Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutSP October 19, 2000 ~ ~ ~ ¡V1-éD CITY of ANDOVER 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W,· ANDOVER, MINNESOTA 55304· (763) 755-5100 FAX (763) 755-8923 Special Joint City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting October 19, 2000 7:00 PM 1, Mayor to Call to Order 2, Presentation of Accessibility Concerns/City Hall Park Complex #1 3, Update of New High School & Use of Fields at Sunshine Park 4, Update of the WDE Site/Ballfields & Hockey Rinks 5. Discuss Possibility of Skateboard/Rollerblade Facilities 6, Discuss Ordinance 10, Section 9.07/Park Dedication Requirements 7. Discuss the Use of Park Capital Improvement Budget 8. Discuss General Maintenance of Park System 9. Discuss Position of Park & Recreation Director 10. Discuss DNR Grants 11. Discuss the Proposed 2001 Trail Fee 12. Adjournment ~0vV \.JJ'ittw I \ - OJ -0 ù CITY of ANDOVER SPECIAL JOINT CITY COUNCIL & PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETlNG- OCTOBER 19, 2000 The Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting was called to order by Mayor McKelvey on October 19, 2000, 7:00 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover, Minnesota. Council Present: Mayor Jack McKelvey, Don Jacobson, Mike Knight, Tony Howard, and Ken Orttel. Commissioners present: Al Grabowski, Jim Lindahl, Dave O'Toole, Paul Anderson, and Valerie Holthus. Council Absent: There were none. Commissioners absent: Jeff Kieffer and Tom Anderson. Also present: Park Coordinator, Todd Haas Finance Director, Jim Dickerson Acting City Adnúnistrator, Dave Carlberg Public Works Superintendent, Frank Stone City Engineer, Scott Erickson Parks Department Supervisor, Kevin Starr JQP, Inc. Consultant on ADA, Ju1eeQuarve-Peterson PRESENTATION OF ACCESSIBILITY CONCERNS/CITY HALL PARK COMPLEX #1 Julee Quarve-Peterson, representing JQP, Inc., presented to the Council and Commission a report reviewing the accessibility concerns specifically the playground structures at Andover City Hall Park Complex #1. She explained that there are two important things to remernber when looking at a playground; accessibility and safety. She mentioned that one reason there seems to be a problem is that there is no permit required to build a playground structure, nor is there ever a fma1 inspection at the completion of the construction, however the problem arises because the City is still liable. She mentioned that maintenance is a key factor in keeping a playground safe. She stressed the importance that future planning is essential since Andover is such a growing community, and lawsuits are taking place when playgrounds aren't accessible to everyone and/or safe. She also mentioned that there is no special pool of money that the City can pull from to help assist with the funding, but instead some of the fmancia1 resources can be Kiawanis Clubs, Lions Clubs, Health Facilities, etc. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 2 Councilmember Jacobson questioned why the Council is meeting with the Commission and what the Commission is requesting from the Council. Commissioner O'Toole stated that in years past the Commission has requested funding to maintain the parks, but for some reason never seems to have much luck. Chairman Lindahl stated that not maintaining and upgrading the Park System is a direct loss for the City. He mentioned that the Commission doesn't feel they have had the amount of dollars needed to accomplish what needs to be done. Ms. Jacobson explained that even though the City of Andover is in pretty good shape, the Commission is requesting additional funds so they can be maintained properly. Chairman Lindahl stated that in order to accomplish what needs to be done in tenns of accessibility and safety the cost differences are significant and the yearly budget doesn't include enough dollars. Commissioner O'Toole stated that the Commission is not able to maintain the parks that the City already has on just the Capital Improvement Budget. He requested the Council to develop a plan. Chairman Lindahl mentioned that there are not only changes that need to be done regarding the replacement of some structures, but also there needs to be a lot of upgrades in order to be accessible. Councilmember Orttel stated that part of the problem is that there is no specific agency saying you need to do these certain things to be in compliance. He agreed that the Council needs to set up a program aside from the Capital Improvement Budget to make the changes necessary. Chairman Lindahl stated that the Commission has been trying to make progress on these issues, but [md it difficult since there is no money available. Commissioner O'Toole stated that he agrees with Councilmember Ortte1 that a plan needs to be put in place in order to anything accomplished. Ms. Quarve-Peterson noted the guidelines the attorney's and law offices are using when looking at accessibility and safety in playgrounds. Commissioner O'Toole questioned if Ms. Quarve-Peterson is familiar with a specific park that is located in Hastings. Ms. Quarve-Peterson stated that she hasn't seen the park facility in Hastings, however has seen some very large and impressive structures that do meet all of the safety and accessibility standards. Councilmember Knight mentioned that years ago the legal system was set up that one could be sued if a person was hurt and you would still be liable. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19. 2000 Page 3 Counci1member Jacobson questioned the Commission on how much money they feel they would need for the project. Mr. Dickerson stated that last year the budget was for $30,000 and for the year 2001 it is $40,000. Mr. Erickson mentioned that the CDBG Funding would probably not be available next year. He went on to explain why. Mr. Starr mentioned that if the City continues to build new parks and not keep up the old parks, the problem will only become worse. Councilmember Jacobson questioned the Commission on exactly what they wanted ftorn the Council. Chairman Lindahl stated that the Commission doesn't have the specifics down on paper, but instead are first requesting the support ftom the Council. Commissioner O'Toole stated that the Commission would like to see a plan created with additional funds in order to accomplish the items in that plan. Commissioner Holthus questioned Ms. Quarve-Peterson if she could give a rough figure as to how much money it would take to complete just the City Hall Park Complex # I. Ms. Quarve- Peterson stated that a rough figure would be around $10,000, which wouldn't include replacement of the large structure. Mr. Starr stated that he does recommend that the playground structure at the City Hall Complex # I is pulled and replaced. Ms. Quarve-Peterson stated that typically a budget for an 8-10 playground structure is $30,000. Commissioner Holthus commented that $30,000 is the budget for the whole year. Councilmember Ortte1 questioned whether or not vandalism is a continued problem. Mr. Starr stated that it is defmitely a problem. Counci1member Ortte1 stated that the City needs to address the vandalism problem that is taking place, he suggested there possibly be civil action that takes place. Mr. Haas stated that the County Park and Recreation Director also agrees that vandalism is a current problem around the metro area. He stated that they are in the process of putting a letter together to send to the Anoka County Judge. Mr. Starr mentioned that every piece of lumber on the yellow structure was replaced about 7-8 years ago. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 4 Councilmember Orttel questioned Mr. Starr if it is not uncommon to pull something and leave a vacant spot instead of putting in a replacement. Mr. Starr stated that there has been times when they have pulled a piece of equipment, but only when it has become a life and death threat. Ms, Quarve-Peterson stated that emergency rooms have said that the most important safety issue is seeing to that the best surface material available is what is being used. Mr. Starr explained that most of the City's sand ranges from 6-S inches, which is low. Councilmember Ortte1 questioned whether or not the thickness of the sand is an issue. Mr. Starr stated that the thickness of the sand is critical when it comes to safety. Councilmember Knight questioned if what the Commission is requesting is two separate funds. One to bring everything into ADA compliance, and the other to upgrade the existing structures. Mayor McKelvey stated that often times when the parks get that bad they need to be replaced completely. Councilmember Knight questioned what the average life is for a playground structure. Mr. Starr stated that the vendors would tell you that anything older than 1993 should be replaced. Commissioner Holthus stated that if the City did establish a fund for the ADA, it would represent a good faith effort from the City if a lawsuit situation did arise. Mr. Starr mentioned that the last three years they have asked for $25,000 to maintain the existing structures, however that only takes care of two structures. Councilmember Knight mentioned that the problem will never go away completely since they will always wear out. Counci1member Jacobson questioned if the Commission would be satisfied with another $40,000. He questioned if there would be someway to include that in the budget when it is approved for 2001. He suggested the Commission decide which areas are most critical to address and then each year the fund would be replenished. Commissioner O'Toole stated that in years past the Commission has put the plans together but never seem to receive the funding. He stated that the most important thing is that they have the support from the Council. Mr. Carlberg stated that it will become much more difficult to get CDBG Funds in the year 2001. Chair Lindahl stated that the Commission has also been holding back on accepting new park areas for the past few years. He mentioned that there is a field usage need, and those areas are really in need of parks. