Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutWK December 15, 2003 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER. MINNESOTA 55304 . (763) 755-5100 FAX (763) 755-8923 . WWW.CI.ANDOVER.MN.US SPECIAL JOINT CITY COUNCIL/PLANNING COMMISSION WORKSHOP Monday, December 15, 2003 - 7:00 PM (Meet:Î1lg will be held in Council Chambers) AGENDA 1. Call to Order 2. Approve Agenda 3. Woodland 6th Addition 4. White Tail Ridge (north of 161" Avenue) 5. Other Business Items 6. Adjourn 1685 CROSSTOWN BOULEVARD N.W. . ANDOVER. MINNESOTA 55304 . (763) 755·5100 FAX (763) 755·8923 . WWW.CI.ANDOVER.MN.US ANDOVER SPECIAL JOINT CITY COUNCILlPLANNING COMMISSION WORKSHOP DECEMBER I5, 2003 MINUTES The Special Workshop of the Andover City Council was called to order by Mayor Mike Gamache, December 15, 2003, 7:00 p.m., at the Andover City Hall, 1685 Crosstown BoulevardNW, Andover, Minnesota. Councilmembers present: Don Jacobson, Mike Knight, Julie Trude Councilmember absent: Ken Orttel Commissioners present: Chairperson Dean Daninger, Commissioners Tim Kirchoff, Tony Gamache, Rex Greenwald, Dean Vatne, Jonathan Jasper and Michael Casey. Commissioners absent: None Also present: City Engineer, Dave Berkowitz Community Development Director, Will Neumeister Others AGENDA APPROVAL There were no changes. Motion by Knight, Seconded by Jacobson, to approve the Agenda as amended above. Motion carried unanimously. WOODLAND 6711 ADDITION AND WHITE TAIL RIDGE (NORTH OF I 61sT A VENUE) Community Development Director Neumeister explained at the September 2,2003 Council meeting there was discussion on the request for the 40 acre land swap at the request of Woodland Development. There remains only one outstanding issue, that being the single point of access to serve the 90 lot development. All other issues that were raised have been answered by the developer and reviewed by the Council with no major objections. Mr. Neumeister discussed the Planning Commission's meeting and staff report regarding Woodland Development 6th Addition with the City Council and Planniog Commission. Commissioner Jasper arrived at 7:05 p.m. A resident stated what Mr. Neumeister has delivered makes it sound like this is a done deal. He asked if they were going to defIne the purpose of the meeting. Mayor Gamache stated the purpose of -. --- Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 2 the meeting is to discuss questions that arose from previous meetings and questions the Planning Commission had. Mayor Gamache was curious if the drawing had answered the Planning Commission's questions at their October meeting. Chairperson Daninger asked if Mr. Neumeister could point out the changes to the revision. Mr. Brian Johnson, Hakanson Anderson Associates, showed on the drawing the revisions made and explained the changes to the City Council and Planning Commission. A resident stated there are thirty-three lots with driveways that will be backing up to a collector street. He asked how the City will handle the traffic. He stated if the City looked at this, they would stop and deny this item. Mr. Johnson continued with his review of the revisions made to the property. Commissioner Greenwald stated there is no doubt this land is developable and he wondered why the developer wanted to swap the land. He asked if there was any attempt to look at the other forty acres that was planned to develop at some point and did it make some sense to develop the forty acres at this time. Mr. Johnson showed on the map and discussed the two parcels ofland and stated the forty acres of land they want to swap is better farm land and Mr. Slyzuk would like to keep this land to farm at this time. He stated they believed the land is a better extension of the development. Councilmember Jacobson did not think they should be doing this right now. If the forty goes forward, the rest is in Ag. Preserve and they will be sitting there for eight to ten years with one access to the development. The Park plan also recommends a large park in the area and they do not have any space allocated for this in the development and future developers will not want to give up their acreage for a park either. Councilmember Jacobson stated by doing it this way, it is a cheaper piece of land to develop. The issue is of one way in or out for eight to ten years. He stated that the overall area because it is low, needs a general storm water pIan. There are soil constraints over the entire area. He thinks there are a number of issues and if they start piecemealing this and wait to develop the rest is not a good idea. Mr. Johnson explained the area comes out of Ag. Preserve in 2007 and he thought they were looking at a two or three year wait. Mr. Berkowitz stated the forty acres will be designated for Rural Reserve because there is not enough capacity in their sewer system at this time. Mayor Gamache stated Ag. Preserve does not restrict them from bringing the sewer through. Mr. Berkowitz stated this was true. Mayor Gamache stated if someone would want to bring the sewer -" Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 3 through, they could. Councilmember Jacobson stated they could not assess it to anyone. Commissioner Greenwald asked if there was another reason they wanted the land swap other than this is an easier piece to develop. He would support this but he wanted to know the reason why. Councilmember Knight asked what the time table would be on the ninety units and would it be staged. Mr. Johnson stated he thought this would be done all at once starting in late