they will see what they can do, and will add some of the residents ideas to their own. He added they will get as many patrols in the area as they can. City Administrator Dickinson returned to the Capital Plan, advising that there is a memo from Fire Chief Winkel concerning Capital Improvement Plan items for the department. He explained that one is an auxiliary structure to house an existing power generator at fIre station # I. He stated the proposal is to build a structure about the size of a one-car garage and fmish it with similar block as currently used on the exterior of the fIre station. He noted that the generator is a high priority item for them to be able to use in the event of a power outage. He added it should be noted that the fire station is designated in the city emergency plan as an emergency operations center in the event of a disaster and needs to have a reliable source of power at all times. Councilmember Trude indicated she was at the fIre station this spring and saw the generator, and asked why they needed a structure so large. City Administrator Dickinson indicated if the City Council requested they build a lean-to rather than this building they could do that, but they are trying to put the commercial building standards on themselves. Councilmember Jacobson asked if they could not build it shed-sized. City Administrator Dickinson stated they could, and noted if the direction was not to use block, it would be less expensive as well. Councilmember Orttel asked why it could not be left in the station. City Administrator Dickinson indicated it does impede efficiency of operations, but they could delay the project. He noted it has been on the radar screen for some time, and this is the year it was scheduled to be done, but it could be put off. Councilmember Jacobson added his experience with generators is they can be put outside and they are usually fme. CounciImember Trude stated if staff could come back with less cost maybe they could consider it City Administrator Dickinson advised the second item is a rescue boat to conduct water and ice rescues. He stated the Council's question was on when and where it would be used, and the Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 14 response from the Fire Chief is that by the time the Anoka County Sheriff's Department boat, but the response time to an event in Andover is up to an hour, and has typically been used for recovery work, because the response time does not allow for rescue work to be accomplished. Mayor Gamache asked that the Fire Chief fmd out what other cities are doing, noting maybe they could share costs. City Administrator Dickinson reviewed the Public Works items, noting most of the remodeling and contracting items listed they would hope to do in house, which would cut the costs by 40%. He stated they would have to hire a contractor for some things, but much of it could be done in house. He could agree to bring this cost down to $150,000 and they will work within that number. City Administrator Dickinson stated the second item is in the water treatment facility to move things up off the ground, which provides for cheap storage space. Councilmember Trude questioned why they need this space on top of the 5600 square feet from the fue department. She asked if this could be pushed off for another year. Acting City Administrator Dickinson replied it could. He stated they did the mezzanine of the Public Works Building last year, and are trying to use temporary fixes to delay large facility structure costs. He agreed they could move it out to 2006. City Administrator Dickinson reviewed page 60, concerning portable versus permanent generators. City Engineer Berkowitz noted the generators would be covered under the sewer rates. Councilmember Jacobson questioned the $120,000 cost, in that case. City Engineer Berkowitz noted that was the full improvement. Acting City Administrator Dickinson stated the other item was County intersection upgrades, but what they did not hear tonight was Andover's cost for now. He indicated these would be updated. Councilmember Trude noted they may need to re-order the park improvements because she heard they may get the grant for the boat landing and would have to supply matching funds. City Engineer Berkowitz reviewed the proposed capital improvement projects, noting that the Crosstown Boulevard Trunk would go to the railroad tracks in 2005 and to Crosstown Boulevard in 2006. City Engineer Berkowitz noted that on page 5 of the supplemental handout, they put out for pro forma on sewer rates to 2008, but they are dependent on when Winslow Holasek moves forward. He indicated SEH has been working on water improvement needs for the City, and page 8 is the project to drill Well #9. The city owns the property it will be on, and what they need to determine is if it is feasible to run the transmission line. It may be more cost efficient to run water main when the Hanson re-development is done, which may not be feasible for 2005. He stated this needs more review. He added they want to get one more well into the treatment plant, Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 15 because it is sized for that. City Engineer Berkowitz advised page 9 covers their vulnerability assessment, and shows minor improvements they can do each year to make the water supply safer. He explained page 11 is the water main line along Andover and Hanson Boulevards. He indicated this cost could go down dramatically if they do it with the reconstruction of Hanson Boulevard. Councilmember Orttel asked if replacing three vehicles in one year is not a little much. City Administrator Dickinson indicated they look at the maintenance schedule, and if they can get another year nom the vehicles they do. He noted one is a smaller snowplow, with which they go through a transmission almost every year. Councilmember Trude asked why water funds are paying for snowplows, City Administrator Dickinson explained it comes from the water funds, but there are dollars from the General Fund going to support it. He stated he is a stickler for making sure the water funds stand on their own. Councilmember Knight noted he has well water, and was switching to a different softener company. He stated the salesman told him since Andover has gone to a different treatment they have had a higher number of calls for treatment. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated he has not heard that. Councilmember Trude noted she is seeing softer water at her house. City Engineer Berkowitz advised page 12 also ties into Well #9. If you add it up it is over $900,000 for one well. Councilmember Orttel asked why they were not using trunk funds to paint the water tower. City Administrator Dickinson advised that more than six years ago money was put into the Capital Equipment Reserve from the water fund, He stated while they have since changed this practice, they are doing it this last time to correct that, and will be paying for a water improvement from the Capital Improvement Fund. City Engineer Berkowitz advised on page 14, SEH asked if anyone had looked at above ground water storage, which they had not. He stated this would be a two million gallon elevated storage to meet the daily needs of water and fire at the 2020 build out. Councilmember Trude noted they did a big study about underground storage and why they needed more, and how it would take them to the rural reserve build out. City Engineer Berkowitz stated they would have SEH here to present their case, and he reviewed the numbers in relation to other cities. Councilmember Trude noted that based on those numbers, it sounds like they are not being given credit for the underground storage. Councilmember Orttel agreed, indicating they need a second option. He stated they have heard above ground storage is not needed anymore, and he is curious what the difference of opinion would be. Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 16 Councilmember Jacobson asked why they would tear down one to put up another. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated it would be best to let SEH advise on that, Councilmember Jacobson noted this is scheduled for 2008 anyway. SEWER RATE STUDY PRESENTATION City Administrator Dickinson noted that the sewer rate study analysis does not include the rural reserve, because to do that would be a whole different situation. He reviewed the rate projections, noting that by 2005 the fund is debt-free. Councilmember Orttel asked why they go back into debt in 2006. City Administrator Dickinson agreed that they do, but it is very manageable and cost efficient to do so. He noted if there is growth faster than anticipated that rates will change, and they will review the rates every year. He stated they may not go back into debt at all if cash flow is available. City Administrator Dickinson stated as of now the sewer system looks good. He indicated they made a correction in 1998 that really fixed the issues for the future. Councilmember Orttel verified this does not look at the rural reserve area. City Administrator Dickinson stated it does not, and they may have to look at it as Area A and Area B, with totally different systems. He indicated that thinking goes to the thought that development should support itself. SEWER STAGING PLAN MODIFICATION Community Development Director Neumeister advised City staff has met with over 90 property owners at three neighborhood meetings over the past two months and have informed them of the new sewer plan and the potential changes to the sewer staging plan. He stated it was explained how the proposed changes might affect the timing of new growth and development in their neighborhoods. Community Development Director Neumeister explained the comments made were that they would like us to change the staging timing, which would move some areas up; some to the 2005-2010 range, and some to the 2010-2015 range. He indicated they had one person come up to them tonight who would like them to consider another area currently green to be moved to orange. He stated another area asked them to move their area from orange to yellow. He explained this would cross the Crosstown line that they did not think they could service, and they will have to study this further to see if the Crosstown line could handle more. City Engineer Berkowitz noted that their sewer study is theoretical, and until they get a flow meter they cannot know for sure what they can handle. They were approached by a realtor to see if they could bring service to the back of some properties, but he has never heard of a city trying to service utilities from the back. Council member Jacobson stated he is not opposed to listening to people, but part of planning is deciding how they can develop, not just responding to requests. Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 17 Winslow Holasek noted there are seven lots on 154'\ and he talked to halfthe people, who did not want service. Community Development Director Neumeister indicated that was the impression they had also, but now two people came in that want service. He stated they need to talk about it at the staff level, and if they are going to do a lift station to do a few, it may be worth further study. He stated if they are going to do one side of 154'\ they should do both. City Engineer Berkowitz indicated people are asking now if they can come into Andover Boulevard. He stated staff has told them when the red area is done they can look at other areas. Community Development Director Neumeister stated they have told people it will be a progression. He indicated there are a lot of details going on with the studies, and they will talk at the staff level before October 26th, but will probably stay with the plan as it is now. He indicated if they push it up, it would be a political issue for the Council to