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 5 Mr. Haas commented that the park board is always very good about making sure the area is good and the park will be used when accepting new parks. Commissioner Holthus mentioned that an ongoing item on the agenda for the Commission is selling parks to help generate revenue. Mr. Dickerson stated that the two things to look at at then end of the year are if there is money left over and the Comprehensive Plan with the Capital Improvement Plan. He stated that those areas are the best ones to consider. Councilmember Orttel stated that it might be wise to have a separate fund for the accessibility issues, since every year there are funds carried over but they are also needed in a number of areas. Mr. Dickerson stated that they also could go through the General Levy Fund. Commissioner O'Toole questioned if there is interest in keeping the communication going , through using consultants or other experts to assist with addressing the most critical areas. Councilmember Orttel stated that it is probably up to the Commission once you have decided what it is you want to accomplish. Mr. Starr mentioned that this is just one park and there are probably another nine parks needing changes. DISCUSS POSSIBILITY OF SKATEBOARDIROLLERBLADE FACILITIES Mr. Haas explained that a skateboard/rol1erblade facility is being proposed and is shown on the WDE plan, which will accommodate the users at the south end of the City. He stated that the facility at the WDE site would need to be approved by the EDA. He mentioned that staff previously provided an article to the City Council and the Commission regarding the popularity of this sport that was in the Star Tribune Newspaper. Counci1member Knight questioned where the facility would be located. Mr. Haas stated that it would be located by Sunshine Park. Councilmember Orttel questioned if there would need to be supervision ofthe sight. Mr. Haas stated that as long as the requirements of the facility are met there would not need to be supervision. Mr. Erickson suggested that further research be done to compare with what other cities are doing. .. , - Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19,2000 Page 6 Councilmember Jacobson questioned what kind of surface material would be used. Mr. Haas stated that they are unsure at this time. Ms. Quarve-Peterson mentioned that she has worked on a project in Brooklyn Park and the problems they had weren't with the facility itself but instead with the breaking of glass and the inability to stock the pop machines efficiently. Counci1member Jacobson questioned what a ball park figure would be for the facility. Mr. Haas stated that they are unsure at this time. Councilmember Ortte1 questioned the kids in attendance as to whether or not they can rollerblade and skateboard on the same facility. The kids stated that they can rollerblade and skateboard using the same facility. Councilmember Knight questioned if the City is responsible if the kids don't wear helmets and are injured. Ms. Quarve-Peterson mentioned that in Grand Marais, Minnesota they have a sign posted on the premises that if a City official witnesses anyone without a helmet on they have the right to throw you off the facility. Chairman Lindahl stated that it might make it worth it for the City to have someone sitting there. Councilmember Jacobson stated that he had heard that at the last park board meeting there was some concerns fÌ'om some comnússioners that weren't in favor of Sunshine Park as the site. Comnússioner O'Toole mentioned that there are concerns regarding the vandalism that will probably go with it, however it may take the load off the parks. Mayor McKelvey stated that some of the vandalism is due to skateboarding and not necessarily intentionally. Councilmember Knight stated that Sunshine Park seems like a more logical site. Councilmember Jacobson stated that there is only so much money available so the Commission needs to decide what they want to focus on and where they want to spend it. Commissioner O'Toole stated that a lot of it would come down to Park Dedication Fees, which will come up later on the agenda. He mentioned that Park Dedication Fees would pay for this facility. Councilmember Orttel questioned the reason the Comnússion put this item on the agenda. He stated that the Council probably would approve it if the Comnússion were willing to put the funds into the facility. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 7 Councilmember Ortte1 stated that it is a legal issue and should be addressed by the attorney and should be in writing. Councilmember Knight stated that he feels Sunshine Park would be a better location for the facility . Commissioner O'Toole stated that if the site were located at Sunshine Park it wouldn't be able to be very big, Mr. Haas stated that if it is the consensus of the Commission and the Council he along with other staff will do research and fmd out what other cities are doing for their facility. He suggested that a task force committee be created consisting Councilmembers of, Commissioners, and 2-3 kids that are present tonight. Commissioner Grabowski suggested that the City look at other cities that have built facilities such as this and not make the same mistakes that they have made. Councilmember Jacobson stated that the consensus is to go ahead and begin planning for the facility, however the Council hasn't said here's the money nor when the money will be available. UPDATE OF NEW HIGH SCHOOL & USE OF FIELDS AT SUNSHINE PARK Mr. Carlberg explained that the City is working to acquire additional land for the high school site for potentially 3 ballfields. Mr. Erickson explained that they are looking at 3 softball size fields with 200-foot outfields. He mentioned that there would possibly be some wetland