spring or early summer. Mr. Johnson stated the sewer is stubbed out. He showed on the map where the sewer stub is located. Chairperson Daninger explained why they denied the land swap to the City Council. Chairperson Daninger stated the Planning Commission is always concerned about a long cul-de-sac. He wondered what has changed in the plans from the Planning Commission meeting. Mr. Johnson discussed the ponding and stated they worked on the intersection at the request of the City Engineer. He showed on the map where a proposed pond and park would be located with a trail around it. Mr. Neumeister stated one of the things he recalled was how this area can be included in a master plan. From Staff's perspective, all the questions were answered except for the one way in and out and they did not think this needed a master plan done. If they were to hold back for a master plan of the area, there will be a lot of connections in the future and the developments will not be boxed in like so many other developments in the City. Mr. Berkowitz stated if this development were to go forward, they would still need a master plan to be developed. This does meet all of the technical standards. Commissioner Gamache agreed with Commissioner Greenwald and Councilmember Jacobson. They need the plan or something more than an idea of where the streets will go. They do not know what they will do with this area in ten years. Commissioner Greenwald left the meeting at 7:35 p.m. Councilmember Knight asked how they will handle the peat on the land. Mr. Johnson stated this will all be onsite filling and the deeper areas will be left as open land and the two to three feet of peat is adequate to handle. A resident stated he would like to have someone answer current concerns. He stated there are thirty- three lots backing up to the collector street and he wanted to know how they will address the safety concerns. The people with the thirty three homes will not be able to have visitors unless they park in the driveways because there is no parking on the street. He thought this development was too early. He is not against this development but he thought the timing is premature because the roads have not u Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 4 been developed adequately. Mr. Berkowitz stated as far as the transportation plan, this was already in the works before the development was discussed. He stated it is critical to get an east/west collector street in the area to move the traffic in and out and there is a point where they need to plan the collector street. The resident asked if this was too soon because the roads are already backed up and it will be another eight or nine years before the County improves the road. Councilmember Trude stated there is forty acres of sewer line dedicated to the MUSA area and it would be a waste not to use it now. She stated the developer asked the City Council if they would consider the property with trees to develop because it would be more attractive. She stated the developer does have a right to develop one of the properties. Commissioner Gamache stated one of the issues is the land they want to swap is not in character with the area and the land to the south is better suited to develop at this time. Mayor Gamache stated this is all Rural Reserve and will be smaller lots. This will all be developed at some time in the future. He stated Councilmember Trude made a good point that the land swap was for the preference of the land owner for farming. Councilmember Knight stated that no matter which forty acres they pick, they still have a problem of going through a fairly urban area. His problem is when this develops, they will be bringing in a lot of construction traffic and will there be another way to bring the construction in either on the power line road or on Mr. Slyzuk' property for construction purposes. Mr. Slyzuk stated the road does not go straight through to the development and it would take some improvement to get the road to go through. There is a lot of peat in the area and it will not handle the trucks unless sand is brought in. Councilmember Knight stated the questions he has been getting are from residents worried about construction trucks going through the neighborhood. He asked if the trucks could use the power line road. Mr. Slyzuk stated they could but this road is already being used by the residents in the neighborhood even though it is a private road. Mr. Westlund stated they could use the area that is stockpiled for access to the development. Commissioner Jasper stated it is unlikely that this area will be developed as a one thousand acre development. If it is done now or in six years, they will still have the same problems, they will only be postponing it. His concern is they need to plan for a park and a vision of the area needs to be made before development occurs. Mayor Gamache recapped the history and how the proposal for the development came about. Mayor Gamache stated at their November 3rd meeting, they asked Woodland for a sixty-day extension and wondered where this would bring them. Mr. Neumeister stated it brings them to sometime in January. Councilmember Jacobson stated the extension was for a preliminary plat. Mr. Westlund stated they agreed to a sixty day extension of a Compo Plan Amendment. Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 5 Another resident who lives off of 152nd stated Mr. Slyzuk has been a wonderful neighbor and he understands his wanting to farm the land. He understood this area was going to develop behind them but he asked everyone to figure out what is the most orderly development for the City. He encouraged them to look at this in this context. He stated he is not against the development. Commissioner Kirchoff supported this because the two pieces ofland are identical with one access in and out. He does recognize the concern of the traffic but he saw a difference in the north property compared to the south because they do have a roadway configuration that will be developed to the north. Mr. Berkowitz stated as laid out, the roadway will be a local street. Chairperson Daninger explained as more information comes about, it allows the Plarming Commission to make a better decision. They go by what information they have at the time. He was looking for guidance from the City Council regarding cul-de-sacs that are over five hundred feet. Mayor Gamache stated development in Andover is different because of the nature of land and the wetlands. Councilmember Jacobson stated if they have something more than five hundred feet, they need to look at the number of homes bordering on the road and if they require variances or not. Councilmember Jacobson wanted to remind the residents that the Comprehensive Plan Amendment needs to be approved or denied by January 15,2004. Mayor Gamache stated because Councilmember Orttel is not at the meeting, he thought they should move this to the January 6, 2004 City Council meeting because they would need a four/fifths vote to approve or deny the swap. Councilmember Knight stated it would make the residents of 152nd feel better if they knew there was another way to get construction vehicles into the development and he thought there would be. A resident asked if new homeowners or potential homeowners of the property around this proposed development could be notified of this item for the January 6, 2004 meeting. Mr. Neumeister stated he did not know if aIl the lots have been sold and there was a public notice sign posted on the property. Mayor Gamache stated they would move this item to the January 6, 2004 City Council meeting. Mr. Neumeister asked if the City Council wanted additional notices sent to potential and new homeowners. Councilmember Jacobson stated he thought most of the notices would go to the developer or builder. Mr. Berkowitz stated they could work this out. WHITE TAIL RlDGE (NORTH OF 161sT AVENUE) Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 6 Mr. Neumeister stated the developers of "Whitetail Ridge" have been working on a revised sketch plan for a proposed single family development located north of 161 51 A venue. Over the past month, the developers have been talking to the Council about plans that involved smaller lots than typical. Staff has not spent any time reviewing the concept. The developer has shown staff a new concept plan showing all single family homes over the entire parcel. This is 16 more units than was previously granted to the developers when the "Rural Reserve" expansion was approved earlier this year. They are asking for the City to consider their request for more units. Staff has evaluated this with the assistance ofWSB Consulting Engineers and there are only 10 additional units available and Council needs to determine which property owner should be allocated them. Mr. Berkowitz stated the additional ten UIÚts they reviewed were because they looked at Constance Free Church. They had so many connections to the church and as they expanded, the City realized they had extra connections. Even if they doubled in size, they would still have too many connections. Mr. Neumeister explained the developer's engineer has submitted a request to FEMA to have a flood elevation established that would allow them to develop the property without having to complete a hydrology study. FEMA has responded and indicated they will need to complete a full hydrological study before any development of the property will be allowed. This is expected to take ten months at a minimum to complete. Mr. Neumeister stated this development only has one way in and out also. Councilmember Trude asked if this would be forever. Mr. Neumeister stated he was not sure because they did not know when surrounding properties would develop. Councilmember Jacobson asked if Pentagon got all the units they wanted, what kind of cushion does the City need before they run out of units. Mr. Berkowitz stated they always like to be conservative and they are comfortable at this time that they have all they need. Councilmember Jacobson asked what the City Engineer felt comfortable with. Mr. Berkowitz stated it was theoretical and when they look at a theoretical basis, they look at it conservatively. Mr. Neumeister stated the other engineer at WSB looked at this also and they came to the conclusion that more people are conserving water and everything looks good. Ten additional units are all they can allow. Councilmember Trude asked if the hydrology study was the study the Council wanted done so there would not be flooding on other properties. Mr. Berkowitz showed a map of the area and recapped what FEMA wanted done for a study. Mr. Berkowitz stated the City was also requiring the hydrology study so the City feels comfortable to allow this development to continue. Commissioner Jasper stated on the economic side, the price difference is about $200 a lot and to take Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 7 this out of one development and put it into another development is not that large of a difference. Commissioner Jasper left the meeting