deal with. Winslow Holasek suggested a different path the lines could take. City Engineer Berkowitz noted anytime they snake around they lose elevation, and lose how far out they can serve. Community Development Director Neumeister stated they would see slow growth about two to three years down unless the rural reserve starts developing, Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Orttel, to authorize the Public Hearing to be scheduled for the October 26, 2004 Planning Commission meeting. Motion carried unanimously. LARRY EMMERICH COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT Community Development Director Neumeister advised several months ago they started a Larry Emmerich Comprehensive Plan Amendment, which was the balance ofland east of 161 st in the rural reserve. He stated Mr. Emmerich put together a plan showing 91 lots; however staff told him on1y 85 lots were available. He indicated they have had some staff level conversations with the Metropolitan Council, and have a report from them, which is attached. He stated basically the Metropolitan Council is saying if we agree to three units per acre they would approve, which would require 14 acres be taken off and left in rural reserve, and to achieve this they would need a PUD, and would need some townhomes. Councilmember Jacobson stated when Andover put in the high school it was all settled, and now the Metropolitan Council does not want to agree to those terms. Community Development Director Neumeister indicated this is scheduled for their meeting on October 4th, and staffhas told them they do not know if the City Council would agree. Councilmember Orttel stated he wants to hold them to the agreement, which said they would average three units per acre. Mayor Gamache asked how it affects Andover's agreement with them. Councilmember Trude stated the agreement was for an average, but the Metropolitan Council is trying to look at each little development. Community Development Director Neumeister indicated the Metropolitan Council wants them at three overall, and 3.5 in the rural reserve. Councilmember Jacobson indicated the Council never agreed to 3.5 in the rural reserve. City Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 18 Administrator Dickinson stated Staff would have to tell the Metropolitan Council that the City Council does not agree, and also ask them to bring the documents they are saying shows that the Council agreed to 3.5. Councilmember Trude commented the Metropolitan Council is asking them to fight for each development. She indicated overall they may have three or more, but they do not need that in all developments. Councilmember Orttel agreed he wants to see the documents. City Administrator Dickinson agreed the big piece is that as an average they may attain three or 3.5, but on each Comprehensive Plan Amendment they are not going to reach that. Community Development Director Neumeister stated Staffhas told them repeatedly they are not going to be able to do townhomes in all the areas because of sewer limitations, but there are some areas that are townhomes, and are over four units per acre. City Administrator Dickinson commented the Metropolitan Council does not understand density and traffic. He stated he has talked to them at traffic meetings and they cannot respond. Councilmember Orttel asked what they are accomplishing by putting 14 acres in reserve for the Emmerich project. Councilmember Jacobson suggested they tell the Metropolitan Council no and see what they say. Community Development Director Neumeister stated they may turn down the Comprehensive Plan Amendment, so the Council needs to be prepared for that. He indicated they would have another chance to go on record on the transportation plan on October 22od; which is the last chance to comment, He stated they might want to go on written record. Councilmember Trude asked if it would help if a couple of the Councilmembers came to the next meeting. Community Development Director Neumeister indicated it would be beneficial if any were available. Winslow Holasek commented he was at a meeting at Ramsey where they took comments from the audience, and most said they want low density and lots of trails. VERBAL COMMUNITY CENTER UPDATE City Administrator Dickinson noted the Truth-in-Taxation continuation meeting cannot be on a regular City Council meeting night, so he is suggesting they schedule it for the following Tuesday, He stated the chances of going to a continuation meeting are very slim. City Administrator Dickinson advised that the underground piping is going into the ice arena, and some of the main structure is up. He indicated if any of the Council wants a tour to let him know. He stated it is starting to take shape, and they are still saying on time and on budget. He indicated they have not secured a donation for the scoreboard, but he thinks First Regions bank will come through. He explained the issue is the bank's Board meeting is not until later than they need a decision by in order to order the scoreboard. He asked if the City Council is willing to take the risk. Councilmember Orttel asked how much the scoreboard would cost. City Administrator Dickinson indicated $12,000 to $14,000. He stated the ones in the Field House are $3,000 to $4,000, but they - - Special Andover City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes - September 28, 2004 Page 19 need three of those. The Council indicated Staff should go ahead and order the scoreboard. Councilmember Trude asked if there was any response on the contributions flyer. City Administrator Dickinson stated they received about $6,000 to $7,000 the first week. ADJOURNMENT Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Knight, to adjourn the Special Andover City Council Workshop. Motion carried unanimously. The meeting was adjourned at 10:40 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Karen Buclden, Recording Secretary