fill. He also mentioned that the next step is for them to receive authorization to begin work with the property owner in acquiring the acres. Mayor McKelvey stated that the only way to reuse the land is to go through condemnation. Commissioner O'Toole questioned if 3 ballfields will fill the requirements of the school. Mr. Carlberg stated that it would fill the requirements. Commissioner O'Toole questioned if there is a plan for any soccer fields. Mr. Carlberg stated that there is a joint agreement with the City and the school that we can use their fields and they can use ours. Mr. Carlberg explained that the dollars would be put towards the acquisition. Mr. Dickerson explained that the dollars set aside were coming out of the PIR Fund. He mentioned that as they keep coming available the money needs to be allocated to the projects. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes- October 19,2000 Page 8 Mr. Dickerson stated that it is possible the City won't spend what was projected. Councilmember Orttel stated that it is also possible it is more than what was projected. Mr. Carlberg stated that the condemnation is not for the price of land, but possibly for the Ag Preserve. Commissioner Grabowski questioned Mr. Carlberg on whether or not anyone has talked with the associations. Mr. Carlberg stated that he has not yet talked with the associations, however mentioned that it is the next step. Commissioner Grabowski questioned how the limitations were set on the fields. He mentioned that the Commission has had concerns for months but haven't discussed anything since there was supposed to be a joint meeting with the Planning Commission, school, etc. Councilmember Orttel stated that at one time the meeting was discussed because of voluntary use for the bal!fie1ds. He stated that some of the questions were how much of the year would the City have use, and/or would the City and the school overlap use. Commissioner Grabowski stated that girls softball ends around May 15, and the associations start in June. Councilmember Orttel questioned if the school and the associations can use the fields at the same time. Commissioner Grabowski stated that it would depend on the distance. Councilmember Orttel stated that the City needs to fmd out if the fields will have meaningful use to the City before deciding for sure if we want to share the use of the fields. Councilmember Knight stated that that is the reason he suggests that one or more of the park board members create the rules. Mr. Carlberg stated that the City did have one meeting with the school district where Commissioner O'Toole sat in and was able to discuss issues. He stated that from there, there hasn't been anything further to discuss. Commissioner Grabowski stated that he wasn't at the meeting but heard there was a representative from Blaine that had said Sunshine Park would be more than adequate. He disagreed. Commissioner Grabowski suggested Mr. Haas set up a meeting with the school district, Council, and Commission. , Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 9 Councilmember Jacobson stated that if there is a meeting with the school district then it should go through staff to create that meeting. Commissioner Grabowski agreed and suggested Mr. Haas set up the meeting. Commissioner O'Toole mentioned that the school is most likely going to insist on them being able to play completely over there. Councilmember Ortte1 agreed and just mentioned that he hopes the City will be able to get some use out of the fields. Commissioner Grabowski stated that the City and the school will not be able to use the fields at the same time or they will get wore out. Mr. Carlberg stated that it should be the task force committee's responsibility to work out those issues. Councilmember Knight proposed that the City look at putting up a dome/ice rink combination. He stated that he has done some research and found out that 10 have gone up in the metropolitan area in recent years. He explained that all of them involved a bonding referendum. He mentioned that all of them seem to be paying for themselves. He suggested that a committee consisting ofCouncilmembers, Commissioners, Association members, etc. be created if it is something the City wants to pursue. Mayor McKelvey questioned if the City would own the facility. Councilmember Knight stated that the City would indeed own the facility. Counci1member Knight stated that sooner or later it will be a request from the citizens. Mayor McKelvey mentioned the land off of Hanson Blvd. and 133rd A venue as a possible location, Councilmember Jacobson mentioned concerns about the WDE site since it is the last commercial site in Andover. He stated that he is cautious and is not convinced at this point that it is the best proposal for the site. Councilmember Knight stated that the facility he is proposing wouldn't function in any other way, and it would only be necessary to break even. Commissioner Grabowski mentioned that from his experience a single ice arena has a difficult time making money. He stated that he wouldn't have a problem with it as long as it made money. Councilmember Knight stated that he wouldn't even be bringing it up if the facility wouldn't pay for itself. He mentioned that the City is invited to tour the facility at Stillwater