at 8:31 p.m. Commissioner Kirchoff asked if the hydrology report would only study the development. Mr. Berkowitz stated it would include and benefit the entire area. He stated if the developer would not agree to this study, the City would need to know how to fund this study and if they would assess this. Mr. Neumeister stated they met with the developer on Friday and they asked them if the three larger affected parties would pay for the study on their own in order to move forward quicker. Mr. Leon Opatz made a presentation to the City Council and Planning Commission regarding Whitetail Ridge. He stated the County will allow only one access to the County Road. Councilmember Jacobson asked if the County required upgrades to the road in order to access it. Mr. Berkowitz stated there would need to be a turn lane into the access. Mr. Leon Opatz continued with his presentation. Mayor Gamache asked if they had discussions with Select Companies regarding their plans. Mr. Leon Opatz stated it has been all preliminary discussions. Mayor Gamache asked where Select Companies planned to develop. Mr. Neumeister showed on the map where their development would be. Chairperson Daninger asked on the collector street, what is the length. Mr. Leon Opatz stated it would be approximately a quarter of a mile. Chairperson Daninger asked if the plan was not to have driveways on collector streets. Mr. Berkowitz stated this was true. Chairperson Daninger still had a problem with driveways on a collector street. Mr. Leon Opatz explained their reasoning for having driveways on the collector street. He stated the big problem they have with this is the big constraints they have on the property. Mr. Berkowitz stated they have talked about this and there are not many choices. Mr. Neumeister stated there are a lot of issues that need to be discussed. Councilmember Trude asked if they considered developing the lower portion of the property with homes with septic systems and leave the upper part of the development for larger estate homes where people would have horses and wetland. The developer explained the collector street wouJd still need to run all the way north. Mr. Neumeister stated the collector street is in their plans. Councilmember Trude thought this development was too early if the land around it was not Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 8 developed. A resident stated when the Rural Reserve was plarmed, the peninsula going up was not what they understood was part of the Rural Reserve. She stated since they have lived there, they have seen two fIres in the area and the access in and out is a big concern to them. She stated north of 16151 is all two acres or more. A resident asked the size of these lots. The developer stated they are about a quarter of an acre. The resident stated a quarter acre lot and two and a half acre lots are a big difference. She stated being able to evacuate the neighborhoods is important. The developer stated that the good thing about this development is that it will bring fue hydrants into the development and will help with fire control in the northern area of the City. Mr. Larry Emmerich stated bringing fire hydrants to the area would be a good thing. Mr. Keith Risher stated as they look at this development, they need to look at the big picture. They have the intent to develop and if this development went through, the City would be shorting them by giving this development the ten units. He wanted this to be considered when the Council made their decision. Councilmember Knight asked if Mr. Neumeister could point out who would not want to develop. Mr. Neumeister showed on the map the residents who will want to develop and who will not. He stated all the properties within the thirty eight acres needed to be looked at. Mr. Emmerich stated he has done a wetland delineation of the entire parcel which includes all sixty- five acres and had an engineer come up with the areas that can and cannot be serviced. He stated they have a considerable amount of land that far exceeds the thirty eight acres. They have about forty nine acres that could be serviced by a lift station. Discussion between residents and developers ensued in regard to developing land and sewer capacity. Councilmember Trude stated the biggest problem she sees with this development is approving a parcel of land that has only one access in and out and the development is more shoehorned than anything else they have looked at. Commissioner Vatne asked how far the Master Plan will go. Mayor Gamache stated they were only looking at the Rural Reserve and they also have park issues. Councilmember Trude stated it may not make sense to have a collector street going through the area because of the type of soils. Councilmember Jacobson stated his concerns regarding this development include the access and the fIre potential to the area. They need to be fair with the sewer connections. The north extension of Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 9 the road does not connect anywhere for a number of years in the future. This is an excessive cul-de- sac for a number of years. The developer stated they need to look at the bigger picture and their development is the starting point and will have limited access until the other pieces are brought in for development. Councilmember Jacobson stated they do not have the sewer capacity to go north. Commissioner Gamache stated even if there is not a collector street, they still only have one access into the development. Mayor Gamache asked when they