HomeMy WebLinkAboutSP June 28, 2000
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'CITY of ANDOVER
1685 C!\OSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER, MINNESOTA 55304· (763) 755-5100 FAX (763) 755;-8923
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- ' Specia1Çity Council M~eiing...,W~dnesday. funè28. 2000
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Callto Order-7:00 PM
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, " Discussion Items,
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Hold Public Hearing/Ordinance '1 091§riowmobÙe~ '" ,.
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2. 'Discuss Street Lighting Policy,
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Adjournment ' "
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CITY of ANDOVER
SPECIAL ANDOVER CITY COUNCIL MEETING - JUNE 28, 2000
MINUTES
A Special Meeting of the Andover City Council was caned to order by Mayor Jack McKelvey on
June 28, 2000, 7:00 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown Boulevard NW, Andover,
Minnesota.
Counci1members present: Don Jacobson, Julie Johnson, Mike Knight, Ken Orttel
Councilmembers absent: None
Also present: City Planner, Jeff Johnson
Assistant City Engineer, Todd Haas
Others
PUBLIC HEARING: ORDINANCE 109/SNOWMOBILES
Council recaned the purpose of the hearing is to consider extending the current ordinance, which
bans snowmobiling in the southern portion of the City, for another year, to allow snowmobiling in
all parts of the City or to ban it entirely from the City.
Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Johnson, to open the public hearing. Mayor McKelvey opened
the meeting at 7:02 p.m.
? 3645 145th Avenue - noted the ordinance states they can snowmobile on Round Lake and
Crooked Lake provided access can be legally obtained. He asked what that means. Councilmember
Orttel stated it means they can ride on the lake but not on the streets to get to it.
The gentleman stated the sign in the park on Round Lake states no snowmobiling. Mr. Haas stated
that sign should have been removed. The Council authorized the parking of snowmobiler trailers
in that park. He win check on the sign.
The gentleman had documents downloaded from the DNR Web site about water basics, and he
provided a copy to Mr. Haas. He lives on the lake and disputed the lies spread about him that he
allowed snowmobilers to go through his property to access the lake. He stated that is wrong. He
also stated they cannot hear the snowmobilers on the lake, so those who are raising that argument
are stretching the truth. He hoped a good decision could be made about snowmobiling. Why can't
a trail be provided from the lakes north to be able to access the other trails without having to load
the machine on a trailer and drive further north? He would love to be able to ride from the lake out
of the City, Council discussion noted there was some effort on the part of the Trail Association to
get a trail from Round Lake to 161st Avenue, but they did not receive written permission from all
property owners involved. There were also some complications because of the new schools that will
be built in the City. The Council indicated they would have no problem with a trail provided all
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Special Andover City Council Meeting
Minutes - June 28, 2000
Page 2
(Public Hearing: Ordinance 109/Snowmobiles, Continued)
property owners give written permission to ride over their land. They also recalled a discussion of
the City finding an area somewhere along 161st Avenue as a location for a snowmobile park-and-
ride lot. Apparently that was not done.
The gentleman appreciated the support of the Council to consider a trail, again stating it would be
nice if there was a trail from the lake going north. Many people moved to Andover for the "country"
atmosphere, and many of them still like to get on a machine and ride to St. Francis, over the Rum
River or up to Mille Lacs.
Willis Langfeld. 2207 161st Avenue NW - asked why the No Snowmobiling line couldn't be made
at I 62nd instead of16lst. When the snow falls, it is like opening the flood gate, driving both ways
on both sides of the road. There are many families with small children along 161 st, creating a
hazardous situation. Council noted the reason for that line is to provide a clear demarcation across
the City for legal enforcement. Councilmember Johnson asked if the problem has increased since
the boundary was changed last fall.
Mr. Langfeld stated they have always had trouble there. It's the only east-west road between Hanson
and Round Lake Boulevard, and they start as early as 3:30 or 4 in the morning when there is a
snowfall.
Mary Milke. 18030 Uplander - is an avid snowmobiler and part of the snowmobile club. It would
be sad if all communities felt like this City does. Snowmobiles bring a lot of money to the economy.
There are good and bad snowmobilers,just as there are good and bad boaters. She felt snowmobilers
have been given a bad rap. Their club has raised a lot of money for charity and for the Rum River
Trail organization. She felt a corridor is needed through the City to connect to the Rum River Trail.