if they so choose. Councilmember Ortte1 stated that the WDE site could not be used for this type of a facility since a building would be required. - , ~ Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 10 Commissioner Grabowski explained that the reason the WDE site is being proposed to have 4 ballfields, and hockey rinks because a building can't be built on that land. Councilmember Knight stated that he doesn't believe that it would push out any businesses or discourage any. Councilmember Orttel mentioned that the beauty of using the county site is because we can share the parking lot. Councilmember Knight stated that he doesn't have a problem with that site, but instead is just throwing out another idea. Councilmember Orttel questioned the cost that would be involved. Councilmember Knight stated that it is 135-150 per hour. Commissioner O'Toole stated that in previous years there was a proposal that did include an ice arena, golf, and soccer, however it was rejected for a number of reasons. Councilmember Jacobson stated that the major decision is that if one were constructed would it be located on the county land, the WDE site, or somewhere else. Councilmember Jacobson stated that if the City owns it then we would be responsible for the maintenance, upkeep, etc. of the facility. Councilmember Knight stated that he understands the concerns, which is part of the exploration process when it is discussed and those issues are determined. He mentioned that now is the time to begin the process since there is the interest, however if we wait it could become a demand in the future. Commissioner Grabowski stated that the other issue is that it would need to go through a bond and then what happens if it doesn't pass. Councilmember Orttel stated that it is a quantive leap from what most associations have done. He stated that doing a bond could be risky. Councilmember Ortte1 stated that since the meeting was being televised he wanted to let everyone know that if anyone is interested in becoming involved they should contact the City Hall and they could become involved with the Commission, and City Council in future discussions. UPDATE OF THE WDE SITE/BALLFlELDS & HOCKEY RINKS Councilmember Howard questioned whether or not the City is in great need for additional ball fields. Mr. Carlberg explained the different options before the Commission and Council. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 11 Counci1member Howard questioned if the turf would be astro turf in the dome facility. Counci1member Knight explained that that is what he was suggesting if hockey was included. Councilmember Howard mentioned that if they had astro turf on two fields, then hockey would end up taking away a lot of the fields. Councilmember Ortte1 questioned if there was a skating facility as well. Mr. Carlberg stated that the EDA was concerned about using the commercial areas and using land that could be put into commercial use. Mr. Carlberg stated that there is a meeting scheduled for November 14 with the EDA to clarifY some of the layouts. He explained that what is being presented tonight are the plans that the City received back in June. Mayor McKelvey questioned the reason the park board wanted to add two fields for Shadowbrook. Commissioner O'Toole explained that the park board is in favor of having all the fields at one location to make it easier for families. He stated that four fields are necessary in terms of demand. Counci1member Ortte1 questioned if there would be room for the 4 fields if the dome that Councilmember Knight suggested were built. Commissioner O'Toole stated that that there are other larger pieces of park land around the City that could also be possibilities. He mentioned that he hasn't done the research to detemúne if anything could be developed, but stated it would be worth checking out. Mr. Carlberg questioned the reason the Park Commission wanted this item on the agenda. Mr. Haas stated that primarily it was for the number of ballfields. Councilmember Knight stated that the advantage to having a facility in a commercial area is that it would bring in a restaurant like Perkins. Mayor McKelvey suggested the land off of 133rd A venue and Hanson Blvd. as a possible location. Councilmember Orttel questioned whether or not it is useful to have a hockey facility next to the high school. Mayor McKelvey explained that the school district would like having a facility, however they also don't mind transporting the athletes. Commissioner Grabowski stated that if you look at other cities you would fmd that they also transport the athletes. Mayor McKelvey stated that the school district would rather rent ice space. - ' Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 12 Councilmember Ortte1 questioned where Counci1member Knight's idea is left. Mayor McKelvey stated that it will be looked into in further detail. DISCUSS ORDINANCE 10, SECTION 9.07/PARK DEDICATION REQUIREMENTS Chairman Lindahl explained that when the Commission looks at the previous years funding there has been a loss of revenue with the system that is currently in place. He stated that the City needs to come up with a plan whether it be going back to the 10% and a multi-zoned, or going with a per unit cost. Councilmember Jacobson questioned the reason the Commission