looked at this piece as part of the Rural Reserve, if they were intending on this being residential with sewer, it needs to be developed that way. What would they have to do if it is not feasible to do this and would they need to do a different type of development. Mr. Neumeister stated when the Met Council looked at this, they knew the City did not give them a total of 1,000 acres and other residents who want to develop may have a better plan than this development. He stated they need to study this more before a decision can be made. Mayor Gamache asked when they talked about the second access off of 161 st was this discussed with the Fire Chief. Mr. Berkowitz stated this was discussed but he did not recall what the Fire Chief said. The developer stated they have worked on this for over six months with the City and Planning Commission. They have designed the plat based on the information they received from City staff and the City. They purchased this land with the thought that the collector street would run through the property. He stated that they do not have a lot more answers than what they had six months ago. He wanted to know which direction they should go with this. The developer showed a conceptual sketch plan to the City Council and Planning Commission and discussed what could be done. A resident asked if the developer considered running the collector street along the wetland. The developer stated the problem with that is this is the best property because people want their homes backing up to the wetland for privacy. He stated they could also run the collector road along the railroad tracks. Chairperson Daninger thought the Planning Commission directed the developer to make the cul-de- sac five hundred feet long. He stated the Commission did give the developer guidance. Mr. Berkowitz stated they gave the developer all the information as to what is allowed and not allowed in the City. Councilmember Trude stated it may be a better idea to start with the lower section as stage one of the development and then come in later with the upper portion as stage two of the development and make the upper portion as more rural. She stated the City never thought the sewer would go up that far. She stated that whatever they do has to flow to the next stage. Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 10 Councilmember Jacobson stated the layout shown does not look too bad to him. The developer showed different plans to the Council and Commission and discussed the plans. Another developer suggested they split the units up on a percentage basis. Of the ten units available, they should be given six units and give the other development four units. Councilmember Trude did not think that was completely fair because both developments will need to install lift stations. Mr. Neumeister stated they did favor Pentagon Development because they have been ready to go and the other property is not. Mr. Berkowitz explained how they came about with the ten extra units. Councilmember Trude stated they should research this further to make sure it really is available. Councilmember Jacobson stated he would rather keep the ten units in case there is a problem. Mayor Gamache stated he is comfortable splitting this the same way they initially split the units. He stated he preferred the initial drawing also. The developer explained the benefits of developing the land. Mr. Emmerich stated he thought it was a mistake to allot future sewer capacity to one developer because they were done with their plans first. He stated he has enough sewer allotment for himself but his neighbors would not get any. Councilmember Jacobson suggested the developer use the one hundred units and then in the future when all of this is decided they could divide up the rest. Councilmember Trude stated the entire issue is the tracks and as this goes on, the collector road will get longer. Mr. Berkowitz stated they will have to decide if they will allow driveways along the collector road. Councilmember Trude stated they should make the road narrower and put in a sidewalk to make people drive slower. Councilmember Knight agreed with Councilmember Jacobson. Mayor Gamache asked when they would have their study done. Mr. Leon Opatz stated they expected it to be done and back within three months. Mr. Berkowitz stated until the study is complete they cannot review the plan properly. A developer asked if they were responsible for the entire study. Mayor Gamache stated it was his understanding they were working with the other developers in the area. Mayor Gamache noted that by the time the FEMA study is done and approved, he hoped the other properties would have their plans done and available for review. Joint Workshop Andover City Council Meeting Minutes - December 15, 2003 Page 11 Mr. Neumeister stated the water should be stubbed to the north because it would be a benefit to future development to the north. Mr. Neumeister stated Pentagon Developers will work on the hydrological study and Mr. Emmerich will work on their plans for their property. In three months, they should be able to see plans for the entire area. Mr. Emmerich stated he could get their plans done in that time. A resident asked if they will get notice of the next meeting regarding this. Mr. Neumeister stated they would. OTHER BUSINESS ITEMS There was none. Motion by Jacobson, Seconded by Knight, to adjourn. Motion carried unanimously. The meeting adjourned at 10: 15 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Susan Osbeck, Recording Secretary -. ---