The Rum River Trail Association works hard to maintain their trails. As a landowner as well as a
snowmobiler, she can sympathize with landowners who have problems with snowmobilers. Most
of those are younger riders who snowmobile right after school. The gentleman wanted to push the
line to 162nd. She felt the Council needs to look at a plan for all of Andover, not just a part of it.
Bob Rudke. 14417 Woodbine - has been here for 28 years. They had a trail association that left the
water tower at Bunker Hills and went to Cambridge. They helped a lot in Andover. He can't believe
there is no trail system from Round Lake to get out to Cambridge or Elk River. In Elk River,
snowmobilers drive right down town. To get out of Andover, people must load their trailers and go
up to 161 st, then load them up again to bring them down to Round Lake. A trail association is
needed that hooks up to the Rum River Trail so everyone can enjoy snowmobiling like he did 28
years ago. If every City thought like Andover, there would be no snowmobiling. He was a snow
baron for 28 years, and they did a lot with Andover trails. The Sheriff's office would call them first
to help with cars on the highways. He felt this whole issue should be looked at again.
Bill Bye. 13723 145th -lives on the lake, but there is no place to go from there. He understood a
proposal was to unload at Round Lake, then ride through the City on a designated trail to get up to
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Special Andover City Council Meeting
Minutes - June 28, 2000
Page 3
(Public Hearing: Ordinance l09/Snowmobifes, Continued)
16lst but that it was dropped by the snowmobile club. The Council explained the trail association
had problems getting written permission from all land owners. There may have been some confusion
over where the trail would actually be.
Mr. Bye asked why the line is 161 st. Why not 143rd? Council explained the boundary was
determined by a task force made up of residents, a Staff member and Councilmember. It provides
a clear boundary for enforcement purposes, plus it is the end of the small lot urban area
Mr. Bye asked if someone were to do what it takes to get a trail system from the la.\:e north, would
the Council be willing to look at it and work with them. The Council stated yes. They did look at
Hanson Boulevard as a natural corridor, but there is no room between the walkway and the road.
Also, snowmobile traffic can only go the direction of vehicular traffic along Hanson.
Scott ? . 3408 1 67th Lane - is an advocate of snowmobiling. It is part of Minnesota's heritage; a
right that they have. They pay a lot of taxes, and there should be a trail system for snowmobilers just
as there are recreational facilities for other things. It would be a shame to lose that right because of
a few disgruntled landowners and because of a few people who don't respect others' properties. A
lot of people ride, and they ride respectfully. It is not fair for the people south of 161 st that they
don't have some way of getting north. There has to be a way to do that. Can they ride in the county
right of way? Out of the million dollars spent on park trails, there must be a way to utilize dollars
for a snowmobile trail. It's done all over the state, working in and around businesses, gas stations,
etc. The sewered area does not run west of Round Lake Boulevard, and only for a small portion on
both sides of the lake. The rest is 2 Yz-acre lots, which is the country. There should be some way
to utilize the boulevards of Round Lake Boulevard and to get down to Bill's Superette to fuel up and
patronize businesses before leaving to\,;TI. Champion Auto by Bill's used to carry items for
snowmobiles but no longer does so because people can't get to them with their snowmobiles.
Rich Bush. l60l4? - is a member of the Andover Sno Dragons. He heard that people just gave up
on the trails. That isn't the case. Because they couldn't get the property owners written permission,
he understood that this summer they were to work with the City to find City property, Has there
been any meetings to that effect? Mr. Haas stated no. He understood the Sno Dragons were going
to contact him. Council member Johnson stated it was thc Andover Trail Association, though the
Sno Dragons were doing a lot of it. She understood last time John Campbell was contacted, he felt
there wasn't anything workable.
Mr. Bush stated their frustrations this year were very high. They kept running into brick walls
because they couldn't get all property owners to agree. Once the schools come in, there may be more
of a corridor. They are still willing to work, but they need the citizens of Andover to get through.
He thought in last year's ban to 161st that there was a stipulation that they would try to work
something else out this summer. Councilmember Orrtel again recalled the discussion to find a park-
and-ride location for snowmobiling along 161st. Church and park sites were discussed. Another
suggestion was for an area around Pov's, but it became a problem riding along Hanson Boulevard.