is suggesting the City go back to the 10% when that is what it originally was and the Commission requested it be changed. Councilmember Jacobson stated that if there were a higher density the unit-based price would give you more than the 10%. Chairman Lindahl stated that is why they are suggesting the 10% for the rural areas and the multi-housing is a cost per unit. Councilmember Jacobson questioned the reason the Commission is requesting to go back to the 10%. Commissioner Grabowski explained the view of the Commission. Councilmember Ortte1 stated some of the problem is that when it changes or is rezoned to multiple the City doesn't get anything for it, and therefore the Park Commission is out that money. He stated that there needs to be research done, he questioned how the PUD's should be handled. Mr. Carlberg explained that the higher the density the higher the pay, the problem arises when there is a rezoning. Councilmember Knight questioned ifthe problem in the past is that the City couldn't agree with the developer. Mayor McKelvey commented that this past year has been very unusual and things seem to change a lot. Mayor McKelvey stated that part of the problem is that the City has used the appraisals, but they say this and we say that and so there is some confusion. Councilmember Jacobson stated that another thing the City has to look at is the trail fee. Councilmember Knight questioned how the 10% would be figured. Chairman Lindahl explained that originally when it was at 10% the resident could offer X amount and the City then requested the appraisal, however if it seemed biased then the City reappraised the property. He stated that it became a problem when the values began jumping Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 13 all over. He stated that if the City decides to stay within the unit cost then it has to be adjusted. He agreed that the unit cost does work well with the multiples. Commissioner O'Toole mentioned that he can only remember two different times when there was a change made with the 10%. He stated that generally the developer were fme with it. Councilmember Knight stated that he was under the understanding that the City got away from the 10% because of the developers having problems with it. Commissioner O'Toole stated that it was a perceived problem. Councilmember Jacobson stated that the unit price would be so much easier. Chairman Lindahl stated that the other concern is that when they pay they are paying last years park dedication fee, so the City is still losing out. Councilmember Knight stated that that is a good point. Commissioner O'Toole stated that he wasn't at the last park board meeting but to his understanding $1800 would get us to this years price. He stated that the City is already so behind. Councilmember Jacobson stated that it has to have a relationship to the land value to keep the City out of trouble. He agreed that it should probably be raised for the upcoming year, but the question remains as to how much to raise it. Commissioner O'Toole stated that the Park Commission would like to go back to the 10% and have the multiple per unit. He stated that the Woodland Development cost the City $70,000. Councilmember Ortte1 explained that the City didn't really loose $70,000 on the Woodland Development. He went on to explain why. He suggested that where it is really offis out in the country because they have such minimal use of the parks. Commissioner Holthus explained that the Commission is suggesting it be $1400 per unit for multiples, 10% per acre, and then a special clause for all PUD's. Councilmember Knight questioned if the maximum number of homes could be used instead for aPUD. Counci1member Ortte1 stated that the goal is to try and get something to equal I 0%, however it will be difficult since not all the properties of land are the same value. Commissioner O'Toole also reminded the Council that the unit price being paid is for two years prevIOus. - Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19,2000 Page 14 Mayor McKelvey stated that what they are buying the land for and what it is worth a year later when it is developed isn't comparable. Comnússioner Grabowski stated that the problem is that the developer wants it now, but wants to pay for it the next year. He stated that the fee should be paid based on the price at that time. Councilmember Ortte1 stated that it is possible that we are coming into another economy where they don't develop for 5 years and if that were the case it wouldn't be a problem. Councilmember Orttel suggested the City could use an appraisal since something is needed that reflects 10% of the premarket value. Chainnan Lindahl stated that that the Commission wants to make sure there is some type of recognition for the multiples. Mr. Carlberg questioned what would happen if the developer paid at the time of the preliminary plat approval. Councilmember Orttel suggested that there could be an agreement to pay it or have an indexing to the year of construction. He commented that one thing to remember is that unique things have happened in the last two years in property values. Councilmember Knight stated that it is likely the same thing will continue for the next few years. Counci1member Ortte1 stated that the City owes it to the residents to get