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Special Andover City Council Meeting
Minutes - June 28, 2000
Page 4
(Public Hearing: Ordinance 109/Snowmobiles, Continued)
Also, the area through the City's park going northwest from Pov's was very narrow and a
neighboring property owner was not willing to give permission. There was also a problem with the
east-west trail from City Hal! because of a new residential development.
Mr. Bush stated the DNR has approved two-way traffic on county roads, but the county didn't agree.
In Blaine, they have the right to ride on Highway 65. He also wondered how many tickets were
written in the restricted zone last year. Councilmember Orttel understood they could only ride north
on Highway 65 out of Blaine. He didn't see much snowmobiling along Bunker Lake Boulevard last
year. Coul1cilmember Jacobson pointed out there was very little snow last year, so the number of
tickets may not be meaningful. Councilmember Knight wondered if someone was willing to contact
the property owners again for a trail between Round Lake and 161st. Mr. Haas understood all
property owners had signed agreements from Round Lake north to 161st.
Council member Orttel stressed the need for a park and ride somewhere in that vicinity. Also, riders
should be directed on trails going north out of the City instead ofletting them loose once they leave
a trail from Round Lake. Possibly going north on Hanson Boulevard ITom 161st would be workable.
Mr. Haas reported Captain Andersohn talked with the State's attorney who said that the DNR should
not have approved two-way traffic on major roads. It is not allowed within the right-of-ways, though
the DNR approvals might have been outside of those right-of-ways.
Mr. Bush stated from what he saw, the ban did not deter people very much, as there were
snowmobile tracks al! along Seventh A venue and Round Lake Boulevard. The Council also pointed
out there was an agreement that offenders would be given verbal warnings on the first offence
because of the change in the ordinance.
A member of the audience stated it sounds like people agreed to the trail and that the Council would
be agreeable if one where presented. He asked if the names of the property owners can be provided.
Mr. Haas stated the City would be able to provide that information from the GIS system. The
Council continued to discuss various scenarios of directing snowmobile traffic out of the City,
possible park-and-ride locations, including Hawk Ridge park, encouraging residents to work with
Staff on a possible trail and to obtain written permission from affected land owners. In response to
the question of possibly using Round Lake Boulevard, it was noted the southern portion has been
closed to snowmobile traffic for years. There is also a concern with safety on that road. The
preference was to get them off the road, again thinking everyone had agreed on a route from Round
Lake to 161st. The intent was that the trails through the fields would be fenced to keep riders on
the trails.
Roy Johnson. 168th and Verdin - is getting tired of getting $500 to $1,000 worth of damage each
year on his property because of snowmobilers. He has the police come out every year to document
the damage to his property. A school is being built up north. Many violate the ordinance by driving
on the boulevards. They tear out the grass. Whenever there is a half ineh of slush in the fall,
snowmobilers are running up and down the boulevards. No one drives on the street. He stated 30
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Special Andover City Council Meeting
Minutes - June 28, 2000
Page 5
(Public Hearing: Ordinance 109/Snowmobiles, Continued)
years ago he lived in Columbia Heights. They snowmobiled north. As the city developed, they had
tu stup snuwmubiling. At this puint, there shuuld be nu snuwmubiling in Anduver. He's lived at
this place for 12 years, and it is an annual problem.
Mr. Langfeld - stated when you invest $4,000 in a driveway and it is crushed the first year, it really
gets you mad. He stated the Council has to look at both the safety factors and the cost of repairing
damage.
111ere were questions fÌOl11 the audience about who owns the boulevards and what the ordinance says
about them. Some felt there is a definite lack of knowledge about the ordinance by many
snowmobilers. Mr. Haas slated technically the City owns the boulevards. Snowmobilers are only
allowed to use the city streets on the right hand portion next to the curb, not on the shoulders. They
are allowed to use the ditch on county roads. The maximum speed is 15 mph.
Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Knight, to close the hearing. Motion carried unanimously. 7:54
p.m.
Councilmember Knight stated he would like to see some trails established. Cow1cilmember
Jacobson suggested approving an ordinance with the same restrictions as last year with the caveat
that if someone is willing to pursue the establishment of trails in the southern area of the City, they
could do so within the next two to three months, then come back to the Council for approvaL
Written permission must be received from all affected property owners. He personally observed
violations of the ban in the southern portion of the City last ",inter, citing his encounter with an
irresponsible snowmobiler who didn't care what the ordinance says. There are others out there
doing the same thing, noting some of the things people have done to discourage snov,IDobiling
through their property because of the damage caused.
A woman cited instances of older people pulling out in front of her while driving a car. Does that
mean all older people should be banned from driving a car? They snowmobile all the time as a
family, and they do it responsibly. They should not be punished. Mayor McKelvey understood that
only a small percentage of snowmobilers are irresponsible, but the number increases with the
growing pupulation, Hc also undcrstood thc ordinanccs probably ",111 nut stop thc offcndcrs, noting
snowmobilers are still driving on the streets in Coon Rapids nearly 10 years after they have been
banned. He too felt a group should be set up to establish trails through the southern portion of the
City. A trail from the lake is especially needed. If done through the trail association, there is
insurance to cover them. Continued safety training for the youth may also prevent some of the
violations. Counci!member Johnson agreed the ordinance should be reinstated with the ban in the
southern portion of the City, and that interested people should look at establishing a trail system so
there is some riding allowed in Andover. The other option is a total ban on snowmobiling, but she
didn't want to see that.
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Special Andover City Council Meeting
Minutes - June 28, 2000
Page 6
(Puhlic Hearing: Ordinance l09/Snowmohiles, Continued)
Jlotion by Jacobson, Seconded by Johnson, to extend the same ban we had for the last season for
the upcoming season with the caveat if a group of individuals wishes to find trails within the City,
that we would be receptive to that; give them until September 31,2000, for any group or individual
to come back to the City Council with a trail route with the same conditions as last year, that the
property owners have to agree in writing to have a trail on their property. If they do that, the Council
will consider trails with the deadline of September 31. DISCUSSION: Mayor McKelvey argued
against a deadline, stating he would be willing to consider a trail whenever someone presented a
proposaL Councilmember Jacobson stated the September deadline gives them 90 days. He'd be
willing to change it to the end of October.
Councilmember Orttel suggested to simplifY this that the ordinance be written that allows
snowmobiles only on authorized trails. The City shouldn't care about any deadlines. Trails can be
established at any time. The motion does not address the issue of providing a park-and-ride location
in the middle or northern portion of the City. Another problem not addressed is that of snowmobiling
when there is insufficient snow. That is when the most damage is done to lawns, etc. Last year
someone proposed a provision be put in the ordinance that there must be at least 4 inches of snow
before snowmobilers can ride to prevent damage to the turf.
Councilmember Jacobson changed the motion to delete the deadline and put language to ride as long
as on an authorized City trail; make sure the same conditions apply when a trail is outlined that we
have written permission of the property owners. Second Stands. DISCUSSION: Councilmember
Orttcl reiterated the trails would be authorized by the Council and would be whatever it interprets
has to come back for approvaL Councilmember Knight asked if snowmobilers would prefer trails
to get to the Run1 River or to get north to I lighway 22. The residents stated both. Early in the season
they would want to go up to Highway 22 when the river is not frozen. Later in the season, they
would want to access the river.
Council member Ortte1 again stated the Council is willing to accommodate trails at any time that they
can be developed as long as the property owners agree and the Council approves them, He asked
about the issue oflimiting how much snow there can be. He didn't know how many inches was
proposed or what would be reasonable, nor did he know if it was an enforcement problem. Mr. Haas
had heard a base of six inches. Such restrictions have been done. It makes sense, because people
shouldn't be snowmobiling without at least four inches of snow. Mayor McKelvey stated the police
radio keeps track of how much snow there is.
Councilmember Orttel also noted that they are not allowed to ride snowmobiles with studded tracks
where there is curb. So people ride on the boulevard, which is not allowed. He wondered if signs
should be installed that there is no snowmobiling on the boulevards. Apparently many people don't
realize that. Signs could be made available to anyone in the City who is having problems with
snowmobilers on the boulevards. Mr. Haas stated they have the ability to make the signs. Using the
GIS system, they can track all complaints the last few years to see where the complains are coming
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Special Andover City Council Meeting
Minutes - June 28, 2000
Page 7
(Pl'hlic HearinIT' OrFlinnnN 109I<:nm;,mnb;¡e< Continued)
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from. Those areas can be signed as people request it. The Council generally agreed that is a good
iùea. It was also suggesteù Staff researeh what other eities are ùoing on restrieting snowmobiling
until there is a certain number of inches of snow on the ground and the number of inches used.