the full amount at the time the deal is made. Councilmember Knight suggested that the best time would be at the preliminary plat. Counci1member Ortte1 stated that the only problem is that nothing is legal until the fmal plat, therefore the developer can walk at anytime. Mr. Carlberg stated that there is some recording and documenting done before the fmal plat. Councilmember Jacobson stated that if the developer does the development in phases then there is no way they are going to want to pay the fee up front. Councilmember Orttel suggested that it be stated in the ordinance that the City would index at each stage. Counci1member Jacobson suggested the City stick with the unit price since it would so much easier and cleaner. He mentioned that the City has used the appraisals in the past and it wasn't worth it. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 15 Commissioner Grabowski stated that as long as its fair and its a reasonable price there shouldn't be a problem. Councilmember Jacobson questioned what would be a fair amount to charge. He stated that he feels the unit price is a better way to handle it. Mayor McKelvey stated that the Council has to look at it thoroughly because what happens if the developer comes back and says you are way off base, the City could end up with a lawsuit. Commissioner O'Toole suggested it be set to what the land is selling for in Andover. Councilmember Orttel questioned if $35,000 per acre is a good figure. Mr. Carlberg stated that it needs to be much higher. Mr. Haas stated that a lot of the problem is that the City doesn't see the fmal sales until the fmal plat, and the developer certainly won't tell us. Councilmember Knight stated that the City then has to go with the final plat. Counci1member Ortte1 suggested it be set at $1600 per unit or 10% per acre. Councilmember Jacobson stated that when the fees are set that is the time to have the discussion that way the Commission has more time to gather additional information. Commissioner Grabowski questioned Councilmember Jacobson on what additional information would he like. Councilmember Jacobson stated that he would need additional information to be convinced that 10% is the way to go. He suggested the Commission provide additional infonnation to show the land sales and what the price per acre is currently at in Andover. Mayor McKelvey stated that he prefers the 10% for the most part since the City has never had any major problems with the 10%. Counci1member Knight stated that he doesn't have a problem with either one. Commissioner O'Toole suggested the Council give direction to the Commission so they know what direction to take next., Councilmember Orttel stated that he is open to either. He mentioned that there are so rnany differences that it is difficult to get to the true property value. After looking at a map that was presented of the transitional areas of the City he questioned how one would know the value of the land. Councilmember Knight stated that the Final Plat would solve it. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes- October 19,2000 Page 16 Mr. Haas stated that Dave and I will meet with Bill and find out his opinion. He stated that if the Council can decide then he will report back to the Commission and give direction. Councilmember Knight stated that whether the City uses a per unit cost or 10%, he is fme with either as long as the bottom line is at 10%. Mayor McKelvey stated that with all the townhomes it might be better to stick with the per unit cost. Councilmember Ortte1 stated that the majority of these developments are going to have multiples, he stated that if the City knows how many multiples at the time the deal is made then it would work. Mr. Carlberg stated that the City would have to make sure the per unit cost doesn't exceed the 10% with the multiple. Commissioner Anderson stated that the Commission's concern is that currently the City is too low, and we are already putting in fewer parks due to a lack of funds. He stressed the importance of getting the proper amount in order to fund the parks. Counci1member Orttel stated that to his understanding there has been a decision by the Park Commission to only put in regional parks and not neighborhood parks. DISCUSS THE USE OF PARK CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT BUDGET Mr. Dickerson suggested that the funds be kept separate since sometimes the dollars are not spent where they should be. Mr. Stone requested the Council approve a 5-year capital plan. He stated that when they turn in the budget it should be covered out of the replacement fund. He mentioned that the parks department has done a great job in 2000. He also mentioned that he would like to see a budget set up a year in advance to assure they are purchasing the right things. Commissioner O'Toole questioned what the dollar amount was for capital spending. Mr. Haas stated that it was $30,000 for the Hidden Creek parking lot. Commissioner O'Toole stated that in reality the Park Dedication Fund has been supp1ernenting the improvements in the parks. Chairman Lindahl explained that what Mr. Stone is saying is that right now the parks department is bouncing between different funds because of an overall low budget. Mr. Stone stated that it is important to fmd out what the residents want before making the decisions. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 17 DISCUSS GENERAL MAINTENANCE OF PARK SYSTEM Mr. Stone explained that at this time he doesn't feel there is a need for another full-time employee in the Parks Department, however did recommend that the part-time summer help be increased to six people. He mentioned that currently they are budgeted for three. Councilmember Ortte1 questioned if the summer help consists of high school kids. Mr. Stone stated that they are college kids. Mr. Dickerson stated that he agrees with Mr. Stone in increasing the part-time help. Councilmember Orttel questioned where the funds would come from to pay for the help. Mr. Dickerson stated that he didn't think it would be a problem to work it into the budget. DISCUSS ABA STORAGE SITE Mr. Haas explained that staff recently met with Dale Lang of the Andover Baseball Association to discuss the office that is currently being used for storage of baseball equipment and the possibility of relocating the equipment upstairs at the Sunshine Park building. He stated that the reason the equipment needs to be moved is that the IS Coordinator and GIS Consultant will be moving into the office as their new workspace. Councilmember Orttel questioned who built the garage. Mr. Haas stated that the Andover Athletic Association built the garage. Mr. Haas explained that it is a temporary situation until the WDE site is completed. Councilmember Orttel questioned what type of equipment is stored. Mr. Haas stated that they store helmets, bats, etc. Mayor McKelvey stated that there was an incorrect statement made at the last Park Commission meeting. He stated that at the City Council meeting on June 3, 1997 there was a motion that passed renting the space for $400 pet month. He mentioned that the Lion's Club has donated money in the past, however at this point that donation might be lost due to the statement made at the last meeting. He suggested that people need to be careful about what they say. Commissioner O'Toole apologized ifit came from a member of the park board. Mayor McKelvey stated that it didn't come from a park board member but someone else that was at the meeting. Commissioner O'Toole questioned if it is possible for something to be worked out to allow the baseball association to use the garage. Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19, 2000 Page 18 Mr. Stone stated that there is no room at the Public Works building for any additional vehicles. Councilmember Knight questioned if there is any room downstairs that could be used. Mr. Stone stated that there is no room downstairs. Commissioner O'Toole stated that the garage would be more suitable. Councilmember Jacobson questioned who carries the insurance for the building. Commissioner O'Toole stated that the area should be kept confmed like the upstairs. Councilmember Orttel suggested maybe closing out the lease and using it for City purposes in the future. Commissioner Grabowski stated that the baseball association sure could use the space. Councilmember Orttel stated that he was talking more about the office than the garage. Commissioner O'Toole mentioned that there have been plans now for over a year to add on to the garage, however nothing has been done. Councilmember Orttel suggested it be looked into since it probably isn't a good idea to end up with a lot of little buildings all over the place. Commissioner O'Toole suggested there be a damage deposit to instill some accountability. Councilmember Orttel questioned what Commissioner O'Toole meant by a damage deposit. Commissioner O'Toole stated that it would be good if there was something for insurance. He stated that the garage is maybe a better place. Councilmember Jacobson stated that the City should use the space and if there is room available, then the baseball association could use it for storage. Commissioner Grabowski stated that his only concern is the inconvenience it will be to the baseball association, since they will have to haul it from place to place. Commissioner Anderson mentioned that there has been people driving up and down the path to get the equipment. He suggested something be done to prevent this from happening. He questioned how many keys would be given out. Mr. Haas stated that the only people with keys would be the director and the president of the association. Mr. Stone stated his only concern is that all associations should be created equal and possibly even share the building. --- Special Joint Andover City Council & Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes - October 19,2000 Page 19 Counci1member Ortte1 questioned if there is competition between the associations. Commissioner Grabowski stated that he doesn't care who would be using the storage site. Councilmember Jacobson questioned that if the City plans to move the City vehicles out then where would they be stored. He suggested that during the winter season the baseball association use the facility at Sunshine Park and then in the spring the City may want to close out the lease. ADJOURNMENT Motion by Orttel, seconded by Howard, to adjourn. Motion carried unanimously. The meeting adjourned at 10:25 p.m. Respectfully subnútted, Sara Beck, Recording Secretary TimeSaver Off Site Secretarial, Inc. .. . - - - --