Mr. Haas stated he will bring that information back to the CounciL The Council encouraged those
in the audience who are interested in establishing snowmobile trails to contact Mr. Haas soon so
something can be done before winter,
Motion canied unanimously. 8:15 p.m.
DISCUSS STREET LIGHTING POLICY
Mr. Haas reviewed the street lighting policy, which has not changed since it was instituted in 1986,
Developers are required to install street lights and pay for them. The new property owners pay for
usagc and on-going maintcnancc, In 1999, the City billcd out approximately $127,000, which was
reimbursed by residents. The bill for the year 2000 is approximately $142,000. About 30 percent
of the City has lights. If the policy is changed to that $127,000 being paid by the City, the question
is where would that money come ITom. Those individuals who do not have lights would be paying
for those that do. The City of Dayton does not have a lot of street lights. Those usage and
maintenance expenses are currently paid for out of their general taxes, but over time they will be
converting to Andover's policy to charge the street light costs to the property owners. He then
reviewed his research on street light policies of the cities of Blaine, Ramsey, Coon Rapids, Ham
Lake, Champlin and Columbia Heights. Andover does pay for the usage and maintenance costs of
thosc strcct ìights on intcrscctions with county roads, but hc did not know how much that amountcd
to.
Councilmember Jacobson noted many people in the rural area have their own lights. which would
probably have to be discontinued. Would a policy of paying for usage and maintenance through the
general thnd mean the City would be obligated to install street lights in the remainder of the City?
Mayor McKelvey felt the street lights at the intersections with county roads are a public safety issue
anù shoulù be paid for by the City.
Councilmember Orttel stated if the entire City had street lights, the cost would be about three times
what it is now, but it would be the same benefit to everyone. So it would not be an issue.
Council member Knight agreed stating most cities that pay for the lights are fully developed.
Everyone can be billed if the city is entirely built up or ifit is entirely rural, but it doesn't work when
the city is half rural and half urban such as Andover. Mr. Haas stated he has handled all street light
issues and has never received a call or complaint except for Mr. Langfeld and for Hubie Smith, who
lives in the southern portion of the City. In Mr. Smith's case, it was a part of the Jay Street
development.
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Special Andover City Council Meeting
Minutes - June 28, 2000
Page 8
(Discuss Street Lighting Policy, Continued)
Discussion was then on the cost of billing individual property owners versus paying from the tax
levy. Councilmember Orttel felt there would be some cost saving by the City collecting the tax levy
and making one payment a year directly to Connexus Energy versus the administrative costs that are
built in for Connexus Energy to bill individual property owners. When the City gets to the point
of the majority of properties being lit, it may be more efficient to levy for the costs and pay for them
from the general fund. There would be some economies of scale for the City to pay the bill at that
time. He didn't think that was the case now.
The Council then agreed that with only 30 percent ofthe City being lit, it is more practical to keep
the current policy in place for now. Otherwise, those who do not have street lights would be paying
for a service they do not have. At some point in time there may be an economic advantage to having
the City pay the bill. No action was taken on this issue.
PROBLEMS ON ACCESS ROADIUPLANDER CUL-DE-SAC
Bob? . 2260 153rd - stated an easement was recently plowed to provide access to the farm fields.
Councilmember Orttel clarified Mr. Slyzuk gave up his service road and moved it to the north of the
new Woodland development. The road is for personal use.
The gentleman stated there is a lot of criminal activity going on in the back. They get through from
the cul-de-sac that abuts Uplander, so barricades were put on the cul-de-sac. Last night the
barricades wcrc brokcn dOV,l1 and pcoplc drove through thcm at 4 a.m. This concerns him bccausc
it abuts the back of his house and he has five children. The Council felt the property owner would
not want that activity taking place either. Mr. Haas stated he will have Public Works look at what
can be done to block off the access from the cul-de-sac. Council also asked for a report on what is
going on back there and what is being done about it.
,~fotion by Jacobson, Seconded by Johnson, to adjourn. Motion carried unanimously.
The meeting adjourned at 8:42 p.m.
Respectfully submitted,
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Marcella A. Peach
Recording Secretary
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